shep532:
Manual entries are for those periods of time worth recording. We know the Enforcement Sanctions policy gives us 15 minutes ‘grace’ before any form of action is considered so in my opinion 3 or 4 minutes collecting your keys … forget it. 10 minutes filling in a drivers health declaration, arguing with the planner and sorting your paperwork - that should be accounted for.
I guess it all depends of what your definition of ‘work’ is. I don’t class picking up keys, paperwork and walking to your truck as ‘work’, as my day doesn’t start till I put the card in the tacho slot. Likewise at the end of the day, I hand all the paperwork in, put my own gear back in the car before I take the tacho card out. Just drop the keys in then. That is exactly what I would explain to DVSA if they ask.
We have to account for all our time now as well manual entries for the start and end of the shift. I can understand it in places where you are waiting around for ages for units or takes 20mins to get the card out, wander to some office wait to get debriefed.
Ive timed it at my work, from getting out the car been in the truck within 2mins, literally park a bawhair away from the unit, and pick up keys from portacabin. So crazy someday s been a bit sharpish getting to work and find myself in the truck at its 1min past the time i start work and i find myself checking the unit out then putting the card in just to do a manual entry same at end of shift, sitting waiting so i can add some time on to the end of the shift the next day.
shep532:
I don’t think most comments on this thread are talking about a few minutes or seconds here or there (you can’t input seconds anyway!). I know there is a thread mentions 20 seconds and someone took it to mean accounting for 20 seconds when they actually meant it only takes 20 seconds to enter a period of activity.
Yes the Germans, French etc do use various modes the same as we should. But consider that most of them don’t unload/load so their periods of work would be quite scarce and also short and of all the ones I have met they consider if they aren’t moving, they aren’t loading/unloading then they are on break - and I’d agree with that.
Okay so not seconds, but even to prat about to show a few minutes seems a bit ■■■■ to me, especially when its taken so seriously to the extent that drivers face disciplinary action and the sack. That sort of bureaucratic control over a person is not on in my opinion, but then, that’s why I’m not in the UK any more despite quite liking the job itself but not the overwhelming amount of regulation and bureaucracy to do what is otherwise a very simple and straight forward job.
As for the Germans, they do just as much unloading as I did, given that they have Euroliners that need opening, 30-60 wood of alloy boards that need removing from the side, loads need strapping/unstrapping, roofs need sliding forwards etc etc etc, all done on rest mode in their cases (and yes, I did the same). That sort of thing would land you in front of the firing squad for many UK firms. You say they use their modes, perhaps they now do, but the ones I met up until 2009 certainly did not, at a time when the vast majority of UK drivers were well in to such things.
shep532:
I don’t think most comments on this thread are talking about a few minutes or seconds here or there (you can’t input seconds anyway!). I know there is a thread mentions 20 seconds and someone took it to mean accounting for 20 seconds when they actually meant it only takes 20 seconds to enter a period of activity.
Yes the Germans, French etc do use various modes the same as we should. But consider that most of them don’t unload/load so their periods of work would be quite scarce and also short and of all the ones I have met they consider if they aren’t moving, they aren’t loading/unloading then they are on break - and I’d agree with that.
Okay so not seconds, but even to prat about to show a few minutes seems a bit ■■■■ to me, especially when its taken so seriously to the extent that drivers face disciplinary action and the sack. That sort of bureaucratic control over a person is not on in my opinion, but then, that’s why I’m not in the UK any more despite quite liking the job itself but not the overwhelming amount of regulation and bureaucracy to do what is otherwise a very simple and straight forward job.
.
RH mate, don’t waste your time, it’s like ■■■■■■■ against the wind, drivers are already (true to form) conforming to all this crap, not only that …but DEFENDING it ffs!!
The fact that they are drawn in to using all these management bull crap terminology/ buzz words like ‘debriefs’ indicate that the ‘Resistance ship’ has already sailed.
Old style drivers like you and myself are not taken in by all this sht, but just endure it, put up with it and see it for what it really is…total ■■■■■■■■.
At least you are miles away from it, where as I have to face it day to day.
btw. I’ve never made a ‘Manual entry’ in my life and maybe never will.
(Apart that is from the type peterm refers to on page 1 of the thread )
So at what point do you decide that you are going to have to have a night out because there simply isn’t enough time left out of a 13 or 15 to get back to the yard, drop the trailer, refuel, park up and queue to download the card and be debriefed? or perhaps more importantly GET PAID for all of this rather than pulling the card and losing the time… in both senses of the word.
The above posts by robroy and robinhood are bull[zb] complete and utter bull[zb], it’s all very well jumping on threads ■■■■■■■■ about UK drivers but the reality is that if your jobs depended on doing a manual entry that took a minute you’d tow the line like everyone else.
Of course this industry is over regulated we all know that and I imagine most of us don’t like it, and of course debriefs are a nonsense, in fact I’d say for the most part they’re introduced for no other purpose than to massage a compliance managers ego, the difference is that most people accept there’s nothing they can do about it and get on with their lives as best they can, constantly ■■■■■■■■ about other drivers who are just doing their jobs isn’t going to make the slightest difference.
You two can continue to try to big yourselves up by slagging off other drivers all the time, and that’s really all you’re trying to do, but when push comes to shove you’d tow the line if you had to, robroy I seem to remember that like many of us you didn’t like the DCPC but did you do it, of course you did, you towed the line like everyone else, and if you worked for a company that told you to do manual entries you’d tow the line on that to, and if you worked for a company that did debriefs you’d tow the line on that.
cav551:
So at what point do you decide that you are going to have to have a night out because there simply isn’t enough time left out of a 13 or 15 to get back to the yard, drop the trailer, refuel, park up and queue to download the card and be debriefed? or perhaps more importantly GET PAID for all of this rather than pulling the card and losing the time… in both senses of the word.
When there is’nt enough time to drop the trailer,refuel,download card and debrief.
This is a question rather than a critique, but I always thought the point of tachographs (and log books before that) was to ensure you didn’t exceed your DRIVING hours, took your proper breaks throughout your driving period and have your daily rest between DRIVING shifts. Someone please feel free to enlighten me what this manual entry crud is all about and please don’t say WTD, as I’ve yet to read of people actually getting busted for WTD stuff. Your tacho was always there to record time IN the vehicle surely?
LIBERTY_GUY:
This is a question rather than a critique, but I always thought the point of tachographs (and log books before that) was to ensure you didn’t exceed your DRIVING hours, took your proper breaks throughout your driving period and have your daily rest between DRIVING shifts. Someone please feel free to enlighten me what this manual entry crud is all about and please don’t say WTD, as I’ve yet to read of people actually getting busted for WTD stuff. Your tacho was always there to record time IN the vehicle surely?
The tachograph like log sheets before them is to record a drivers activities throughout the day, that’s all work related activities not just activities in the vehicle, in that respect nothing has changed.
Even with log books we were expected to record work done away from the vehicle, the only real difference is that with log sheets you could pretty much make up your own story
edit: Without wishing to get too pedantic about this and purely to confirm what I’m saying about the records not being just for work done in the vehicle, there is actually a penalty in the sanctions book for not doing manual entries to cover work done that’s not automatically recorded on the tachograph.
tachograph:
The above posts by robroy and robinhood are bull[zb] complete and utter bull[zb], it’s all very well jumping on threads ■■■■■■■■ about UK drivers but the reality is that if your jobs depended on doing a manual entry that took a minute you’d tow the line like everyone else.
Of course this industry is over regulated we all know that and I imagine most of us don’t like it, and of course debriefs are a nonsense, in fact I’d say for the most part they’re introduced for no other purpose than to massage a compliance managers ego, the difference is that most people accept there’s nothing they can do about it and get on with their lives as best they can, constantly ■■■■■■■■ about other drivers who are just doing their jobs isn’t going to make the slightest difference.
You two can continue to try to big yourselves up by slagging off other drivers all the time, and that’s really all you’re trying to do, but when push comes to shove you’d tow the line if you had to, robroy I seem to remember that like many of us you didn’t like the DCPC but did you do it, of course you did, you towed the line like everyone else, and if you worked for a company that told you to do manual entries you’d tow the line on that to, and if you worked for a company that did debriefs you’d tow the line on that.
x 10
How can I argue about legislation, drivers hours pedantry, and ridiculous over regulation with a guy that calls himself ‘tachograph’ {and presumably a dcpc instructor??}
That kind of sums up, and over rules any reply to you that I can think of mate.
If you want to interprete a realistic view of things as ■■■■■■■■ well crack on.
As for ‘towing the line’ how and when I got my CPC is none of your business.
Some might say there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I’ve never been and never will be one to bend over with a welcome sign tattooed above my arse hole, so how dare you make unsubstantiated judgments or opinions about me, you don’t even know me ffs.
Furthermore don’t judge other peoples attitudes towards subservancy and conforming by your own.
Thanks ‘Tachograph’. I’ve never actually done work outside of the vehicle as in being a driver warehouseman or whatever. Never ever wrote anything extra on analogue charts or indeed log books years ago as a result of doing this. Thought this manual entry thing was just a quirk of the digital tachograph. Will continue to put no when asked though…
robroy:
How can I argue about legislation, drivers hours pedantry, and ridiculous over regulation with a guy that calls himself ‘tachograph’ {and presumably a dcpc instructor??}
That kind of sums up, and over rules any reply to you that I can think of mate.
If you want to interprete a realistic view of things as ■■■■■■■■ well crack on.
As for ‘towing the line’ how and when I got my CPC is none of your business.
Some might say there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I’ve never been and never will be one to bend over with a welcome sign tattooed above my arse hole, so how dare you make unsubstantiated judgments or opinions about me, you don’t even know me ffs.
Furthermore don’t judge other peoples attitudes towards subservancy and conforming by your own.
I’ve no idea what anyone’s user name has got to do with anything, but as it’s been brought up I’ll tell you how that came about, when I registered here I was trying to think of a user-name, I just happened to be sorting out some tachograph charts at the time and having little imagination tachograph became my user name, simple as that.
I am not and never have been a DCPC instructor, I’ve no idea where that idea came from
I’m not making unsubstantiated judgement about anyone, you claim not to tow the line and criticise and take the ■■■■ out of people who do, regardless of how you got a DQC you got one and that’s towing the line.
I don’t blame anyone for towing the line as long as it doesn’t mean demeaning themselves, I’m just pointing out that for all your criticism of other drivers you’re no different, at the end of the day people will do what they need to do (within reason) to safeguard their livelihood and where necessary provide for their families and future.
Be honest, do you really think it’s fair or appropriate to constantly slag people off for just trying to earn a living, drivers these days have enough bull[zb] to put up with without other drivers adding to it
tachograph:
I don’t blame anyone for towing the line as long as it doesn’t mean demeaning themselves, I’m just pointing out that for all your criticism of other drivers you’re no different, at the end of the day people will do what they need to do (within reason) to safeguard their livelihood and where necessary provide for their families and future.
Be honest, do you really think it’s fair or appropriate to constantly slag people off for just trying to earn a living, drivers these days have enough bull[zb] to put up with without other drivers adding to it
Quite the contrary. Rob and myself are criticising the very pedantic nature of the current bureaucracy that puts worry and anguish in to these drivers trying to earn a living. That’s our whole point, we’re doing what should be a simple job and its not so because of all this crap that’s totally irrelevant to the movement of freight.
Worrying about being sacked and losing your livelihood because you haven’t done a manual entry or you’ve shown 8 minutes for a walk around check contrary to company procedure of 10 or 15 is a joke. Rob himself is the one who’s just trying to earn a living without having others force more crap on to him in the guise of EU bureaucracy, not the other way round.
When you describe drivers who just want to get on with the job, earn a living and having enough BS to deal with, you’re describing us. Its exactly those things that we’re against.
As for those who swallow all of this regulatory nonsense and then come on here and tells us that we’ve got to do it, or else, wagging their little patronising fingers and predicting prosecution and the like in our futures if we don’t tow the line with every little bureaucratic dictat, yes they are pricks and they’re part of the problem as I personally see it, they’re very far removed from ordinary men trying to get by. They’re the truck driving equivalent of a zealous Health and Safety ■■■■ found in other occupations.
tachograph:
I don’t blame anyone for towing the line as long as it doesn’t mean demeaning themselves, I’m just pointing out that for all your criticism of other drivers you’re no different, at the end of the day people will do what they need to do (within reason) to safeguard their livelihood and where necessary provide for their families and future.
Be honest, do you really think it’s fair or appropriate to constantly slag people off for just trying to earn a living, drivers these days have enough bull[zb] to put up with without other drivers adding to it
Quite the contrary. Rob and myself are criticising the very pedantic nature of the current bureaucracy that puts worry and anguish in to these drivers trying to earn a living. That’s our whole point, we’re doing what should be a simple job and its not so because of all this crap that’s totally irrelevant to the movement of freight.
Worrying about being sacked and losing your livelihood because you haven’t done a manual entry or you’ve shown 8 minutes for a walk around check contrary to company procedure of 10 or 15 is a joke. Rob himself is the one who’s just trying to earn a living without having others force more crap on to him in the guise of EU bureaucracy, not the other way round.
When you describe drivers who just want to get on with the job, earn a living and having enough BS to deal with, you’re describing us. Its exactly those things that we’re against.
As for those who swallow all of this regulatory nonsense and then come on here and tells us that we’ve got to do it, or else, wagging their little patronising fingers and predicting prosecution and the like in our futures if we don’t tow the line with every little bureaucratic dictat, yes they are pricks and they’re part of the problem as I personally see it, they’re very far removed from ordinary men trying to get by. They’re the truck driving equivalent of a zealous Health and Safety ■■■■ found in other occupations.
robroy:
RH, …Could not , (so will not attempt to) put it better myself, …well said mate.
I’m currently sat in my truck in Ontario having a 36 hour reset. My engine is running for the AC as its over +30’c. How many on this forum would claim that the act of turning a key to start or turn off the motor constitutes “other work” and should be recorded as such, thus interrupting and voiding my rest period? The world has gone mad and many Britons lead the way in that race.
robroy:
RH, …Could not , (so will not attempt to) put it better myself, …well said mate.
I’m currently sat in my truck in Ontario having a 36 hour reset. My engine is running for the AC as its over +30’c. How many on this forum would claim that the act of turning a key to start or turn off the motor constitutes “other work” and should be recorded as such, thus interrupting and voiding my rest period? The world has gone mad and many Britons lead the way in that race.
You are familiar with the concept of a “straw man” argument…?
Roymondo:
You are familiar with the concept of a “straw man” argument…?
Yes and I’m also familiar with individuals on here claiming that turning the ignition or ejecting the tacho during the rest period constitutes other work and must not be done. I stand by what I’ve said.
Roymondo:
You are familiar with the concept of a “straw man” argument…?
Yes and I’m also familiar with individuals on here claiming that turning the ignition or ejecting the tacho during the rest period constitutes other work and must not be done. I stand by what I’ve said.
While I certainly can’t claim to have followed every single thread on Trucknet, I’ve certainly never seen anyone say that (or anything resembling it). But if they have, fair enough - there’s certainly a whole load of sphericals posted on most subjects.
Roymondo:
While I certainly can’t claim to have followed every single thread on Trucknet, I’ve certainly never seen anyone say that (or anything resembling it). But if they have, fair enough - there’s certainly a whole load of sphericals posted on most subjects.
I couldn’t prove it by finding said posts but there have been several mentions on here about leaving a card in the truck over the weekend and people panicking about it and some saying that they shouldn’t eject it as “vosa would consider it other work” and thus cancel out their daily rest, provided it wasn’t recording on crossed hammers the whole time any way. As for the turning the ignition, believe it or not, it has been claimed on here that its “other work” and shouldn’t be done.
I know its extreme, but that’s my whole point, these things and these points of view do happen and in my mind at least they’re all endemic of the same thing, total bureaucracy and some peoples blind obedience to it.
Some trucks in the UK do for example set the tacho to ‘other work’ if you do turn the ignition on, even if its just to put the window down, turn the radio on, or in fact check your tacho to see how long you’ve been on break for etc. I just happen to think all that kind of thing is ■■■■■■■■ and unnecessarily takes away from the job for no other reason than for the sake of merely doing so. It gives people in compliance roles a reason to exist and draw a wage but thats about it.
indicate that the ‘Resistance ship’ has already sailed.
)
