Stravaiger,the problem of shortages,rationing etc was not just confined to the British truck manufacturers.It was the whole of British industry.They had an easy life for a long time selling their goods worldwide to the great British Commonwealth countries,a more or less captive market.If you wanted their goods fine,they would take your order and tell you when they would manufacture it.If your motor broke down for something more than a filter,then you waited while the agent got one from the manufacturer.
During the sixties and seventies they never noticed that the Commonwealth was shrinking,they didnt notice the foreign trucks becoming available,trucks which had a cab to suit the driver,trucks which had service backup better than anything currently on offer. We see and hear plenty talk about the great British marques and in their day there were some good ones,but,only when compared to other British models. How many British motors of the early/middle seventies could hold a candle to Dafs,Volvos,Scanias,they were in a different league. We couldnt buy two 240 Gardners because there was such a demand for them and old man Gardner wouldnt allow mass production techniques to speed things up. I did major repair work to Dafs all over Britain.In laybys,services and yards we thought nothing of doing pistons and liners,(it was a major problem with 2300s)and similar jobs.I only had to call Daf Aid? and they would tell me where I could get spares and would get people out their beds to give me them.Ive even stripped parts of new units because there was nothing in the store.There was nothing like that on offer from the British manufacturers. Sorry about the rant but Ive seen the very same thing with the British Machine Tool industry.Im actually a machine tool fitter.Britain led the world in that market up to the mid seventies,by the mid eighties it was gone for ever.The biggest m/c tool company in the world was British based in Coventry now long gone. BTW,I really enjoy this whole forum,loads and loads of nostalgia.I dont recognise many of the drivers named in the various threads but I remember the companies,the motors and the times.
Mark.
great threads being posted here lads and pics…
Now exuse my ingnorance but why was there a waiting list from the british manufactur’s … that helped in the demise and why was it so simple for the swede’s to move in on supply and demand with Ex stock basically waiting in the wings… ?.. i have often wondered why they couldn’t supply them but been to scared to ask… 
man-tga:
great threads being posted here lads and pics…Now exuse my ingnorance but why was there a waiting list from the british manufactur’s … that helped in the demise and why was it so simple for the swede’s to move in on supply and demand with Ex stock basically waiting in the wings… ?.. i have often wondered why they couldn’t supply them but been to scared to ask…
During the late 60s British manufactures were just dismissive of the European offerings which in most cases they were quite correct but the Swedes were another matter that once you slotted a Scania or a Volvo into a British fleet that was the begining of the end as the drivers all clamoured for the Swedes and no matter what the UK manufacturers offered from then on they were only ever playing catch -up ! The Scanias were by far the best import and outclassed any UK Truck even the ledgendary Gardners for for reliability,Fuel economy,re-sale value ect ect. A lot of good operators did persevere with UK trucks in their fleets well into the 80s but by then it was a lost cause I am sad to say . Bewick
[quote
The Scanias were by far the best import and outclassed any UK Truck even the ledgendary Gardners for for reliability,Fuel economy,re-sale value ect ect. A lot of good operators did persevere with UK trucks in their fleets well into the 80s but by then it was a lost cause I am sad to say . Bewick[/quote]
Got to agree with you there.The Scanias were brilliant trucks from a mechanics point of view.
Very reliable,weekly inspections never found much,always needed very little if anything done to them.
Nobody ever seems to have a good word to say about them now though and I can`t comment as I haven`t worked on trucks for over twenty years
Do you think Gardners would have survived all the anti emission rules if they`d still been around?
Mark.
One observation and maybe a minor point but bear with me - I worked on, and drove an awful lot of scania 1 2 and 3 series during the 70s and 80s and the one think that always struck me was the gearchange, no matter what the mileage or how it had been treated the Scania gearstick was always slick with very little slop. Remember that ERF’s and Sed atki’s of the same era , they were always like stirring a pudding after a few years
Scania Quality or UK complacency (and maybe bad design) ■■
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Yes Jim, that was the same cab on the old 5 pot ERF Unit I mentioned but that is first I’ve seen of that old Chinese Six, I know Suttons did have an old Maudsley Chinese Six with Trailer but I never saw that either. Suttons had at least 5 TVW consisting of 3 Units, 1 Six Wheeler (single drive) which pulled a trailer for a period and the 4 Wheeler in the picture which only had an 18ft body on it and pulled a 20ft Trailer, The 3 Units started out with Commer TS3 two strokes in them which were only fitted with a single small silencer, Commer fitted two beefy silencers and you could hear them comeing for miles allthough not as bad as the Foden two stroke, anyway these units only had one puny silencer which made them very, very loud they also had a home made exhaust brake fitted which resulted in the exhaust be blown off easily, not a good idea on a two stroke!!! These 5 all ended up with the Gardner 6LW with David Brown box, the cab as some will have recognised was as fitted to a lot of Guys and others and with the TS3 would be like a ballroom and put some modern units to shame for room…Tony,
stravaiger:
With all the different arrangements manufacturers have especially on gearboxes but also on other controls I’ve often said thank god they all agreed to put the brake in the middle and now you’re saying Tony it wasn’t always the case. Scary. That must’ve had some funny and not so funny moments for drivers flitting between wagons. Did it?Well Jim, we used to have a BMC Roadsweeper (the same model as shown in the sales brochure) that had twin driving positions, ie two steering wheel’s and handbrake’s, and the R/H driving position had conventional pedals BUT the N/S position for sweeping had the throttle in the centre which took some getting used too when you swopped seats. Our old Morris Commercial Quad recovery truck also had a central throttle.
Pete.
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Well Jim, the first thing to remember is a lot of fleets were mainly made up of motors bought from BRS on partial denationalisation which could be a very mixed job lot of vehicles indeed, in all sorts of condition and all ages a lot very old, if you were selling of motors at the BRS you would hardly sell the newest and best would you, so a lot of motors really needed to be renewed, but at this time Britain still had steel rationing which reduced new vehicle construction plus because of desperate requirements for foreign exchange which could only be got by exporting goods, Lorry makers were required to export first 60% later 50% of their production, this meant that if you ordered a new Leyland Octopus 8 wheeler for example it was at least 2 years before you were liable to see your new Lorry and that was if you were a preffered customer, these restrictions were only eased in about 1957/8. So the only way to modernise and increase your fleet was to rebuild it, Suttons took delivery of 18 motors from the BRS, these were mainly Atkinson double drive 6 wheelers with a heavy chassis, there was 1 Maudsly Chinese 6, he had allready on order from Atkinson Vehicles two new 8 wheelers which were fitted with the new bow fronted cab, by the way as a manager at St Helens BRS where he had been very successful Alf Sutton had investigated the various makes run by the BRS and had come to the conclusion that the Atkinson was the best vehicle at this time and nearing denationalisation had earmarked the vehicles he wanted and had made sure the fitters had them in tip top shape only to see at the last minute these vehicles being moved away elseware and being replaced by a very dubious bunch. He soon had these ex BRS Atkinson 6 wheelers rebuilt which included a new lightweight chassis, the double drive reduced to single drive and trailing axle and the addition of a second steer axle and a light weight Aluminium body and so you had the well known Sutton 8 wheeled Trunk waggon which was now able to carry nearly 4 tons more but still keep to tare on the “O” license. I can rember in around 1963 Suttons having two Leyland Octopus 8 Wheelers which regularly towed trailers, these were fitted with the 24 cab and their Reg No’s were GDJ 83 & KDJ 175 anyway the cabs on these two were begining show rust and on two successive weekends these cabs were replaced with brand new and fully painted and sign written, inside and out and the did not miss a trip. There is a story about Siddle C. Cook who did a lot of Heavy Haulage from the North East who ordered a big 6 wheel heavy Tractor from Fodens only to be told he would have to wait. He then set about ordering spare parts from Fodens which included such things as a cab, chassis etc. yes you’ve guessed, he then proceeded put these “spares” together into a Foden Heavy Haulage Tractor, on the way deciding to put the chassis in back to front as he felt this was stronger. As an aside I assume you are aware that Elddis Transport is or was run by the son(s) of Siddle, Elddis being Siddle in reverse and also the Eddis Caravan. Anyway I hope the aforementioned information is of interest and that I am not trying to teach my Grandmother to ■■■■ eggs…Tony.
It seems some owners, managers or fleet engineers were forward thinking at a time when there was money to be made from transport by converting or refurbishing vehicles and trailers after the days of nationalisation, a bit early for my age then but I remember during the late Sixties converting trailers and later adding another axle to Tandems when the 38 tonne law became a reality and at the same time alot of ideas were coming out about adding axles to 4x2 Tractors so trailers wouldn’t need a conversion. I liked that sort of work and seeing something succesfully run on the road that you had a hand in changing was satisfying. At the same time some firms didn’t jump the gun and waited to see what would pan out before doing any unnecessary work or money spending. Much more interesting from a fitters point of view to work for the more enterprising outfits. The Walls AEC is a good example although I bet later they wished they had only got rid of one rear axle and kept them as Chinese Six’s when the weights changed but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Franky.
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Yes Jim, the A, B and C licenses used to throw up some strokes, the “A” license was the normal unrestricted general haulage license would apply to a vehicle on tare or unladen weight, so if you had an “A” license for 8 ton then you would want an 8 wheeler which meant at 24 ton Gross you had a 16 ton carrying capacity, fine, but a normal 8 wheeler weighed about half a ton over 8 ton so you could not put an 8 wheeler on your “A” license, except there were some wheezes to overcome this problem. Inter-City who we have both worked for, in my time were an Leyland Octopuss buyer, now the leyland Octopuss 8 Wheeler was not a light motor but by sending it in to be weighed when new with a special body which consisted of special light raves, only a few crossmembers a light headboard, no floor boards but covered by a special flysheet and only 4 retaining U bolts, no spare wheel and the inner rear wheels missing could reduce the unladen weight for weighing purposes allthough of course the waggon would be hopeless at trying to haul a load in this condition. At Inter-Cities London depot we also kept a Trailer of a similar type to those used behind the Schammel Mechanical Horse by the Railways which was only used for weighing purposes, all tricks of the trade. As I remember the “B” license was a restricted license usually to a limited radius of operations while the “C” license were for one customers manufactured goods or ancillary products also used by own account companies…Tony.
Suttons Tony:
sending it in to be weighed when new with a special body which consisted of special light raves, only a few crossmembers a light headboard, no floor boards but covered by a special flysheet and only 4 retaining U bolts, no spare wheel and the inner rear wheels missing could reduce the unladen weight for weighing purposes allthough of course the waggon would be hopeless at trying to haul a load in this condition.
That has reminded me of my first honest employment when I worked as a commercial body builder, it was after the A,B & C licensing but due to excise duties and driving licences we had to keep the weights down too. A truck weighing under 3 old Tons could be driven on a car licence and was an HGV if it weighed more than 5 tons I think it would come under a higher tax
threshold.
It was legal to remove all tools and accessories to officially weigh the truck. iirc it had to have a body, the dimensions must remain the same as the use to which it was to be put. So we removed the spare wheel, jacks, wheel braces and even floorboards. We were building caravan transporter bodies and we would even remove the extending towbars and winch brackets. The truck at the weighbridge would probably weigh another ton when all the equipment was refitted with all the lashings, ramps and wide vehicle signage
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A couple of things lads. Where and when did the notion of the Knights of the Road begin? And did the Atkinson Knight grill badge have its beginnings in those tales of chivalry?..jimstravaiger
SENIOR MEMBER
Brilliant story Jim, the only thing that I can add was that as a kid I seem to think that there was a Sunday newspaper which I think might of been The News Of The World and they used to have a column where people would nominate somebody who had helped them out on the road. For example, somebody helped me change a wheel in Gretna or Mr So and so gave me a jump start near Nottingham. I think that they sent out a silver knight’s helmet to The Good Samariten which was about the size of an R.A.C. badge so that the driver could display it on his badge bar, do you remember those ?.
I don’t know what or if there was a connection with Atkinson as this was in the early sixties but the badges were similar. This was in the days when the A.A. man would salute you whenever he saw your A.A. badge proudly displayed on your car.
Back in 1965 a workmate who had just come back from a camping holiday in Anglesey told me that he had broken down near Bangor in his Ford Anglia. The A.A. patrolman who used to stand by the A.A. box on The Menei Bridge came to his rescue and my friend asked him if he saluted every car that passed. The patrolman told him that on one occasion somebody had actually turned around and told him that he hadn’t saluted them 
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Hi Andrew
Several companies in the UK specialised in conversions at the time these included Prmrose, York & Boyes who all produced axles and specialised in chassis conversions. We had a BMC tipper with a Primrose conversion fitted with a light tipping body it was a match for payload with the 8 wheeler Leylands, I have an advertising leaflet somewhere with this vehicle included, this type of vehicle was given to drivers which were known to be steady with a truck, in the wrong hands halfshafts were always a problem. We also also bought 2 second hand Leyland Super Comets with a Boyes third axle conversion, like the York these axles were in two separate parts and pivoted on a beam like an independant suspension. These trucks were not very good in off road work as they did not have axle lifts in them days. After accidents both of these trucks were cut down and made into 4x2 tractor units and re-registered: yes you could do that in them days! as there was no testing.
I can also recall that Primrose turned out a few Bedford TK 8 wheelers one of which ended up in the North East.
Regards Ken
Pebbles 74:
Hello All,Another question, but on much the same subject; Having recently read the article about the 8x4 (8x2?) Bedford TK in New Zealand I got to thinking, were these additional axles available Ex-Works from Bedford or did they all go somewhere else (Primrose or whoever) for conversion prior to delivery? Following on from Stravaiger’s question, what were the manufacturer / dealers attitudes to these conversions? Warranty?
Perhaps somebody can remember?
Thanks, Andrew
stravaiger:
Chris Webb:
We all see those bulled up modern wagons about nowadays,you know 500 odd BHP and 56 mph things…
…Then he got this Austin 6-legger… in Firth Browns Sheffield,one drop by the looks of it.
Chris this follows on from the question Iv’e been asking Tony and John of the power plants in relation to the legal gross weight in the Seddon in particular but now it can be generalised. Prior to the 6 bhp per ton introduced late 70s was there a minimum output? Take your pals Austin for example was it expected to work at 20 ton? with the same engine as a 4 wheeler at 14 ton. must have been a hard days work
Had never thought too much about these things but thinking back to around '76 I had a short spell (Even shorter than intended) on a Bedford KM 6 wheeler with the same 143bhp power pack as the bosses 4 wheelers had and I think I just assumed it was a Bedford thing and a throwback in thinking to Bedfords 50% extra claim over the years. I was blaming myself initially when it “Blew Up” on the Motorway. Turns out it had taken a roasting with the regular driver weeks earlier. The point is did they just graft an extra axle on and carry on as before? And were the manufacturers in agreement with this practice? I take it that’s more than one question nowI do like value for money.
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Haven’t been around here for quite a while due to moving house but…it’s been great catching up.
What a brilliant thread - really, this stuff needs to be preserved. I don’t think of myself as THAT old, but my driving days were late sixties to late seventies and it seems like a lost world now - tatty old Seddons most of the time (the crap ones with the AEC engines). A Guy Big J seemed like the last word in modernity.
Somewhere on here I came across a mention of London-Scottish Transport (and now I can’t find it). I well remember the old(er) guys telling stories of their London-Scottish days, but can’t find anything on the internet at all. I guess they were a fairly big outfit, but actually before my time. They still intrigue me though - anyone point me in the direction of any info?
PS Bet you haven’t come across any photos of Jubilee Transport (Wishaw) yet Jim 