Driveroneuk:
Signage: in case you’ve never noticed ALL m/way direction signs are blue. That is to confirm that you are traveling on a w/way. They’re not blue for M/way, green for A road & pink for Bob’s uncle’s place. However I totally agree it may improve clarity if A road signs were green. On the other hand, nearly every m/way exit is to an A or B road. To change signage colour would, if I’m not mistaken, require a change in the law.
Gantry location too late: Firstly you shouldn’t be acting on the information on that sign when you’re underneath it, but some distance before. That gantry is the confirmation sign, there being 2 others further back. The first at 1/2 mile as soon as you leave the fancy new Ferrybridge road layout. The dotted lane separation line also begins there. The second here well before the left lane splits off:
(how do I get that to link to the actual view as others have done above rather than just a link?)
Not saying it contributed but a driver carrying 20 mostly young attractive women all in very high spirits could have had concentration issues.
Very, very sad event this. Given the seriousness of the accident I’m sure the road layout will be looked at if its found to be a contributory factory. If you have witnessed near do’s there in the past it might be an idea to phone the Highways Agency and tell them what you saw.
No one is saying that the colour coding of motorway signage in this country isn’t all blue.But that doesn’t alter the fact, that the British idea,of having every type of motorway junction layout,all using the same colours to denote both the continuation of the motorway lanes and a seperate exit slip road lane leading to an A road,obviously isn’t the right way to do it because it isn’t as good as using seperate colours and pattern type to denote such a seperate lane that’s exiting to an A road ( as the French example which I posted shows ),or the French would obviously follow the British example ( if they were that stupid ).
As for the idea that the final repeat ‘confirmation’ sign isn’t too close to the exit slip road that’s total bs.No one is saying that you read the sign when you’re directly under it but the fact is that’s more or less the point you’ll be at when actually starting any manouvre to change lanes according to the directions contained on it because we’re talking about vehicles travelling at up to 70 mph and it would take that type of distance to read and process the information then to react and start the manouvre.Also remembering that the excuse for the 70 mph limit on motorways is to make allowances for the lowest common denominator of idiot on the roads.In which case,as I’ve said,the colour coding of uk motorway signs and putting direction signs that close to an exit slip road are an accident waiting to happen.
If you have Group D1 on your licence (whether by passing a test or under grandfather rights) then it only covers vehicles with up to 16 passenger seats. Something with 22 seats would require Group D entitlement, which I’m pretty sure has always been a separate test.
Roymondo:
If you have Group D1 on your licence (whether by passing a test or under grandfather rights) then it only covers vehicles with up to 16 passenger seats. Something with 22 seats would require Group D entitlement, which I’m pretty sure has always been a separate test.
albion1971: Just in general terms, the driver who hits into the back of someone usually gets the blame but like you say other drivers actions sometimes make this unavoidable.
Sorry do not agree.If a vehicle keeps a safe distance at all times it would be highly unlikely or very unusual circumstances where an accident would occur.
Unfortunately nowadays a lot of drivers perception of a safe distance is way off.
I think your ideas,concerning the impossibility of it not being possible to run into something from behind,regardless of what the vehicle ahead that’s been hit has done,so long as correct seperation distances are kept,is about as accurate as your ideas concerning the justice system.
In the real world it’s all about idiots cutting into and/or across motorway lanes,sometimes because of navigational errors, often with ridiculous speed differentials relative the unfortunate driver who’ve they’ve forced into an emergency stop or change of direction type manouvre.
In which case if that emergency stop or change of direction doesn’t work leading to the inevitable collision you’re then adding insult to injury by blaming that on the driver behind by confusing the issue and type of accident with the nose to tail shunt type of accident caused by lack of proper seperation distances.For the umpteenth time they are totally different types of accident caused by totally different reasons in one type of case it is caused by the vehicle ahead that’s been hit by the vehicle behind in the other type of case it’s vice versa.
The mission in this case is for those concerned to sort out which type it was.Luckily for the truck driver in this case you’re not one of those who’s investigating the case or determining his guilt or otherwise.While,as I’ve said,‘if’ your view of the situation was correct,I’m sure that there would have been an admission by the truck driver concerned that he’d run into the mini bus through no fault of the mini bus driver.In which case he’d have been charged with the offence he was arrested for followed by an admission of guilt in court considering the circumstances.
Turbovision:
I believe from the reports that everyone aboard the bus was a female. There was however a 56 year old lady among the injured who was the mother of the bridegroom. Could she have been the driver and if so would she have needed a PSV licence bearing in mind the minibus was carry at least 22 persons.
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“The male driver of the minibus, who works for Batley-based Prestige Coaches, is among those in hospital.”
FarnboroughBoy11:
Albion I have to disagree.
How about 1 mile distance between me and the vehicle in front in my lane, I assume you will agree that is a safe stopping distance.
Ok we are on a motorway so 4 lanes of traffic, lane 1 is a filter lane for a junction that is 1 mile away and that is the lane I am travelling in at about 50mph, lanes 2, 3 and 4 are the main carriage ways for people staying on and they are slowing quite rapidly, brake lights everywhere and they are doing about 30mph and still slowing down rapidly.
A van about 70 yards in front in the middle of the pack, from lane 3 signals left and moves into lane 2. At the same time a women in a car is actually accelerating to towards the slowing traffic in lane 2 and then cuts in front of me into lane 1 because she wants a clear lane ahead, but what she didn’t see was the van moving from lane 3 to lane 2, what she did see however was the vans signal still not cancelled from his manoeuvre so now he is down to about 10mph and still his left signal is on.
So she slams her anchors on pretty much doing an emergency stop and I have to take drastic action onto the hard shoulder to avoid running over her but luckily for her and everyone else, I was actually already on my brakes when this slag was still in lane 2 because I KNOW what she was thinking and I KNEW that she would cut in front of me so I was already making allowances for a safe gap in front that wasn’t even there yet!!!
You can make allowances all you want but you seem to believe that everything is unavoidable in front of you when it’s not… Yes most of the time it is… But sometimes it’s not.
Seems you have a bit of an attitude about safe distances? Firstly we are not talking about stopping distances as you say.
We are talking about a safe traveling distance from the vehicle in front.Do you know what that is and if you do how many trucks do you see keeping a safe distance in busy traffic on a motorway?
So many of the so called scenarios that you mention can be avoided through anticipation and awareness.
I have been driving trucks for many years and I can honestly say I have never once thought I was going to rear end another vehicle.Maybe I have been lucky but the way you drive can make a big difference and in my view driving standards have dropped dramatically over the last 20 years.
The roads are a lot busier now but that is no excuse not to drive safely.Far to many drivers make excuses for not driving safely.
FarnboroughBoy11:
Albion I have to disagree.
How about 1 mile distance between me and the vehicle in front in my lane, I assume you will agree that is a safe stopping distance.
Ok we are on a motorway so 4 lanes of traffic, lane 1 is a filter lane for a junction that is 1 mile away and that is the lane I am travelling in at about 50mph, lanes 2, 3 and 4 are the main carriage ways for people staying on and they are slowing quite rapidly, brake lights everywhere and they are doing about 30mph and still slowing down rapidly.
A van about 70 yards in front in the middle of the pack, from lane 3 signals left and moves into lane 2. At the same time a women in a car is actually accelerating to towards the slowing traffic in lane 2 and then cuts in front of me into lane 1 because she wants a clear lane ahead, but what she didn’t see was the van moving from lane 3 to lane 2, what she did see however was the vans signal still not cancelled from his manoeuvre so now he is down to about 10mph and still his left signal is on.
So she slams her anchors on pretty much doing an emergency stop and I have to take drastic action onto the hard shoulder to avoid running over her but luckily for her and everyone else, I was actually already on my brakes when this slag was still in lane 2 because I KNOW what she was thinking and I KNEW that she would cut in front of me so I was already making allowances for a safe gap in front that wasn’t even there yet!!!
You can make allowances all you want but you seem to believe that everything is unavoidable in front of you when it’s not… Yes most of the time it is… But sometimes it’s not.
Seems you have a bit of an attitude about safe distances? Firstly we are not talking about stopping distances as you say.
We are talking about a safe traveling distance from the vehicle in front.Do you know what that is and if you do how many trucks do you see keeping a safe distance in busy traffic on a motorway?
So many of the so called scenarios that you mention can be avoided through anticipation and awareness.
I have been driving trucks for many years and I can honestly say I have never once thought I was going to rear end another vehicle.Maybe I have been lucky but the way you drive can make a big difference and in my view driving standards have dropped dramatically over the last 20 years.
The roads are a lot busier now but that is no excuse not to drive safely.Far to many drivers make excuses for not driving safely.
Like you that’s the type of attitude that I’ve taken on the roads and ( luckily ) it’s kept me out of trouble.But.The fact is your speration distance isn’t always in your own hands in the situation whereby someone decides to cut in front of you with a massive speed differential or possibly even brakes just after doing so.
It seems to me that you’re mixing up the two types of scenario of nose to tail shunts caused by lack of seperation distance as opposed to the ‘possible’ cause in this case of a truck in lane 1 suddenly being faced with a mini bus that’s re entered the motorway at a ridiculously low speed,having slowed up to avoid going down the slip road from an exit lane, and then tried his best,and unfortunately failed ,to avoid the inevitable results.
However ‘IF’ you’re right,concerning the cause of the accident,then it’s up to the truck driver to do the decent thing and admit it and face the consequences of his actions which,as I’ve said should be severe in this case as an example to others.
I understand what you are saying but please tell me if a minibus entered the motorway at a very slow speed why would you not see it?
And if you did see it why would you hit it with such an impact?
Please don’t get me wrong I really hope it was not the truck drivers fault or the mini bus drivers because they will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
But I really can’t understand why the truck has hit the bus with so much impact unless something like a brake failure occured.
Let’s hope it was a mechanical failure rather than human error but sadly it is usually the latter.
FarnboroughBoy11:
Albion I have to disagree.
How about 1 mile distance between me and the vehicle in front in my lane, I assume you will agree that is a safe stopping distance.
Ok we are on a motorway so 4 lanes of traffic, lane 1 is a filter lane for a junction that is 1 mile away and that is the lane I am travelling in at about 50mph, lanes 2, 3 and 4 are the main carriage ways for people staying on and they are slowing quite rapidly, brake lights everywhere and they are doing about 30mph and still slowing down rapidly.
A van about 70 yards in front in the middle of the pack, from lane 3 signals left and moves into lane 2. At the same time a women in a car is actually accelerating to towards the slowing traffic in lane 2 and then cuts in front of me into lane 1 because she wants a clear lane ahead, but what she didn’t see was the van moving from lane 3 to lane 2, what she did see however was the vans signal still not cancelled from his manoeuvre so now he is down to about 10mph and still his left signal is on.
So she slams her anchors on pretty much doing an emergency stop and I have to take drastic action onto the hard shoulder to avoid running over her but luckily for her and everyone else, I was actually already on my brakes when this slag was still in lane 2 because I KNOW what she was thinking and I KNEW that she would cut in front of me so I was already making allowances for a safe gap in front that wasn’t even there yet!!!
You can make allowances all you want but you seem to believe that everything is unavoidable in front of you when it’s not… Yes most of the time it is… But sometimes it’s not.
Seems you have a bit of an attitude about safe distances? Firstly we are not talking about stopping distances as you say.
We are talking about a safe traveling distance from the vehicle in front.Do you know what that is and if you do how many trucks do you see keeping a safe distance in busy traffic on a motorway?
So many of the so called scenarios that you mention can be avoided through anticipation and awareness.
I have been driving trucks for many years and I can honestly say I have never once thought I was going to rear end another vehicle.Maybe I have been lucky but the way you drive can make a big difference and in my view driving standards have dropped dramatically over the last 20 years.
The roads are a lot busier now but that is no excuse not to drive safely.Far to many drivers make excuses for not driving safely.
No I don’t have an attitude about safe distances, I’m not sure how you read my post but I wasn’t intending to typing it with an attitude.
But why are you trying to nit pick? Safe distance travelling and stopping distances are all incorporated into the same situation that we are discussing… If you are travelling too close, then you won’t be able to stop.
How many trucks do I see keeping a safe distance on motorways?? Hardly any.
And I completely agree with the last half of your post.
The driver has not been charged yet, he has been bailed so the police can gather further evidence.
Once they have enough evidence he will then be charged in front of a custody Sgt and given a court date, that’s if anything has popped up to charge him with anything.
albion1971:
I understand what you are saying but please tell me if a minibus entered the motorway at a very slow speed why would you not see it?
And if you did see it why would you hit it with such an impact?
Possible scenario.
Truck is in lane 2 overtaking, sees the mini bus up ahead slowing down going up the slip road and thinks that the last he will ever see of him. Truck then checks his n/s mirror for 1 second and sees that he’s safe to move back into lane 1, looks back ahead and sees lane 1 is clear but at the same time the mini bus is about to slam on and do an aggressive right hand down back across the chevrons and into lane 1 but the truck driver has checked his n/s mirror for the second time and starts to move over while this is happening.
By the time he’s looked back there is that mini bus who was half way up the slip road but now suddenly in lane 1 doing 20mph.
weve all experienced the situation,where youre trying to move out into lane 2,and a vehicle approaching slows to let you out,but right on your arse end corner.
it takes a fraction of a second longer(looking in the mirror) to decide weather it`s safe to pull out or not.alot can happen in front of you during that fraction of a second…and what was a safe seperation distance has now vanished
Hiya… so the mini bus company are from Batley. that must be only 5 mins drive from the crash site.
shurley the driver would know the mororway sign’s as he must use the area all the time.
John
Turbovision:
Hi Guys - New member here so be gentle.
We already know from the newspapers a few details on the Farm Foods driver. But who was the driver of the minibus?
Was it a driver contracted to a minibus firm and therefore hired out along with the minibus?
Or was the minibus itself merely hired to the girls who then arranged themselves for one of their party to do the driving?
I believe from the reports that everyone aboard the bus was a female. There was however a 56 year old lady among the injured who was the mother of the bridegroom. Could she have been the driver and if so would she have needed a PSV licence bearing in mind the minibus was carry at least 22 persons.
I gleaned from the photos that the minibus was a Mercedes and appeared to bear the registration plate CRZ 4816.
If so that makes it a model manufactured in 2002 with a 2800cc engine. A bit small I would have thought
If this is the case I just wondered what the maximum seating capacity should have been. There did seem to be a lot of passengers on board for such a ‘not so large’ minibus.
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Don’t really see the relevance of your post, the engine size has no bearing on anything whatsoever especially as minibuses identical to this one have been on the roads for years.
The driver wouldn’t need a PSV license if it was not driven for hire or reward providing they have the entitlement on their license, any jo public can hire a mini bus providing they have the correct entitlement, what they cant do is hire it and charge people to travel on it.
Oh and i believe the minibus can seat around 22 people, just have a look on Ebay for the for sale.
How come you also posted the exact same post on Digital Spy? Are you trolling?
Hey that last bit is hostile isn’t it.
If you bothered to look at what I posted on Digital Spy and what I posted here it isn’t exactly the same post as you put it.
I only posted here ( for the first time ever ) as a similar post I made on Digital Spy received no responses at all.
I came here thinking there may be a bit of expertise regarding the use of minibuses and licencing laws but I am rather put off now by the lack of social skills on this forum.
albion1971:
I understand what you are saying but please tell me if a minibus entered the motorway at a very slow speed why would you not see it?
And if you did see it why would you hit it with such an impact?
Please don’t get me wrong I really hope it was not the truck drivers fault or the mini bus drivers because they will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
But I really can’t understand why the truck has hit the bus with so much impact unless something like a brake failure occured.
Let’s hope it was a mechanical failure rather than human error but sadly it is usually the latter.
Blimey albion you really do seem to have some issues when it comes to understanding the meaning of speed differentials.If the mini bus driver did what I’m thinking he might possibly have done it wasn’t an issue of the truck driver not seeing it.It would have been an issue of suddenly effectively having a mini bus put just in front of the truck in lane 1 with a massive speed differential between the two vehicles that’s too close to do anything about except go for lane 2 and hope that the truck clears it before it hits it.The severity of the impact is indicative and a direct result of the speed differential between the two vehicles.In this case probably the equivalent of the ruck running into a parked mini bus at around 35-40 mph.
Whereas if you were to drive a fast car on an unlimited stretch of autobahn it can be the equivalent of driving on a motorway at around 80-90 mph with a lot of the traffic ahead and around you all being parked and if anyone gets it wrong with a force of impact to match.
carryfast I understand speed differentials perfectly well probably more than most although that is another matter.I have also driven on many autobahns.
What I do not understand is how any other vehicle can suddenly just appear right in front of you without you seeing it first unless you are not keeping a safe distance or not paying close attention.
Vehicles do not just suddenly appear in front of you! and if somehow one did as I said before you brake or take avoiding action but judging by the impact it does not look like that happened in this case.
,to avoid the inevitable results.