Manual Entries For Debriefs Etc

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
81

stevieboy308:

robroy:
Stevieboy. Of course I agree with hours restrictions, why tf wouldn’t I? If it was a free for all you would have some of the present idiots doin 20+ hour days.
What I don’t agree with is this zero tolerance policy, either perceived or true, that has some drivers [zb] ing themselves if they happen to inadvertantly go over their driving time for all of 2 minutes :unamused:

But there’s isn’t a zero tolerance policy, some people say you’re going to get fined for going 2 mins over, then other people believe them, [zb] themselves over it and warn others about this zero tolerance policy. They even tell you they’ll generally give 15 grace, unless it is regularly made use of! They tell you if you get stuck in traffic etc, do a printout and you’ll be ok.

If you agree there needs to be rules and regs, then without any enforcement it’s pointless. I’m not saying everything is perfect, where would you draw the line?

You appear to be leading up to some point by attempting to catch me out in some way.
I know in real terms it isn’t actually a zero tolerance situation, read my post it says ‘perceived or true’
As for where to draw the line, I’m maybe the wrong pereon to answer, but what I would like to see is a bit more old style discretion, the world aint gonna end for some minor tacho infringement, so just hold back on the life or death scenario…again perceived or real.

82

For me, the problem isn’t the tacho rules themselves so much, but the hangers on in the industry who plague us all. In this case it would be the office wallahs in many transport offices, mainly the larger firms who harass and terrify drivers with threats of the sack or disciplinary action if they don’t do a manual entry for 2 minutes for the time it takes to walk from the truck to the office to throw the keys in the box or where ever they go. Drivers hours “enforcement” and analysis is an industry in and of itself and thats the problem. Its in the best interests of that industry and individuals employed in that field to find fault where ever they can to demonstrate their requirement in the first place. Its a bit like a modern day witch hunt, wherein the inquisitors can only continue to exist if they can be seen to actually seek out witches.

In a few years time from now Brussels will think up of some even more stringent legislation, hammering down on drivers to an even greater degree and when that does come in, people on here will then be saying “If they didn’t do it, we’d all be running bent and taking the pish” etc, yet at this moment in time that’s not the case, we all think we’re safe and legal doing it as we are now, just as we were all fine before the DCPC and the WTD. The only thing that’s altered is the bureaucratic work load that’s piled on top of the job and is additional to our work load, not instead of.

83

robroy:

Conor:
We’re told we have to show all the time we’re claiming pay for on our digicards. Like Kevin says its 20 seconds at the start of the following day. If you really are locking your truck up, jumping straight in your car and going home then carry on. If you’re like me though where you lock the truck up, jump into the car, go back to the transport office, hand the keys in, hand in paperwork, all of which can take 10 minutes or so when its busy then you should be recording it as other work.

What you say is more than likely correct , but wtf has this job come to when you just about have to account for every [zb] second :unamused: .You sound like you are quoting the 20second thing with a straight face.
All this type of ■■■■■■■■ is simply just paying lip service and showing total subservience, to the pedantic and downright ridiculous, over regulation set out by the faceless powers that be.
Will the world really end if you do not record handing your keys in ffs, and what if you drop them en route to the office, bend over split your kecks, go back in your cab and look for a safety pin, do you make a manual entry, or write on the back of a printout? :unamused:
I bet if you asked one of these dicks (that devised all this crap) that question, the irony would be lost on them, they would think you were being serious, with their heads firmly stuck up their own arses.

Also wtf is ‘Debriefing’ :open_mouth: :unamused: I thought it was what WW2 bomber crews had to do at the end of a mission, not drivers after delivering a load of bog rolls to Tescos.
Do you ALL really take this type of bull [zb] seriously or what? :open_mouth: I mean, is it ONLY me.

+1 [emoji108][emoji23]

84

robroy:

stevieboy308:

robroy:
Stevieboy. Of course I agree with hours restrictions, why tf wouldn’t I? If it was a free for all you would have some of the present idiots doin 20+ hour days.
What I don’t agree with is this zero tolerance policy, either perceived or true, that has some drivers [zb] ing themselves if they happen to inadvertantly go over their driving time for all of 2 minutes :unamused:

But there’s isn’t a zero tolerance policy, some people say you’re going to get fined for going 2 mins over, then other people believe them, [zb] themselves over it and warn others about this zero tolerance policy. They even tell you they’ll generally give 15 grace, unless it is regularly made use of! They tell you if you get stuck in traffic etc, do a printout and you’ll be ok.

If you agree there needs to be rules and regs, then without any enforcement it’s pointless. I’m not saying everything is perfect, where would you draw the line?

You appear to be leading up to some point by attempting to catch me out in some way.
I know in real terms it isn’t actually a zero tolerance situation, read my post it says ‘perceived or true’
As for where to draw the line, I’m maybe the wrong pereon to answer, but what I would like to see is a bit more old style discretion, the world aint gonna end for some minor tacho infringement, so just hold back on the life or death scenario…again perceived or real.

i’m not leading you anywhere that isn’t obvious! do you think there needs to be regs? - yes, then wouldn’t you agree without enforcement there’s pretty much no point in having any regs? do i take it you disagree with the leeway they give? either way it’s a cop out to slag it off but not say where you’d draw the line

i read the perceived or true bit, it’s perceived because people like you saying it is!! even when some of them will know it’s not

the trouble with discretion, 2 men get stopped for the same thing by 2 different vosa men, one gets let off, the other gets a fine. they get talking a week later, well this isn’t fair, this isn’t right, one rule for one yada yada yada, everyone should get the same treatment. so they write out a graduated penalty book, listing loads of offenses and the punishment dependent on the severity, they even include how they’ll basically let you off with 15 minutes and a 1t or 5% on weight, they make it freely available so you can decide if the risk reward ratio stacks up for you! and what do people throw at them, well there should be discretion, they can’t win!

85

robinhood_1984:
For me, the problem isn’t the tacho rules themselves so much, but the hangers on in the industry who plague us all. In this case it would be the office wallahs in many transport offices, mainly the larger firms who harass and terrify drivers with threats of the sack or disciplinary action if they don’t do a manual entry for 2 minutes for the time it takes to walk from the truck to the office to throw the keys in the box or where ever they go. Drivers hours “enforcement” and analysis is an industry in and of itself and thats the problem. Its in the best interests of that industry and individuals employed in that field to find fault where ever they can to demonstrate their requirement in the first place. Its a bit like a modern day witch hunt, wherein the inquisitors can only continue to exist if they can be seen to actually seek out witches.

In a few years time from now Brussels will think up of some even more stringent legislation, hammering down on drivers to an even greater degree and when that does come in, people on here will then be saying “If they didn’t do it, we’d all be running bent and taking the pish” etc, yet at this moment in time that’s not the case, we all think we’re safe and legal doing it as we are now, just as we were all fine before the DCPC and the WTD. The only thing that’s altered is the bureaucratic work load that’s piled on top of the job and is additional to our work load, not instead of.

so do you actually know of any firms who threaten the sack for for not doing the 2 min manual entry? and even if you do, do you honestly believe it’s a widespread issue?

firms have to do analysis, isn’t the point of that to identify when drivers get something wrong and repeatedly makes the same mistakes. - dave, do you know you’re not allowed to split your 45 into 3x15’s any more. dave’s not going to get one of these massive fines his mate rob’s been warning him about :laughing: :laughing:
i don’t believe any analysts firm is going to lose business by correctly, constantly returning, no infringements found.

i grew up sitting on an adults knee in the car, my kids go in car seats. things change, i’m not always saying for the better! if and when the rules change, learn them, usually the people who will have the problem are the ones who don’t give a ■■■■ to learn them, or know them but don’t give a ■■■■ about them. average joe in the middle who’ll have a few ■■■■ ups, a few pushing your luck moments, but has got their head round the key points on what they want from you, will rarely have much of an issue, i’m sure i’ll come across naive, but honestly, how many average joes do you know who’ve been busted?

86

I’m no longer in the UK Steve so outside of this forum I cannot comment on how things are on the ground. My concerns and comments are in response to posts and comments on this forum and that’s about it.
You read the same forum as me, you see the same comments about the same things, the same people worried about whats going to happen to them, the same complaints about drivers facing this, that or the other for not doing this or that and to me they’re always very minor things that would never even have come up at firms I’ve worked for in the UK till 2009 and a bit in 2012 on brief return home. I have absolutely no idea how widespread these sort of hideously regimental companies are that we see mention of on here, but they don’t really seem to be that uncommon.

Perhaps you could tell me what your firm expects in regards paperwork and general bureaucracy compared with the easier days of lets say 10 or so years ago when we ran to tacho rules but the WTD, manual entries etc were unheard of, and others can do the same with their own experiences.

87

robinhood_1984:
Perhaps you could tell me what your firm expects in regards paperwork and general bureaucracy compared with the easier days of lets say 10 or so years ago when we ran to tacho rules but the WTD, manual entries etc were unheard of, and others can do the same with their own experiences.

About 10 years or so ago my old man was a serving MINISTRY/VOSA officer on the Tacho side and yes manual entries were expected and enforcement took place for substantial entries not being made (not minutes - but maybe 30+ minutes) - it was just less common because back then they had to take the driver to court which meant loads of paperwork and hassle, so they made sure it was worth it and would be a succesfull prosecution. I know he wasn’t much fussed if it was in error, or just time the driver sat about, but if he had evidence the driver was actively working or purposely making false records … the gloves were off.

My old man always showed discretion and went after the operator where it was suggested it was standard practice/encouraged within a company - but would prosecute the driver where the wrong attitude was presented. I know he would rather educate a driver than penalise him.

I have met a good few drivers on DCPC courses who have been dealt with by my Dad in the past and all seemed to have respect for him because of how they were dealt with.

Now DVSA have the Graduated Fixed Penalty and its just far too easy to penalise a driver and the operator almost gets away with it (fixed penalties affect OCRS scores). DVSA seem more interested in issuing fines than educating drivers and have become quite ■■■■ about minutes here and there. I think this is because they themselves would be disciplined if they showed discretion.

A decent operator expects the driver to do as he asks/instructs and that should be as the rules/regulations demand. Failure to do that is actually a criminal offence on the Operators behalf. If a driver doesn’t comply with the rules, whether we agree with them or not, it does threaten the Operators licence - therefore his livelihood and anyone else he employs.

I have seen companies picked apart by VOSA/DVSA where some drivers weren’t bothered and didn’t strictly comply with the rules. The operator gets taken to a PI and ultimately loses his O licence or has it curtailed etc and then the lads who were trying end up jobless as well.

I think I get what some posts are saying. They don’t agree with it all and do enough to keep on the right side of trouble, but make sure people know they aren’t happy. Comply but in their own way … bend over when nobody’s looking :wink:

88

stevieboy308:
the trouble with discretion, 2 men get stopped for the same thing by 2 different vosa men, one gets let off, the other gets a fine. they get talking a week later, well this isn’t fair, this isn’t right, one rule for one yada yada yada, everyone should get the same treatment. so they write out a graduated penalty book, listing loads of offenses and the punishment dependent on the severity, they even include how they’ll basically let you off with 15 minutes and a 1t or 5% on weight, they make it freely available so you can decide if the risk reward ratio stacks up for you! and what do people throw at them, well there should be discretion, they can’t win!

Well said Stevieboy. Excellent post and couldn’t agree more.

89

robroy:
Stevieboy. Of course I agree with hours restrictions, why tf wouldn’t I? If it was a free for all you would have some of the present idiots doin 20+ hour days.
What I don’t agree with is this zero tolerance policy, either perceived or true, that has some drivers [zb] ing themselves if they happen to inadvertantly go over their driving time for all of 2 minutes :unamused:

In my last permanent company some of the drivers were legally doing 20+ hour days. The vehicles were involved with drainage, sewage and highway maintenance and so were totally tacho exempt, with no records kept apart from timesheets for payment. Quite a few other exempted exclusions work very long hours too, particularly where vehicles are designated as ‘plant’.

I was advised on a dcpc module to keep a small diary of the days I work to comply with ‘regulations’. Obviously if one of those days is non driving work (for another company), it doesn’t get recorded anywhere as WTD seems to exist just to reduce people’s wages. Drivers hours have regulated drivers ok for years, so no real need for the WTD to confuse the issue further, which is the only purpose I can see the whole manual entry thing being needed for. Being agency I don’t clock in our out with clients, or have written timesheets for them to sign, as all done online. Most places I don’t even download my card as many offices are usually all closed up when I get back later. Am hoping the vehicle unit stores that for them, or they’ll have blanks in their records?

90

LIBERTY_GUY:
In my last permanent company some of the drivers were legally doing 20+ hour days. The vehicles were involved with drainage, sewage and highway maintenance and so were totally tacho exempt, with no records kept apart from timesheets for payment. Quite a few other exempted exclusions work very long hours too, particularly where vehicles are designated as ‘plant’.

I was advised on a dcpc module to keep a small diary of the days I work to comply with ‘regulations’. Obviously if one of those days is non driving work (for another company), it doesn’t get recorded anywhere as WTD seems to exist just to reduce people’s wages. Drivers hours have regulated drivers ok for years, so no real need for the WTD to confuse the issue further, which is the only purpose I can see the whole manual entry thing being needed for. Being agency I don’t clock in our out with clients, or have written timesheets for them to sign, as all done online. Most places I don’t even download my card as many offices are usually all closed up when I get back later. Am hoping the vehicle unit stores that for them, or they’ll have blanks in their records?

Mmmmmm. If those vehicles were over 3.5t then log books should have been used to record domestic hours, and although domestic rules don’t exactly tell us we have to have rest periods, they do say that rest should be sufficient to prevent harm to themselves or others. When hours are long things can go wrong and accidents happen - when they do that means rest wasn’t sufficient and the operators could be up for prosecution.

The advice given on your DCPC course appears very wrong. Records must be kept of any other work including for non driving jobs carried out on any day before driving if you drive in scope of EU Rules within a week. The WTD is there to protect drivers when drivers hours don’t … example - I drive 4h 29m meaning I am not required nor entitled to any breaks. In theory the boss could now have me work a further 10h 31m and take a reduced daily rest having had no breaks all day. The WTD prevents this and ensures I get breaks from work.

However - this manual entry debate is regarding EU Drivers Hours Rules and not WTD

91

robinhood_1984:
I’m no longer in the UK Steve so outside of this forum I cannot comment on how things are on the ground. My concerns and comments are in response to posts and comments on this forum and that’s about it.
You read the same forum as me, you see the same comments about the same things, the same people worried about whats going to happen to them, the same complaints about drivers facing this, that or the other for not doing this or that and to me they’re always very minor things that would never even have come up at firms I’ve worked for in the UK till 2009 and a bit in 2012 on brief return home. I have absolutely no idea how widespread these sort of hideously regimental companies are that we see mention of on here, but they don’t really seem to be that uncommon.

Perhaps you could tell me what your firm expects in regards paperwork and general bureaucracy compared with the easier days of lets say 10 or so years ago when we ran to tacho rules but the WTD, manual entries etc were unheard of, and others can do the same with their own experiences.

now i’m not on here as much as i used to be, so maybe i’ve missed stuff? i can only recall seeing one post that someone said they do a manual entry for a few minutes to cover walking back to the office and i don’t remember that being company policy, just him doing off his own back, but i could be wrong.

see, not being funny, but how that came across to me, is you’re making out it’s a policy in a significant enough amount of larger firms, but, by the sounds of it haven’t got an example! maybe it has been mentioned on here enough, but like i said, i haven’t seen it. these are the sort of rumors that go round in circles, reassuring you it’s true next time you hear it! picking up some people that don’t question stuff as it goes.

i only work on an own account job with 2 trucks, whilst the majority of my work is driving trucks, i do plenty of other stuff. all that’s is asked is i run legal, fill in the daily defect book and even when i can drive without my card in, put in. that’s it really, plus clocking in and out. i do manual entries off my own back.

if i’m honest this is the 1st time i wouldn’t get the sinking feeling if got pulled in! not that i was ever a chancer, but i wasn’t squeaky clean either. the rigid is new, the artic trailer is new, the unit is tidy, i go nowhere near to any driving or hours limits, since they changed the speed limit i’ve slowed down and do it! i’m not in a rush. filling in the blanks, it just seems daft not to when everything else is right and confident i’d get a clean bill of health if pulled in. before this i didn’t drive a truck for 4 years, maybe my attitude has changed? i just don’t see the point in risking a fine when it can be so easily avoided. i’m far more clued up than i was when i started in 2000, mainly due to this site.

92

shep532:
Mmmmmm. If those vehicles were over 3.5t then log books should have been used to record domestic hours, and although domestic rules don’t exactly tell us we have to have rest periods, they do say that rest should be sufficient to prevent harm to themselves or others. When hours are long things can go wrong and accidents happen - when they do that means rest wasn’t sufficient and the operators could be up for prosecution.

The advice given on your DCPC course appears very wrong. Records must be kept of any other work including for non driving jobs carried out on any day before driving if you drive in scope of EU Rules within a week. The WTD is there to protect drivers when drivers hours don’t … example - I drive 4h 29m meaning I am not required nor entitled to any breaks. In theory the boss could now have me work a further 10h 31m and take a reduced daily rest having had no breaks all day. The WTD prevents this and ensures I get breaks from work.

However - this manual entry debate is regarding EU Drivers Hours Rules and not WTD

Now this is the thing, I relate this to regular paper tacho charts… I have never written ANYTHING on these charts other than for the required fields on the front inner circle. No employer has ever stated anything else was missing from these charts and when stopped at roadside checks nobody has ever made any mention about there needing to be additional information on there. Manual entries have only even come into my ‘radar’ recently because I sometimes use digi tachos now (never been shown how to use one properly) and it asks if I want to make a manual entry after I have inserted the card. I always put no.

93

shep532:

LIBERTY_GUY:
In my last permanent company some of the drivers were legally doing 20+ hour days. The vehicles were involved with drainage, sewage and highway maintenance and so were totally tacho exempt, with no records kept apart from timesheets for payment. Quite a few other exempted exclusions work very long hours too, particularly where vehicles are designated as ‘plant’.

I was advised on a dcpc module to keep a small diary of the days I work to comply with ‘regulations’. Obviously if one of those days is non driving work (for another company), it doesn’t get recorded anywhere as WTD seems to exist just to reduce people’s wages. Drivers hours have regulated drivers ok for years, so no real need for the WTD to confuse the issue further, which is the only purpose I can see the whole manual entry thing being needed for. Being agency I don’t clock in our out with clients, or have written timesheets for them to sign, as all done online. Most places I don’t even download my card as many offices are usually all closed up when I get back later. Am hoping the vehicle unit stores that for them, or they’ll have blanks in their records?

Mmmmmm. If those vehicles were over 3.5t then log books should have been used to record domestic hours, and although domestic rules don’t exactly tell us we have to have rest periods, they do say that rest should be sufficient to prevent harm to themselves or others. When hours are long things can go wrong and accidents happen - when they do that means rest wasn’t sufficient and the operators could be up for prosecution.

The advice given on your DCPC course appears very wrong. Records must be kept of any other work including for non driving jobs carried out on any day before driving if you drive in scope of EU Rules within a week. The WTD is there to protect drivers when drivers hours don’t … example - I drive 4h 29m meaning I am not required nor entitled to any breaks. In theory the boss could now have me work a further 10h 31m and take a reduced daily rest having had no breaks all day. The WTD prevents this and ensures I get breaks from work.

However - this manual entry debate is regarding EU Drivers Hours Rules and not WTD

if you don’t drive over 4 hours in a day and stay within 50km of the operating centre, then no records are required. :wink:

94

LIBERTY_GUY:
Now this is the thing, I relate this to regular paper tacho charts… I have never written ANYTHING on these charts other than for the required fields on the front inner circle. No employer has ever stated anything else was missing from these charts and when stopped at roadside checks nobody has ever made any mention about there needing to be additional information on there. Manual entries have only even come into my ‘radar’ recently because I sometimes use digi tachos now (never been shown how to use one properly) and it asks if I want to make a manual entry after I have inserted the card. I always put no.

I suppose the point is why would anyone question it at the road side? They wouldn’t. You present a record and they accept it for what it is - true. But of course something may not stack up and this makes them query it - or maybe on a tacho inspection at company premises things don’t appear to be all OK and it is clear time worked away from the vehicle hasn’t been entered.

With an analogue tacho in the UK any gaps in data are ‘considered’ to be rest. If they weren’t rest then you would obviously have made a record.

It is the same for digital. The issue now is that the newer digital tacho doesn’t particularly like gaps because of the way it works so we tend to now have to enter our rest periods to let the little computer know what we mean so it can work things out properly.

For example on a version 2 Siemens, if you choose NO for manual entry it fails to ask you to enter your start country - which is an offence. of course you could enter it manually after you have inserted your card but it is easier to choose YES to manual input.

95

stevieboy308:
if you don’t drive over 4 hours in a day and stay within 50km of the operating centre, then no records are required. :wink:

Now you are confusing me! If you are referring to domestic rules I disagree. If you drive less than 4 hours you are expempt the daily duty limit and if you also stay within 50km of base expempt record keeping - that does not exempt you from having adequate rest (particularly under health & safety regulations). if anyone was to ask what length of rest is ‘adequate’ - a quick look at EU Regs would be a good guide :wink:

But of course we are both being somewhat pedantic and know how things work out there in the ‘real world’ of getting the job done safely and going home to see the money hit the bank account on pay day. Legal, illegal, your definition or mine or anyone elses. Just as long as it is safe :smiley:

96

Where my world gets confusing is I can work at three different clients in a week. Mixture of analogue and digi tachos. From my understanding, the analogue tacho ‘fills in the missing blanks’ where one has been used between last use of the digi tacho, which has usually been for another company and that prior data is seldom downloaded from my card. I can have up to three other companies data still on my card that gets downloaded onto someone else’s system for vehicles they don’t actually have… :blush: :blush: I said my world gets confusing and I purposefully decline doing manual entries to prevent even further confusion. :exclamation:

97

Why would making manual entries cause confusion? The idea is to enter work activity onto your card which would otherwise have gone unrecorded. If it’s already on a paper chart (or a Domestic Rules logbook) then it shouldn’t be recorded by manual entry. If not already recorded on a chart/logbook/digicard then a manual digicard entry is the sensible way to do it.

98

stevieboy308:
i’m not leading you anywhere that isn’t obvious! do you think there needs to be regs? - yes, then wouldn’t you agree without enforcement there’s pretty much no point in having any regs? do i take it you disagree with the leeway they give? either way it’s a cop out to slag it off but not say where you’d draw the line

i read the perceived or true bit, it’s perceived because people like you saying it is!! even when some of them will know it’s not

the trouble with discretion, 2 men get stopped for the same thing by 2 different vosa men, one gets let off, the other gets a fine. they get talking a week later, well this isn’t fair, this isn’t right, one rule for one yada yada yada, everyone should get the same treatment. so they write out a graduated penalty book, listing loads of offenses and the punishment dependent on the severity, they even include how they’ll basically let you off with 15 minutes and a 1t or 5% on weight, they make it freely available so you can decide if the risk reward ratio stacks up for you! and what do people throw at them, well there should be discretion, they can’t win!

People like me’ saying it’s (zero tolerance) perceived by others, or people like me with the said perception which?

It’s proven that some perceive it by the way they get so stressed out over trivial infringements, read some past posts on here.
You can’t surely put me in that category, it,s only a couple of days ago that you accused me of appearing to not give a ■■■■…you can’t have it both ways.
If you’re happy with the present system of things in terms of hours rules and all the details rules regs dos and do nots, (maybe complicated for a reason if there are any conspiracy theorists on) well fair enough, I would prefer an old style more simplified version of it all. I ain’t going to start devising a hypothetical set of rules and regs as an alternative to what we have now either, mainly because I can’t be arsed and am not interested enough to do so, if you think that,s a cop out well thats up to you.

If you want an example of how it baffles guys on different levels, read the last few posts and as I said at the start, , if you want examples of how other guys worry about trivial infringements ( yeh maybe within the leeway parameters you mention) go through the entire forum where you will find numerous examples.
In both cases a good argument for simplifying the present system, and maybe then there would be no need for my call for discretion, as everybody would be up to press, and less stressed out by no longer worrying that they may have made a balls up and PERCEIVE that the wrath of hell was about to come down on them.

99

Must be time to go back to two logbooks. :wink:

100

Roymondo:
Why would making manual entries cause confusion? The idea is to enter work activity onto your card which would otherwise have gone unrecorded. If it’s already on a paper chart (or a Domestic Rules logbook) then it shouldn’t be recorded by manual entry. If not already recorded on a chart/logbook/digicard then a manual digicard entry is the sensible way to do it.

Do bear in mind digi tachos are a new thing for some of us. :wink: Like tens of thousands of other drivers I have never been given any training on their use and when you see dozens of threads asking simple things about how they should be used, it becomes obvious there is a lot of confusion out there. Same as when I did my dcpc course (at my own expense) last year, room full of drivers had vastly conflicting ideas on virtually every legal topic you could think of. I did look at a couple of YouTube videos on making manual entries, but they didn’t seem to bear any resemblance to the digi tachos I used (same make), so just click no now, so I don’t screw it up. :cry: