albion1971:
Fair enough you carry on but 38T takes about the same time to stop no matter which trailer it is on.Yes some loads are affected by braking but in general the average load when secure will react the same.Road surfaces obviously make a big difference to stopping distances.
I just hope you have good judgement…Safe driving.
have you ever had anything to do with adjusting brakes? and how it can affect braking
how about a half full tanker
anything other than straight, would brake as hard with a high center of gravity load as you would with a low center of gravity one?
i hope your formula is right… safe driving
albion1971:
I take it when you were with the driving examiners you had no load on? driving examiners can have absolutely no experience of driving heavy vehicles so maybe they are not the best to judge!
You still drive the same as when you passed your test I take it.
there’s no pleasing some people 
i defo had at least 2 driving assessments by people who had driven with stuff in the back.
no i’m far better now
stevieboy308:
albion1971:
Fair enough you carry on but 38T takes about the same time to stop no matter which trailer it is on.Yes some loads are affected by braking but in general the average load when secure will react the same.Road surfaces obviously make a big difference to stopping distances.
I just hope you have good judgement…Safe driving.
have you ever had anything to do with adjusting brakes? and how it can affect braking
how about a half full tanker
anything other than straight, would brake as hard with a high center of gravity load as you would with a low center of gravity one?
i hope your formula is right… safe driving
albion1971:
I take it when you were with the driving examiners you had no load on? driving examiners can have absolutely no experience of driving heavy vehicles so maybe they are not the best to judge!
You still drive the same as when you passed your test I take it.
there’s no pleasing some people i defo had at least 2 driving assessments by people who had driven with stuff in the back.
no i’m far better now
Driven petrol tankers for 12 years in London (artics) and aircraft refuellers ( A frame drawbar) I could go on but I won’t…good luck.
albion1971:
stevieboy308:
albion1971:
I am not saying I can avoid everything but I drive in a manner that gives me the best chance not to hit something if something out of the ordinary happens.
You say the gap you leave is what looks right? That is just your perception which may or may not be right.Surely a professional driver would know how to judge a safe gap rahter than just go by what he sees or thinks.
All I can say is a lot of experienced drivers think they are leaving a safe gap but in reality they are not and I am speaking from personal experience.
Seen it first hand many times.
really, really…really? so you’re saying i’m in the wrong for saying what looks right and what i should do is judge it
i don’t think being able to judge a safe distance is to be reserved for the professional drivers
I did not say you were in the wrong…did I…? I said it depends on your perception which may be right or wrong.Have you ever has a second opinion?
Also I never said judging a safe distance is reserved for professional drivers.
The safe distances have been worked out by speed distance and weight and that is why I said it is better to rely on these factors rather than what you think is right.
You sound angry for some reason?
Yes, except the speed limits are the same whether you’ve got an empty trailer or the fat part of 30 tonnes on it. You can’t have it both ways it must either be perfectly safe to exceed the speed limit, in certain conditions, or the limit is dangerously high it can’t cut both ways.
I have noticed that you tedious finger waggers seem to have a massive blindspot where facts and logic are concerned. Luckily for you, I’m not a tedious finger wagger myself, or I’d be lecturing you, in the text equivalent of joyless monotone, on why you’re reckless not to walk round with a fresnel lens glued to the side of your face.
albion1971:
stevieboy308:
albion1971:
Fair enough you carry on but 38T takes about the same time to stop no matter which trailer it is on.Yes some loads are affected by braking but in general the average load when secure will react the same.Road surfaces obviously make a big difference to stopping distances.
I just hope you have good judgement…Safe driving.
have you ever had anything to do with adjusting brakes? and how it can affect braking
how about a half full tanker
anything other than straight, would brake as hard with a high center of gravity load as you would with a low center of gravity one?
i hope your formula is right… safe driving
albion1971:
I take it when you were with the driving examiners you had no load on? driving examiners can have absolutely no experience of driving heavy vehicles so maybe they are not the best to judge!
You still drive the same as when you passed your test I take it.
there’s no pleasing some people i defo had at least 2 driving assessments by people who had driven with stuff in the back.
no i’m far better now
Driven petrol tankers for 12 years in London (artics) and aircraft refuellers ( A frame drawbar) I could go on but I won’t…good luck.
Was it you that ran Whitbury Newtown Leisure Centre before this?
green456:
FarnboroughBoy11:
Be cheaper just to buy an old tractor unit and trailer with it sign written “nothing to see here” plastered across the side and park it across the accident scene.
Like the crappy ones you see in garden centres with 50% off
and how much room would you require to store all these tractor units and trailers 
who would maintain them and test them
and who would drive them or would you just put all the drivers in storage too cheaper my ■■■ 
“All these tractor units and trailers” ■■? What, one or two.
The police will drive them out of scope and without a license to and from the scene.
“Who will maintain them” ■■ No one is saying they are going to be covering 500 miles a day. An old shunter will do.
So yes much cheaper than the tiny ■■■■ poor 22 grand piece of crap screens that they are using there… You can see over the top of them anyway!!!
FarnboroughBoy11:
green456:
FarnboroughBoy11:
Be cheaper just to buy an old tractor unit and trailer with it sign written “nothing to see here” plastered across the side and park it across the accident scene.
Like the crappy ones you see in garden centres with 50% off
and how much room would you require to store all these tractor units and trailers who would maintain them and test them
and who would drive them or would you just put all the drivers in storage too cheaper my ■■■
“All these tractor units and trailers” ■■? What, one or two.
The police will drive them out of scope and without a license to and from the scene.
“Who will maintain them” ■■ No one is saying they are going to be covering 500 miles a day. An old shunter will do.
So yes much cheaper than the tiny ■■■■ poor 22 grand piece of crap screens that they are using there… You can see over the top of them anyway!!!
of course it would be cheaper ,as they wouldnt need extra tractor units , they could use the ummarked ones they use, for filming drivers from 
and I’m sure that most police forces have at least one, horse box, mobile police station trailer etc so they could use that too
Andydisco:
FarnboroughBoy11:
green456:
FarnboroughBoy11:
Be cheaper just to buy an old tractor unit and trailer with it sign written “nothing to see here” plastered across the side and park it across the accident scene.
Like the crappy ones you see in garden centres with 50% off
and how much room would you require to store all these tractor units and trailers who would maintain them and test them
and who would drive them or would you just put all the drivers in storage too cheaper my ■■■
“All these tractor units and trailers” ■■? What, one or two.
The police will drive them out of scope and without a license to and from the scene.
“Who will maintain them” ■■ No one is saying they are going to be covering 500 miles a day. An old shunter will do.
So yes much cheaper than the tiny ■■■■ poor 22 grand piece of crap screens that they are using there… You can see over the top of them anyway!!!
of course it would be cheaper ,as they wouldnt need extra tractor units , they could use the ummarked ones they use, for filming drivers from and I’m sure that most police forces have at least one, horse box, mobile police station trailer etc so they could use that too
Yes I forgot about those unmarked tractor units!!
I’ve refrained from speculating on the whys and wherefores of this particular tragic accident because it would serve no purpose and would not go any where near rebuilding the lives that have been shattered by this event.
The only thing I’ll say about this particular event is that it seems obvious that the HGV was in lane 2 of the M62 at the time of impact and also that mini bus had more bums than seats. Whether either of them two things is relevant is for others to figure out.
I will however relate a story of something that happened to me a number of years ago on the M25.
It was a bright sunny, dry day and the road was unusually quiet. I was driving an empty gp tanker at 56 mph when I caught sight of a stationary car on the h/s with his right indicator on. Two things go through my mind here, he’s either got his hazards on and his nearside indicator isn’t working or he’s going to pull into lane 1 from a standstill. After checking it was safe to do so I moved into lane 2. I didn’t flash him out because as we all know flashing headlights mean different things to different people.
Anyway I’m in lane 2 about 50 feet away from him when he starts to move off, not gradually into lane 1, but at almost 90 degrees into lane 2! The quandry now is do I stand on the brakes, do I undertake, or do I violently swerve into lane 3? I could have stood on the brakes but at about 20 feet away and about 40 mph faster I’m gonna hit him, I couldn’t undertake as he’s still half in lane 1 and half in lane 2. I took the only option and swerved into lane 3 (which I already knew to be clear) if the tanker had been loaded I’d have turned over, he’d have happily driven off and I’d have been in deep doo doo.
The point I’m trying to get across is if I had rear ended him it would probably have resulted in fatalities and without the benefit of a dash cam or witnesses I’d probably have ended up in a room with stripey windows!
Some things are not as clear cut as they seem at first glance.
That’s the best post in this entire thread and I couldn’t agree more.
Own Account Driver:
albion1971:
stevieboy308:
albion1971:
I am not saying I can avoid everything but I drive in a manner that gives me the best chance not to hit something if something out of the ordinary happens.
You say the gap you leave is what looks right? That is just your perception which may or may not be right.Surely a professional driver would know how to judge a safe gap rahter than just go by what he sees or thinks.
All I can say is a lot of experienced drivers think they are leaving a safe gap but in reality they are not and I am speaking from personal experience.
Seen it first hand many times.
really, really…really? so you’re saying i’m in the wrong for saying what looks right and what i should do is judge it
i don’t think being able to judge a safe distance is to be reserved for the professional drivers
I did not say you were in the wrong…did I…? I said it depends on your perception which may be right or wrong.Have you ever has a second opinion?
Also I never said judging a safe distance is reserved for professional drivers.
The safe distances have been worked out by speed distance and weight and that is why I said it is better to rely on these factors rather than what you think is rig
You sound angry for some reason?
Yes, except the speed limits are the same whether you’ve got an empty trailer or the fat part of 30 tonnes on it. You can’t have it both ways it must either be perfectly safe to exceed the speed limit, in certain conditions, or the limit is dangerously high it can’t cut both ways.
I have noticed that you tedious finger waggers seem to have a massive blindspot where facts and logic are concerned. Luckily for you, I’m not a tedious finger wagger myself, or I’d be lecturing you, in the text equivalent of joyless monotone, on why you’re reckless not to walk round with a fresnel lens glued to the side of your face.
Oh I never thought of that…silly me…did not know some vehicles are loaded and some are empty.Jeez…And I am not a finger wagger as you like to put it.
All I would like is to see the standards of LGV drivers improve because at present they are pretty poor.One of my pet hates are vehicles that will not keep a safe distance and everyday on the roads you see countless trucks following far too close.Bad accidents are caused by that and people get killed and badly injured.I don’ think it is a crime to want the roads to be safer.Do you?
I have also noticed that people that do not like authority are usually the worst offenders with a bad attitude.
the maoster:
I’ve refrained from speculating on the whys and wherefores of this particular tragic accident because it would serve no purpose and would not go any where near rebuilding the lives that have been shattered by this event.
The only thing I’ll say about this particular event is that it seems obvious that the HGV was in lane 2 of the M62 at the time of impact and also that mini bus had more bums than seats. Whether either of them two things is relevant is for others to figure out.
I will however relate a story of something that happened to me a number of years ago on the M25.
It was a bright sunny, dry day and the road was unusually quiet. I was driving an empty gp tanker at 56 mph when I caught sight of a stationary car on the h/s with his right indicator on. Two things go through my mind here, he’s either got his hazards on and his nearside indicator isn’t working or he’s going to pull into lane 1 from a standstill. After checking it was safe to do so I moved into lane 2. I didn’t flash him out because as we all know flashing headlights mean different things to different people.
Anyway I’m in lane 2 about 50 feet away from him when he starts to move off, not gradually into lane 1, but at almost 90 degrees into lane 2! The quandry now is do I stand on the brakes, do I undertake, or do I violently swerve into lane 3? I could have stood on the brakes but at about 20 feet away and about 40 mph faster I’m gonna hit him, I couldn’t undertake as he’s still half in lane 1 and half in lane 2. I took the only option and swerved into lane 3 (which I already knew to be clear) if the tanker had been loaded I’d have turned over, he’d have happily driven off and I’d have been in deep doo doo.
The point I’m trying to get across is if I had rear ended him it would probably have resulted in fatalities and without the benefit of a dash cam or witnesses I’d probably have ended up in a room with stripey windows!
Some things are not as clear cut as they seem at first glance.
Yes very good story.How often do you see things like that?
albion1971:
the maoster:
I’ve refrained from speculating on the whys and wherefores of this particular tragic accident because it would serve no purpose and would not go any where near rebuilding the lives that have been shattered by this event.
The only thing I’ll say about this particular event is that it seems obvious that the HGV was in lane 2 of the M62 at the time of impact and also that mini bus had more bums than seats. Whether either of them two things is relevant is for others to figure out.
I will however relate a story of something that happened to me a number of years ago on the M25.
It was a bright sunny, dry day and the road was unusually quiet. I was driving an empty gp tanker at 56 mph when I caught sight of a stationary car on the h/s with his right indicator on. Two things go through my mind here, he’s either got his hazards on and his nearside indicator isn’t working or he’s going to pull into lane 1 from a standstill. After checking it was safe to do so I moved into lane 2. I didn’t flash him out because as we all know flashing headlights mean different things to different people.
Anyway I’m in lane 2 about 50 feet away from him when he starts to move off, not gradually into lane 1, but at almost 90 degrees into lane 2! The quandry now is do I stand on the brakes, do I undertake, or do I violently swerve into lane 3? I could have stood on the brakes but at about 20 feet away and about 40 mph faster I’m gonna hit him, I couldn’t undertake as he’s still half in lane 1 and half in lane 2. I took the only option and swerved into lane 3 (which I already knew to be clear) if the tanker had been loaded I’d have turned over, he’d have happily driven off and I’d have been in deep doo doo.
The point I’m trying to get across is if I had rear ended him it would probably have resulted in fatalities and without the benefit of a dash cam or witnesses I’d probably have ended up in a room with stripey windows!
Some things are not as clear cut as they seem at first glance.
Yes very good story.How often do you see things like that?
The point being that they DO happen, how often do accidents occur like the one being discussed…very rarely thankfully.
The Hen Party Coach Driver is male and was also admitted to hospital.
The Mother and Sister of the deceased girl were also on the coach.
Prestige 2000 Coaches.
.
.
.
Discuss it, offer opinions, offer unlikely or very likely scenarios then when the conclusions of the investigation are known we can tot up the scores.
Diversion2:
Discuss it, offer opinions, offer unlikely or very likely scenarios then
when the conclusions of the investigation are known we can tot
up the scores.
That’s the problem - we never seem to get hold of solid conclusions
to accident investigations so that we may learn from these terrible incidents.
Hence the interesting speculation.
I would like to see LGV Accident Analysis modules included in the DriverCPC.
.
.
.
albion1971:
Yes very good story.How often do you see things like that?
I’m struggling to fully understand the intonation of your reply there Albion. If we were having a face to face discussion about this I’d be able to read the various nuances of your speech and body language and interpret your meaning. However, over the ether it only comes out in two possible ways, either you agree with my post and agree that as such none of us are in a position to apportion blame until all the facts are available, or (as I suspect) you have already made your mind up as to the guilt of the lorry driver and your “yes very good story” was the internet equivalent of patting a child on the head and telling him to run along. If I have misread your intentions then please accept my profound apologies.
the maoster:
The only thing I’ll say about this particular event is that it seems obvious that the HGV was in lane 2 of the M62 at the time of impact and also that mini bus had more bums than seats. Whether either of them two things is relevant is for others to figure out.
First time I’ve posted on here, but just curious what makes it obvious to you that the minibus had more bums than seats? As someone mentioned earlier the vehicle was on eBay not long ago, it’s either a 22 or 24 seater and there were 22 on board (including the driver)? I don’t know why the Farmfoods driver is being reported in various places as being a local man as it’s been widely reported that he’s from St Helens.
130simon:
the maoster:
The only thing I’ll say about this particular event is that it seems obvious that the HGV was in lane 2 of the M62 at the time of impact and also that mini bus had more bums than seats. Whether either of them two things is relevant is for others to figure out.
First time I’ve posted on here, but just curious what makes it obvious to you that the minibus had more bums than seats? As someone mentioned earlier the vehicle was on eBay not long ago, it’s either a 22 or 24 seater and there were 22 on board (including the driver)? I don’t know why the Farmfoods driver is being reported in various places as being a local man as it’s been widely reported that he’s from St Helens.
That mini bus is not a 22 seater nor is it a 24 seater. Look at the pictures.