instructorone:
I didn’t say a Total of 6 hours…i said after 4.5 or 6 in total…(Whichever comes first)before the end of shift…ie, a normal shift that could be 9+…you shouldn’t have split the paragraph up, it wasn’t meant as 2 parts, it was 1…it should be read in its entirety.
I split it at the full stop, the bit where you came out with total nonsense on how much break was required…
instructorone:
I know i’m no good at putting it correctly… but i know what i mean…basically, 4.5 hrs driving, or 6 hrs including other work means a break…then continue your day, the break, if sufficient re-sets the clock…
Indeed, but you didn’t just say break, you claimed it had to be a minimum of 45 minutes, when in relation to the WTD/RTD 6 hours it is a minimum of 15 minutes. It’s stuff like that coming from trainers and instructors - and you put yourself forward as Instructor Number 1 so people would assume you know what you are talking about - which leads to all the confusion and BS about the regulations.
Thats not right either… 4.5 hrs driving, or 6 hrs including other work means a minimum break of 30 mins, under WTD. It seems we were both wrong… sorry…
No it isn’t wrong, if you do a shift of 5 hours 59 minutes with less than 4.5 hours driving
For example
Start shift 0800
0800-0830 other work
0830-1000 driving
1000-1030 other work
1030-1200 driving
1200-1359 other work
No rest is required but if you worked 1200 — 1400 before 1400 you would need to take a 15 minute break.
Now if you did
0800-0830 other work
0830-1300 driving
1300-1345 break
1345-1415 other work
1415-1845 driving
1845-1900 other work to shift finish
You would be ok as you have had your 45mins for driving and 15 mins for rtd (included within 45mins driving break)
It is 15 mins RTD break if shift is 6hours or 30 mins RTD break if over 6 hours shift but 30 mins can be split into 2 breaks if required but must be of a duration of at least 15 mins minimum.
When mentioning the tacho and RTD (WTD) regs I think you will find it much easier to seperate them and not put both into the same sentence.
Tacho regs - a driver must have 45 mins after accumulating 4.5 hours of driving time and that can be 15 mins followed by 30 mins
RTD (WTD) - a driver must Have 15 mins within (or at) 6 hours -
no driver may work more than 6 hours without a break and the minimum break is 15 mins
Breaks for either can be counted for both but be careful that the tacho regs of 15 then 30 are adhered to if split.
So although a driver must have both in mind they must be thought of seperately in their own right but can work together.
To be honest - most drivers that have a ‘normal’ type of driving day will automatically be within the RTD regs when the follow the tacho regs as the tacho regs are more stringent and usually require more break time than the RTD
instructorone:
I just checked out the new drivers hrs revised 2009, and it dosen’t even mention the 6hrs break in it…
i just looked and it says this
gv262 2009 page 43
Breaks: — Mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break. — If your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by
a break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes.
— If your working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break
or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes.
— Breaks should be of at least 15 minutes’ duration
Ah, thanks delboy, that’s what i was looking for, but i was looking around page 13…derrrr…
Breaks: — Mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break. — If your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by
a break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes.
I thought it was 45 mins upto 9 hrs. not 30… The second bit i knew. Thanks for finding it mate.
Giblsa:
It is 15 mins RTD break if shift is 6hours or 30 mins RTD break if over 6 hours shift but 30 mins can be split into 2 breaks if required but must be of a duration of at least 15 mins minimum.
Thats how I read them anyway
Not quite correct on a couple of points. It’s not the shift length which counts, it is the amount of work done during the shift. You could have a shift of 7 or 8 hours for example but because of POA actually ‘work’ less than 6 hours, in which case no RTD break would be required.
If you work less than 6 hours in total no RTD break is required, If you reach 6 hours work you will require a break, or breaks, totalling 30 or 45 minutes before the end of the shift depending how much work you total in the shift - 9 hours = 30 minutes in total, more than 9 = 45 minutes in total. You are correct in saying the required break period can be split as long as no part is less than 15 minutes, and because it can be split 15 minutes at 6 hours with another break, or breaks, before the end of the shift complies with the RTD.
We’re discussing the 6 hr break, not 5 hrs and 59 mins… and coffeeholic, i still think your wrong… , we are talking of a break at 6 hrs, not the end of duty, so we can safely assume the shift is 6-9 hrs, which means a 30 minute break.
Giblsa:
It is 15 mins RTD break if shift is 6hours or 30 mins RTD break if over 6 hours shift but 30 mins can be split into 2 breaks if required but must be of a duration of at least 15 mins minimum.
Thats how I read them anyway
Not quite correct on a couple of points. It’s not the shift length which counts, it is the amount of work done during the shift. You could have a shift of 7 or 8 hours for example but because of POA actually ‘work’ less than 6 hours, in which case no RTD break would be required.
If you work less than 6 hours in total no RTD break is required, If you reach 6 hours work you will require a break, or breaks, totalling 30 or 45 minutes before the end of the shift depending how much work you total in the shift - 9 hours = 30 minutes in total, more than 9 = 45 minutes in total. You are correct in saying the required break period can be split as long as no part is less than 15 minutes, and because it can be split 15 minutes at 6 hours with another break, or breaks, before the end of the shift complies with the RTD.
so in effect you could work a 8.59 hour shift starting at 0800 do 30 minutes other work then take a 30 minute break while waiting to load and you will be clear for the rest of your shift (as long as you dont go over 4.5 hours driving) and dont do equal to or more than 9 hours, but if you reach the bang on 9 hours you would need another 15 before the end of your shift effectively a 9.16 shift (30 minutes break at start of shift then work 9 hours (as long as driving isnt over 4.5 all day) 15 minute break (as you have gone over 9 hours) and 1 minute other work to clock off?)
dangerousdave:
Been told today that night workers, from 1st Aug this year, only allowed to be at work for a max 48 hour week inclsive of breaks, poa etc.
Surely this cant be true??
If I work nights and drive for 4 hours, take 4 hours rest and then drive for 4 hours, surely I am working 8 and not 12 and therefore can work 5 days (8x5=40) rather than have it count as 5x12=60■■?
I’m sure someone must have this wrong, Surely they mean WORKING time still and not working time, standby time, rest and poa altogether?
I mean how would that work with tramping where they are away from home all week, surely they can do more than 2 nights (48 hours).
Can someone please clarify??
was talking to one of our drivers the other day and he said the night shift drivers had been told there was to be no more 15 hr shifts worked on a night, dont know whether this was to do with what your on about , or they just dont want to pay 15 hrs at night rate
instructorone:
We’re discussing the 6 hr break, not 5 hrs and 59 mins… and coffeeholic, i still think your wrong… , we are talking of a break at 6 hrs, not the end of duty, so we can safely assume the shift is 6-9 hrs, which means a 30 minute break.
Yes indeed it does, 30 minutes in total interrupting the work during that shift. There are three things to consider with regard to this required break.
It must interrupt the work, so it cannot be taken at the end of the shift.
It can be taken in one block of at least 30 minutes or two blocks of at least 15 minutes each.
You must not work more than 6 hours without a break.
The regulations only make two stipulations as to when the break must be taken, at least part of it must be taken to ensure no more than 6 hours work is done without a break and it must interrupt the work.
Here is the wording from the regulations regarding break.
Breaks 7. - (1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break. (2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time. (3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period. (4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
No where in that does it state 30 minutes must be taken at the 6 hour work point.
Giblsa:
It is 15 mins RTD break if shift is 6hours or 30 mins RTD break if over 6 hours shift but 30 mins can be split into 2 breaks if required but must be of a duration of at least 15 mins minimum.
Thats how I read them anyway
Not quite correct on a couple of points. It’s not the shift length which counts, it is the amount of work done during the shift. You could have a shift of 7 or 8 hours for example but because of POA actually ‘work’ less than 6 hours, in which case no RTD break would be required.
If you work less than 6 hours in total no RTD break is required, If you reach 6 hours work you will require a break, or breaks, totalling 30 or 45 minutes before the end of the shift depending how much work you total in the shift - 9 hours = 30 minutes in total, more than 9 = 45 minutes in total. You are correct in saying the required break period can be split as long as no part is less than 15 minutes, and because it can be split 15 minutes at 6 hours with another break, or breaks, before the end of the shift complies with the RTD.
so in effect you could work a 8.59 hour shift starting at 0800 do 30 minutes other work then take a 30 minute break while waiting to load and you will be clear for the rest of your shift (as long as you dont go over 4.5 hours driving) and dont do equal to or more than 9 hours, but if you reach the bang on 9 hours you would need another 15 before the end of your shift effectively a 9.16 shift (30 minutes break at start of shift then work 9 hours (as long as driving isnt over 4.5 all day) 15 minute break (as you have gone over 9 hours) and 1 minute other work to clock off?)
No, you cant go over the 6 hr rule without taking another break…so by 2.30, you must have another 30 minute break.
Giblsa:
so in effect you could work a 8.59 hour shift starting at 0800 do 30 minutes other work then take a 30 minute break while waiting to load and you will be clear for the rest of your shift (as long as you dont go over 4.5 hours driving) and dont do equal to or more than 9 hours,
And don’t reach 6 hours total work since the 30 minute break
Giblsa:
but if you reach the bang on 9 hours you would need another 15 before the end of your shift effectively a 9.16 shift (30 minutes break at start of shift then work 9 hours (as long as driving isnt over 4.5 all day) 15 minute break (as you have gone over 9 hours) and 1 minute other work to clock off?)
No, you wouldn’t need it 9 hours into your shift, 17:00 in your example, as the 30 minutes break you took doesn’t count as working time so it would be 17:30. But, to reach that point from 09:00, when your break finished, without triggering a 15 minute WTD break for 6 hours work you must have clocked some POA, about 2.5 hours, and as POA doesn’t count as working time that would make it 20:00 before a break would be needed. With no POA you would need 15 minutes at 15:00.
Remember it’s not the shift length which triggers the break(s) but the amount of work - total of driving and other work.
before anyone ask where am i, am not getting involved i think it was 30 post for me last time so not going down that one again my head still hurts from last time
Giblsa:
so in effect you could work a 8.59 hour shift starting at 0800 do 30 minutes other work then take a 30 minute break while waiting to load and you will be clear for the rest of your shift (as long as you dont go over 4.5 hours driving) and dont do equal to or more than 9 hours, but if you reach the bang on 9 hours you would need another 15 before the end of your shift effectively a 9.16 shift (30 minutes break at start of shift then work 9 hours (as long as driving isnt over 4.5 all day) 15 minute break (as you have gone over 9 hours) and 1 minute other work to clock off?)
No, you cant go over the 6 hr rule without taking another break…so by 2.30, you must have another 30 minute break.
14:30 is only 5.5 hours from when he resumed work after his 30 minute break so another break would not be required then, it would be 15:00 at the earliest. He would also only require 15 minutes at that point, not 30.
instructorone:
We’re discussing the 6 hr break, not 5 hrs and 59 mins… and coffeeholic, i still think your wrong… , we are talking of a break at 6 hrs, not the end of duty, so we can safely assume the shift is 6-9 hrs, which means a 30 minute break.
Yes indeed it does, 30 minutes in total interrupting the work during that shift. There are three things to consider with regard to this required break.
It must interrupt the work, so it cannot be taken at the end of the shift.
It can be taken in one block of at least 30 minutes or two blocks of at least 15 minutes each.
You must not work more than 6 hours without a break.
The regulations only make two stipulations as to when the break must be taken, at least part of it must be taken to ensure no more than 6 hours work is done without a break and it must interrupt the work.
Here is the wording from the regulations regarding break.
Breaks 7. - (1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break. (2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time. (3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period. (4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.
No where in that does it state 30 minutes must be taken at the 6 hour work point.
7. - (1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break. Its known as the 6 hr break because it must be taken by the time the 6 hrs comes round.
instructorone:
7. - (1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
Its known as the 6 hr break because it must be taken by the time the 6 hrs comes round.
Err, yes, no one is disputing that you need a break at 6 hours work. What’s your point?
That says a break, it doesn’t say how long that break must be, to find that out you need to look at section 7 (4) and when you do you see a break can be 15 minutes.
Giblsa:
so in effect you could work a 8.59 hour shift starting at 0800 do 30 minutes other work then take a 30 minute break while waiting to load and you will be clear for the rest of your shift (as long as you dont go over 4.5 hours driving) and dont do equal to or more than 9 hours, but if you reach the bang on 9 hours you would need another 15 before the end of your shift effectively a 9.16 shift (30 minutes break at start of shift then work 9 hours (as long as driving isnt over 4.5 all day) 15 minute break (as you have gone over 9 hours) and 1 minute other work to clock off?)
No, you cant go over the 6 hr rule without taking another break…so by 2.30, you must have another 30 minute break.
14:30 is only 5.5 hours from when he resumed work after his 30 minute break so another break would not be required then, it would be 15:00 at the earliest. He would also only require 15 minutes at that point, not 30.
sorry, thats correct, i got his other work and break back to front.
mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break,
if your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a
break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes,
if your working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break
or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes,
breaks should be of at least 15 minutes duration.
In the interest of safety, and as a matter of good practice, it is strongly recommended that
breaks should be distributed evenly throughout the day.
When taking a break, drivers may not perform anything that might be regarded as “other
work” during this period. Breaks taken under these Regulations may be taken at the
workstation (typically this means the driver’s cab - but see glossary for fuller definition of this
and other terms).
Examples of Breaks: 3
½ hour other work + 4½ hour driving triggers a 45 minute break under European drivers’
hours rules. Another 4½ hours driving triggers another 45 minute break under European
drivers’ hours rules. 9½ hours of working under the Regulations would normally require 45
minutes break, but this has already been covered by the breaks taken under the European
drivers’ hours rules. Total break time = 90 minutes.
4 hours other work + 2 hours driving triggers a break (30 minutes in this case) under the
Regulations. Another 3 hours work (9 hours in total) and another 15 minute break is needed
under the Regulations. There is no requirement to take any breaks under the European drivers’
hours rules as total driving time has not reached 4 ½ hours. Total daily break time = 45
minutes.
3 hours driving + 2 hours other work + 1 hour driving will trigger a break (30 minutes in
this case) under the Regulations. Another ½ hour of driving = 4½ hours driving, requiring
another 30 minute break under the European drivers’ hours rules. This is because the second
half of a split break taken under the European drivers’ hours rules (which always takes
precedent) must be at least 30 minutes long. Daily break time = 60 minutes.
3 hours driving + 2 hours period of availability + 3 hour other work triggers a break
requirement under the Regulations (30 minutes in this case). Another 1½ hours of driving =
4½ hours driving, requiring a 30 minute break under the European drivers’ hours rules. Again,
this is because the second half of a split break taken under the European drivers’ hours rules
(which always takes precedent) must be at least 30 minutes long. Daily break = 60 minutes.
NB If all the conditions for a break are met, then a driver could take his mandatory break
during the PoA.
The examples below shows two mobile workers A and B both working for 9 hours which
means that their working time must be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling 30 minutes.
The first example complies with the break requirements under the Regulations, the second
does not.
Mobile worker A
6 hours consecutive other work triggers the break requirement under the Regulations. A break
of at least 15 minutes must be taken. Mobile worker A then does another 2 hours other work,
takes a break for 15 minutes and then completes another hour of other work before ending
their shift. This complies with the Regulations as their working time is interrupted by breaks
totalling 30 minutes.
Mobile worker B
6 hours consecutive other work triggers the break requirement under the Regulations. A break
of at least 15 minutes must be taken. Mobile worker B then does another 3 hours other work
before taking his second 15 minute break at the end of their shift. This does not comply with
the Regulations as their working time has not been interrupted by breaks totalling 30 minute.
It has only been interrupted by a break of 15 minutes.
3 Note: If “other work” consists of driving under UK Drivers’ Hours rules, then additional
break requirements may apply.
Err, yes, no one is disputing that you need a break at 6 hours work. What’s your point?
[/quote]
Merely answered you:
No where in that does it state 30 minutes must be taken at the 6 hour work point.
Coffeeholic:
instructorone: 7. - (1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break. Its known as the 6 hr break because it must be taken by the time the 6 hrs comes round. [/quote] [/quote]
but i know what i mean…basically, 4.5 hrs driving, or 6 hrs including other work means a break…then continue your day, the break, if sufficient re-sets the clock…
4.5 hrs driving, or 6 hrs including other work means a minimum break of 30 mins, under WTD. It seems we were both wrong… sorry…
The second bit i knew. 
Thanks for finding it mate.
, we are talking of a break at 6 hrs, not the end of duty, so we can safely assume the shift is 6-9 hrs, which means a 30 minute break.
