What are the estimated figures of those who have the disease but show no symptoms? I have absolutely no idea but am genuinely curious.
I wonder how whatever the figure is compares to the number of people who right this minute are driving vehicles under the influence of drink or drugs? Why aren’t the government subjecting every other motorist to measures to protect them from these people? Oh yeah they are, patrol cops! Good luck with that.
maga:
Franglais:
What is the IFR for C19 please?between 0.5%-1.5% depending on country.
Miniscule.
Miniscule! ****
.
Herd immunity has been estimated about 60 to 70% for C19.
So that means about 40,000,000 UK citizens would need to be infected before a balance was achieved.
So you think that 400,000 deaths is “miniscule”?
Approximately 440,000 deaths were caused to UK military and civilians in the years of WW2. You think that “miniscule” number happening in a few months is acceptable?
That really would screw up the economy! Even if you don’t care about the dead and those who will have chronic respiratory problems afterwards think about the money!
.
Get your head around the figures!
the maoster:
What are the estimated figures of those who have the disease but show no symptoms? I have absolutely no idea but am genuinely curious.I wonder how whatever the figure is compares to the number of people who right this minute are driving vehicles under the influence of drink or drugs? Why aren’t the government subjecting every other motorist to measures to protect them from these people? Oh yeah they are, patrol cops! Good luck with that.
There has been a randomized test of UK population looking for C19 anti bodies. If no one else finds it I’ll have a look for it later.
I’ve got the memory of a figure…but won’t guess
Fair enough. Do antibodies stay present for life, or do they eventually disappear? Obviously I’m not medically minded!
Franglais:
maga:
Franglais:
What is the IFR for C19 please?between 0.5%-1.5% depending on country.
Miniscule.
Miniscule! ****
.
Herd immunity has been estimated about 60 to 70% for C19.
So that means about 40,000,000 UK citizens would need to be infected before a balance was achieved.
So you think that 400,000 deaths is “miniscule”?
Approximately 440,000 deaths were caused to UK military and civilians in the years of WW2. You think that “miniscule” number happening in a few months is acceptable?
That really would screw up the economy! Even if you don’t care about the dead and those who will have chronic respiratory problems afterwards think about the money!
.
Get your head around the figures!
I can’t argue with any of that. Short of a vaccine though, what’s the alternative?
compulsory masks at this stage of the pandemic is ridiculous. We’ve already gone through the peak and the decline without so they’re clearly not necessary.
So say this is a big conspiracy, that EVERY government on earth is a part of, what’s the desired result on their part? Because all I’ve seen happen is governments mostly make themselves less popular, mostly give themselves a vast amount more work and mostly store up huge government problems for the future with the economy. So tell me why they are controlling us this way as you think, seems highly counter productive to me. For most conspiracy theories I can get why people think them as they always believe in what is to them a believable reason behind it. Not to mention is also usually just concerning one or two governments or government agencies at most. This one is just ridiculous, supposedly every government on earth working in cahoots for no understandable beneficial result. And don’t come out with the control nonsense, not a good enough reason, be specific
maga:
compulsory masks at this stage of the pandemic is ridiculous. We’ve already gone through the peak and the decline without so they’re clearly not necessary.
Welcome to shambolic incompetent Tory Britain, are you a new arrival? 
the maoster:
Fair enough. Do antibodies stay present for life, or do they eventually disappear? Obviously I’m not medically minded!
Some anti bodies disappear quickly, some stay around. That’s why some vaccinations are one offs, some need boosters.
This virus is so new, it can’t be said yet how long they last.
. I’m no expert either, so will accept any corrections on what I say.
switchlogic:
maga:
compulsory masks at this stage of the pandemic is ridiculous. We’ve already gone through the peak and the decline without so they’re clearly not necessary.Welcome to shambolic incompetent Tory Britain, are you a new arrival?
And i’m embarrassed to say I voted these clowns in 
maga:
Franglais:
maga:
Franglais:
What is the IFR for C19 please?between 0.5%-1.5% depending on country.
Miniscule.
Miniscule! ****
.
Herd immunity has been estimated about 60 to 70% for C19.
So that means about 40,000,000 UK citizens would need to be infected before a balance was achieved.
So you think that 400,000 deaths is “miniscule”?
Approximately 440,000 deaths were caused to UK military and civilians in the years of WW2. You think that “miniscule” number happening in a few months is acceptable?
That really would screw up the economy! Even if you don’t care about the dead and those who will have chronic respiratory problems afterwards think about the money!
.
Get your head around the figures!I can’t argue with any of that. Short of a vaccine though, what’s the alternative?
compulsory masks at this stage of the pandemic is ridiculous. We’ve already gone through the peak and the decline without so they’re clearly not necessary.
The number of known infections lags behind any actions taken.
The drop in infections is becaus3 of lockdown. Without suitable measures why won’t it return to where it was before, and overtake those figures? To enable is to get out working we need to behave differently than before. We need to adapt to keep the infections down
I agree waiting for a vaccine could be too long, so lockdown must end. But doing exactly what we were doing before will surely result in a runaway increase.
Failing to take precautions could result in a 2nd lockdown that would be awful. Let’s just put up with these minor hassles. None of them are guaranteed magic bullets but all help chip away at the problems.
switchlogic:
So say this is a big conspiracy, that EVERY government on earth is a part of, what’s the desired result on their part? Because all I’ve seen happen is governments mostly make themselves less popular, mostly give themselves a vast amount more work and mostly store up huge government problems for the future with the economy. So tell me why they are controlling us this way as you think, seems highly counter productive to me. For most conspiracy theories I can get why people think them as they always believe in what is to them a believable reason behind it. Not to mention is also usually just concerning one or two governments or government agencies at most. This one is just ridiculous, supposedly every government on earth working in cahoots for no understandable beneficial result. And don’t come out with the control nonsense, not a good enough reason, be specific
You’re smart enough to know that with some notable exceptions (mainly countries we go to war with!) that governments do not run the world Luke. They are merely puppets acting on instructions. Some very powerful and increasingly wealthy people have taken that responsibility. Some people have done very well out of this pandemic, a certain Jeff Bezos (sp) himself pocketed $13 billion in ONE day alone recently!
robroy:
the maoster:
I’ll be wearing a mask. I have to if I want my life to have any semblance of normality, but I’ll be doing it with a heavy heart and under protest. I can’t help feeling that this whole thing has gone from disease prevention to people control and I have a mental image of some Doctor Evil type character sat in his mountaintop lair saying “watch what I can make the plebs do now!”If masks were even any part of the solution we’d have been wearing them since day one of the plague. Don’t give me that ■■■■■■■■ about how the science has changed, because it hasn’t! Any primary school child knows to cover their mouth when coughing or sneezing so I’m assuming that the greatest medical minds in the world may just have a clue as to why that is? Yet only today it’s been decided that we must conform mask wise to defeat Covid?
Control control control.
I swear that there are many people (lots on here too) who would defend a government fitting every household with “Covid cameras” sold on the lie that they are for our safety and are merely there so “they” can spot when someone is doing something likely to spread disease and then gently assist them in re education. The same people would defend it with “but, but, but it’s for your own safety” or “if you’re complying you have nothing to fear”.
Control, control, control.
I know exactly what you are saying Maost,.and I’d usually be the first to agree with you.
You know me, and know I ain’t the first to jump into line with any bullcrap dished out by any authority, but I’ve got an open mind on all this.
We’ve spoke about this and I’ve admitted that those weeks I was off furloughed, watching all the crap on Sky news (constantly) it did get to me, and made me think of the seriousness of all this…whether or not it’s as bad as they say, who knows.
When I got back to work, I did just go back into ‘normal times’ mode more or less right away, and changed my view a bit, you can’t really help it.
Many a time since I’ve been stood in groups, and I’ve been in pubs, but it has always been in the back of my mind to be aware and just a little bit careful, to be on the safe side …my own local has been named as a Covid hot spot ffs, so I’m thinking why take the chance just so I can gob off on TN being the hero saying ‘‘It ain’t gonna stop me’’.Way I see it is no matter how much of a drop in the ocean in terms of prevention it may (or may not) be, IF it DOES help, I’ll go along with it…not a problem., as I said, it does make people who are frightened just that little bit more confident…and I do get the ‘Control’ thing you mention btw.
Relating to my Auntie, I’d rather she was stood in a shop beside somebody in a mask, than beside Billy Bigbollocks saying ‘’[zb] ed if I’m complying’…way I see it if it stops a handful of people (my Auntie and my parents for instance) picking this sh up, it will be worth it.
Oh how easily you let yourselves be pushed about…
Cracks me up if one minute, someone moans about Boris, moans about Brexit, moans about anything not involving a Labour Government that isn’t coming, and yet when told to wear a mask by Boris all all people, whom I voted for, and likely most of my adversaries on here didn’t - “Ok, because me life would be impossible if I didn’t comply.” WTF?
The last vestige of getting me to obey any government edicts - even a government that I’d just voted for - was when I slipped through the furlough net.
No Furlough? Then I withdraw my compliance for anything that won’t now land me in actual jail.
What’s next? TV licence maybe…
The whole thing is ■■■■■■■■.
If I’ve got a choice of a shop that doesn’t enforce like Sainsburys announcing today, or Tescos that say “We’ll carry on acting with full government guidelines” - then the supermarkets themselves have managed to change my habits there…
I had to pick up a prscription from my local surgery yesterday. Receptionist comes to the door, explains that the doctor is working out of a third party location, and gives me the address to track doc down to get prescription handed over in due course. Bit of a wild goose chase for sure, but I couldn’t help but think "How does this prevent me coming into contact with more people than need be, not to mention an extra unncessasary journey to boot?
I’m not worried about Covid, and if I haven’t got it - others shouldn’t be worried about me not wearing a mask neither.
The amount of traffic on our roads, people clearly not “on their way to work”, but just out and about - shows me I am not alone here.
If anything, I would argue that “wearing a mask” identifies one as “Low Risk Tolerance” - and that’s about it.
…And to think a couple of years back people like me were called “Islamophobes” for wanting the right to wear a “mask” REMOVED… Now we seem to have lost the right NOT to wear one.
How totally inconsistent of this government to try and be “centerists” at a time like this, FFS?
Just after we’d elected the Tories to their unexepected “hang-on majority” in 1992 - John Major’s government subjected us to “Black Wednesday” where over a million people ended up having their houses re-possessed as the knock-on effect, never able to get another mortgage again, due to the damage to their credit ratings. The very birth of “Generation Rent” right there!
The public, regretting greatly that they could not now vote the Tories out until 1997 - suffered a relatively mild recession, that for me without a mortgage at that time - did rather well during.
With this Covid economic damage we’re self-inflicting rather than self-isolating here - you’ve got some people effectively on handouts - refusing to go back to work at all, whilst others like me - are forced to take any job they can get, because there’s no other work about, and I can’t take the chance of being sacked again by the next random lickcock that I happen to run into, who have not even got the guts to tell me verbally to my face, let alone dismiss me in writing, reasons or not…
I strongly believe that this Covid thing - is like worrying about catching a cold when one goes swimming, catching flu going to that family barb-e-q, or getting Bronchitus from smoking too much.
This coming Christmas will be very telling where the battle between dishonest workforce practices against “outsiders” like me - will likely pull more than one firm down the toilet when the scramble comes not for “agency workers just for Christmas” - but what happens when despite the shortage of work about - they can’t fill all the shifts required, “lack of drivers” rather than “lack of shifts for them”.
I reckon that loads of agencies will make the mistake of trying to palm Christmas workers off with even less than they got LAST year, only to alienate what few bods they still have on their books that have not already moved on by that point. I’m currently in a position where I don’t care if I never darken the doors of another agency again… But if they offer enough hard cash - I’ll still consider it of course. 
the maoster:
switchlogic:
So say this is a big conspiracy, that EVERY government on earth is a part of, what’s the desired result on their part? Because all I’ve seen happen is governments mostly make themselves less popular, mostly give themselves a vast amount more work and mostly store up huge government problems for the future with the economy. So tell me why they are controlling us this way as you think, seems highly counter productive to me. For most conspiracy theories I can get why people think them as they always believe in what is to them a believable reason behind it. Not to mention is also usually just concerning one or two governments or government agencies at most. This one is just ridiculous, supposedly every government on earth working in cahoots for no understandable beneficial result. And don’t come out with the control nonsense, not a good enough reason, be specificYou’re smart enough to know that with some notable exceptions (mainly countries we go to war with!) that governments do not run the world Luke. They are merely puppets acting on instructions. Some very powerful and increasingly wealthy people have taken that responsibility. Some people have done very well out of this pandemic, a certain Jeff Bezos (sp) himself pocketed $13 billion in ONE day alone recently!
If you’ve got your money “Invested” in whatever, then each market fluctuation from minute to minute monday-friday - will affect the size of your fortune.
This week has been good for most investments, so anyone already loaded WITH such investments - has finished the week millions up on where they were last week.
Jeff Bjezos - surely made his one-day $13billion “profit” from the rise in his stock price(s), not because someone bunged him an artic full of cash…
Can’t be arsed to read your post answering mine Winseer for obvious reasons.
I’ll just answer the first line of it…you don’t know me or anything about me,.and as per usual you are spouting unadulterated ■■■■■■■■ mate. 
robroy:
Can’t be arsed to read your post answering mine Winseer for obvious reasons.
I’ll just answer the first line of it…you don’t know me or anything about me,.and as per usual you are spouting unadulterated ■■■■■■■■ mate.
Funny thing is, I’ve just done what you just described here with regards to that long post of yours that I replied to… On reading it fully in retrospect, it seems we might actually be on the same page in more than one area that you mention… Shall we chuck this foil and cutlass away, and continue with longswords now? 
the maoster:
switchlogic:
So say this is a big conspiracy, that EVERY government on earth is a part of, what’s the desired result on their part? Because all I’ve seen happen is governments mostly make themselves less popular, mostly give themselves a vast amount more work and mostly store up huge government problems for the future with the economy. So tell me why they are controlling us this way as you think, seems highly counter productive to me. For most conspiracy theories I can get why people think them as they always believe in what is to them a believable reason behind it. Not to mention is also usually just concerning one or two governments or government agencies at most. This one is just ridiculous, supposedly every government on earth working in cahoots for no understandable beneficial result. And don’t come out with the control nonsense, not a good enough reason, be specificYou’re smart enough to know that with some notable exceptions (mainly countries we go to war with!) that governments do not run the world Luke. They are merely puppets acting on instructions. Some very powerful and increasingly wealthy people have taken that responsibility. Some people have done very well out of this pandemic, a certain Jeff Bezos (sp) himself pocketed $13 billion in ONE day alone recently!
Ah ok so it’s down to one man who already had unimaginable wealth* helping create a world wide pandemic so he can add to the already unimaginable wealth with even more unimaginable wealth, wealth that he doesn’t really have available anyway, and certainly didn’t ‘pocket’ unless he sells everything he owns and Amazon. Sorry, just don’t see it myself. Awaits mention of Bill Gates, George Soros & Sir Bertie Legohead
*(though worth nothing he and others are simply ‘worth’ x amount, they don’t have it in cash under the bed)
Winseer:
robroy:
Can’t be arsed to read your post answering mine Winseer for obvious reasons.
I’ll just answer the first line of it…you don’t know me or anything about me,.and as per usual you are spouting unadulterated ■■■■■■■■ mate.Funny thing is, I’ve just done what you just described here with regards to that long post of yours that I replied to… On reading it fully in retrospect, it seems we might actually be on the same page in more than one area that you mention… Shall we chuck this foil and cutlass away, and continue with longswords now?
Ok so I’ve humoured you and read it, …and you deduce we are on the ‘same page’? 
You’ve gone off on so many tangents in that reply, I’ll be honest with you mate I’m totally baffled at what point you are making, and how tf you say we’re on the same page.
Anyway mate if you say we are, …then we are.
And ''Foil and Cutlass?? …WTF are you actually on Winseer?
Winseer , I do concur with your valid point about pointless car journeys , it’s obvious to me as well they are not workers on commutes , it is mostly one person in the car , just the driver , going nowhere special causing a traffic jam and pollution , no shopping in their cars , you should see the long queues for McDonald’s and KFC down my way , did they all forget how to cook at home on lockdown ?
Franglais:
the maoster:
What are the estimated figures of those who have the disease but show no symptoms? I have absolutely no idea but am genuinely curious.I wonder how whatever the figure is compares to the number of people who right this minute are driving vehicles under the influence of drink or drugs? Why aren’t the government subjecting every other motorist to measures to protect them from these people? Oh yeah they are, patrol cops! Good luck with that.
There has been a randomized test of UK population looking for C19 anti bodies. If no one else finds it I’ll have a look for it later.
I’ve got the memory of a figure…but won’t guess
Dunno if this satisfies your curiosity?
ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation … 12june2020
As of June 2020, it seems that under 7% of the UK population show C19 antibodies.
If we were to look at the excess morbidity for this year…65,000 deaths above what we would expect… and scale up, assuming as before that 60-70% infection achieves herd immunity, we get very roughly 600,000 deaths due to C19 and its effects. Im not at all sure that is sensible projection to make though.
And here is FullFact
fullfact.org/health/19m-coronavirus-manchester/
Stories from May of this year suggesting that loads of people (30%) had already had the virus are not accurate.
The later ONS figures bear this out.
.
Some of the problem seems to be that researchers are making public their findings prior to any peer review. They are doing this with the best of intentions, trying to give a “heads up” to others in the field. It is an urgent problem.
Some news outlets are publishing this as “fact” without any caveats.
When the research is then reviewed and analysed it may be not as first thought. This isnt because the people involved are stupid or crooked! Remember the 3 blind men who encounter an elephant? The first touches its legs and says it is like a tree, the second touched its trunk, and says it is like a snake, the third its tail and says it is like a brush.
C 19 has been with us less than a year, and we are still feeling about trying to understand it.
Franglais:
As of June 2020, it seems that under 7% of the UK population show C19 antibodies.If we were to look at the excess morbidity for this year…65,000 deaths above what we would expect… and scale up, assuming as before that 60-70% infection achieves herd immunity, we get very roughly 600,000 deaths due to C19 and it
s effects. Im not at all sure that is sensible projection to make though.The first touches it
s legs and says it is like a tree, the second touched its trunk, and says it is like a snake, the third it`s tail and says it is like a brush.
C 19 has been with us less than a year, and we are still feeling about trying to understand it.
It’s very easy when all you do is focus on covid, here’s all the lives we’re going to ‘‘save’’. What about lives that are going to be lost or severely deteriorate in direct effect of practically all non-covid, non-emergency healthcare being suspended for how long now, 5 months with no end in sight? No one can possibly count those. People have been and will be impoverished because of the ruined economy (on a world scale but in the West in particular) and every study you want to look at shows a positive correlation between wealth and health.
I was with the whole ‘‘flatten the curve’’ idea initially but it has turned into one of the biggest betrayals against humanity.
