Been told today that night workers, from 1st Aug this year, only allowed to be at work for a max 48 hour week inclsive of breaks, poa etc.
Surely this cant be true??
If I work nights and drive for 4 hours, take 4 hours rest and then drive for 4 hours, surely I am working 8 and not 12 and therefore can work 5 days (8x5=40) rather than have it count as 5x12=60■■?
I’m sure someone must have this wrong, Surely they mean WORKING time still and not working time, standby time, rest and poa altogether?
I mean how would that work with tramping where they are away from home all week, surely they can do more than 2 nights (48 hours).
Can someone please clarify??
its a new one on me and i hope its a mistake. this would be a disaster for a lot of companies, especially those that do overnight trunking like the job i did last night. business post run double man trunks 5 nights a week. as most wagons are on 12 hour shifts, instead of 6 hours per driver per night it would double even though they spend half the shift on the bunk meaning a 4 day week for the drivers and the company having to cover the 5th night somehow 
dangerousdave:
Been told today that night workers, from 1st Aug this year, only allowed to be at work for a max 48 hour week inclsive of breaks, poa etc.
Surely this cant be true??
Don’t panic, it’s not true. It is simply drivers hearing about proposed changes to one set of rules, the WTD which doesn’t apply to us, and applying them to a different set of rules, the RTD which does. We don’t work under the WTD, we work under the RTD, only one letter different but a lot different rule wise. 
The proposed changes were to remove the opt out from the WTD and also to count all time spent at work, including breaks, to be counted as working time and would have affected people such as junior doctors who can do shifts of 24+ hours but spend part of that time asleep on call. Agreement couldn’t be reached and the talks broke down at the end of April so nothing changes.
Even if the proposed changes had passed it wouldn’t have affected us as the WTD and the RTD are different pieces of legislation and a different debate would be required to make changes to the RTD and at the moment there are no moves to alter the RTD.
Coffeeholic
When does this RTD /WTD come into force for those of us that are self employed , im pretty sure that it was supposed to be sometime this year
Shame its not ture I would love to see this enforced sooner rather than later.
Blissy:
When does this RTD /WTD come into force for those of us that are self employed , im pretty sure that it was supposed to be sometime this year
March 2009 was the proposed date for it but I’ve searched and found nothing current to indicate that it has actually come into force
Cheers Rog
Its going to be a pain when it does finally come in , im a self employed owner driver and work nights so I would imagine i will be able to opt out of the night shift permitted hours…reckon I should start to take a serious look at these rules now for when they do come in
aren’t they trying to bring a european limit in for all workers at 48 hours?
Cynic-al:
aren’t they trying to bring a european limit in for all workers at 48 hours?
For which set of rules - the WTD or RTD - there are two different sets of rules as coffeeholic pointed out - many get the two sets mixed up
For mobile workers such as LGV drivers it’s the RTD rules
Cynic-al:
aren’t they trying to bring a european limit in for all workers at 48 hours?
For the WTD they were but as I said above talks broke down at the end of April and then with the European elections looming in June there wasn’t time to start new talks. They may try again at some time but that won’t apply to us if they do finally get it through.
Blissy:
Cheers Rog
Its going to be a pain when it does finally come in , im a self employed owner driver and work nights so I would imagine i will be able to opt out of the night shift permitted hours…reckon I should start to take a serious look at these rules now for when they do come in
Don’t worry about it, no one polices it anyway and even if they do start to there are no penalties at first, it will be education as to where you are going wrong rather than fines or such. Even the French, who do like to relieve drivers of handfuls of Euro, given half a chance, never check what you have worked in relation to the WTD/RTD when they operate a control, they only check regarding the tacho rules.
Coffeeholic:
dangerousdave:
Been told today that night workers, from 1st Aug this year, only allowed to be at work for a max 48 hour week inclsive of breaks, poa etc.
Surely this cant be true??Don’t panic, it’s not true. It is simply drivers hearing about proposed changes to one set of rules, the WTD which doesn’t apply to us, and applying them to a different set of rules, the RTD which does. We don’t work under the WTD, we work under the RTD, only one letter different but a lot different rule wise.
The proposed changes were to remove the opt out from the WTD and also to count all time spent at work, including breaks, to be counted as working time and would have affected people such as junior doctors who can do shifts of 24+ hours but spend part of that time asleep on call. Agreement couldn’t be reached and the talks broke down at the end of April so nothing changes.
Even if the proposed changes had passed it wouldn’t have affected us as the WTD and the RTD are different pieces of legislation and a different debate would be required to make changes to the RTD and at the moment there are no moves to alter the RTD.
Ok so I take it RTD is Road Transport Directive and WTD is Working Time Directive??
I’m guessing the company bloke I was talking to has it round his neck then?
I said he must be wrong cos if you were only allowed to work 48 hours inclusive half the country would stop. I remember reading somewhere that retained firefighters were kicking off as it may have affected them but they have exemption.
Just out of curiousity does that mean all ‘normal’ workers will soon only be allowed to do 48 hours and there is no opt out clause?? I know loads of people who have a full time job over 48 hours or a FT at 40 and a PT at 16 or so.
With the state of the country and stuff loads of people bneed to work over 48 hours just to put food on the table, what happens to them?
So I can still do 5 12 hour shifts wih a 4 hour rest mid way through them until the RTD law is changed■■?
dangerousdave:
So I can still do 5 12 hour shifts wih a 4 hour rest mid way through them until the RTD law is changed■■?
If that is done every week - YES as it is only an AVERAGE of 40 hours
Remember that the RTD is an average of 48 hours over a fixed period of weeks and not 48 per week maximum
Yeah cos you can drive 56 one week, thanks. I just had a horrible feeling that my boss was going to suddenly tell me next month that my hours and money had been cut again.
dangerousdave:
Just out of curiousity does that mean all ‘normal’ workers will soon only be allowed to do 48 hours and there is no opt out clause??
No, because as I said above the talks broke down so at the moment there are no changes pending, and it will be a good while before talks restart, agreement is reached - if at all - and the legislation amended.
dangerousdave:
So I can still do 5 12 hour shifts wih a 4 hour rest mid way through them until the RTD law is changed■■?
Correct, and there has not even been any hint of changes to the RTD so that would be even further off than changes to the WTD. In fact it isn’t likely to happen as we already have one set of rules limiting how much we can work, which most people don’t have.
dangerousdave:
Yeah cos you can drive 56 one week, thanks. I just had a horrible feeling that my boss was going to suddenly tell me next month that my hours and money had been cut again.
My guess -
Either your boss does not know anything about the RTD (WTD) or he does and is banking on the fact that others don’t in order to bring in changes…
jammymutt:
Shame its not true I would love to see this enforced sooner rather than later.
Why 
it would severely limit what you could earn 
Coffeeholic:
Blissy:
Cheers Rog
Its going to be a pain when it does finally come in , im a self employed owner driver and work nights so I would imagine i will be able to opt out of the night shift permitted hours…reckon I should start to take a serious look at these rules now for when they do come inDon’t worry about it, no one polices it anyway and even if they do start to there are no penalties at first, it will be education as to where you are going wrong rather than fines or such. Even the French, who do like to relieve drivers of handfuls of Euro, given half a chance, never check what you have worked in relation to the WTD/RTD when they operate a control, they only check regarding the tacho rules.
hi Neil
well i can tell you your wrong,(vosa mite not do much i know at the mo) a company i worked for was well up on the RTD and when the 17 week reference period roll up and some of the drivers were working more hours and cos there where paid overtime there were sent home without pay some had to have 2 weeks off to make there hours back on track, and in my contract it said (you may do overtime but if your hours do not meet the RTD will will send you home without pay unless you are a salaried employee) there may not be any comeback on the RTD yet but if you are not following it as a driver it also your responsibility to monitor you RTD as well as the company
i had an interview last week for multi drop driver and the employer asked me am i fully aware of the RTD as some of the drivers with us now are missing there 6 hour rule brake and getting us in trouble (what he meant by that who knows)as some day your total driver time can be less than 4.5 hours all day as some of are deliveries are in office blocks and you could be on other work for must of the day (it was delivering office supplies) did not get it to much experience 
IE class 1
jammymutt:
Shame its not true I would love to see this enforced sooner rather than later.
merc0447:
Whyit would severely limit what you could earn
I agree - it would only be beneficial if a LGV minimum wage was introduced at the same time and that aint likely to happen…
delboytwo:
hi Neilwell i can tell you your wrong,(vosa mite not do much i know at the mo)
Err, no that’s not wrong. Initial enforcement is likely to be by education rather than penalty. And if VOSA aren’t doing much about it at the moment that tells you all you need to know,they are the organisation charged with policing it after all.
delboytwo:
a company i worked for was well up on the RTD and when the 17 week reference period roll up and some of the drivers were working more hours and cos there where paid overtime there were sent home without pay some had to have 2 weeks off to make there hours back on track, and in my contract it said (you may do overtime but if your hours do not meet the RTD will will send you home without pay unless you are a salaried employee) there may not be any comeback on the RTD yet but if you are not following it as a driver it also your responsibility to monitor you RTD as well as the company
How does that make what I said wrong then? That is simply a company ensuring drivers comply with it and doesn’t change the fact that any breaches discovered would likely be dealt with by education initially and not penalties. It’s also an excellent way for a company to save money on the wage bill when work is a bit slack by telling the driver he isn’t getting paid when they could send him home and still pay him. They simply are using the WTD as an excuse not to pay drivers and I’m surprised anyone was daft enough to sign that contract.
delboytwo:
i had an interview last week for multi drop driver and the employer asked me am i fully aware of the RTD as some of the drivers with us now are missing there 6 hour rule brake and getting us in trouble (what he meant by that who knows)
Probably that when they had the tacho records analysed it was being flagged as infringements, which is a long way from getting into trouble for it and again doesn’t alter the situation regarding penalties.