ITV elders debate

[del949]

uyoyo5
You make 3 claims there. That the banks didn’t cause the recession. Thats true but their actions vastly increased its effects and caused the need for the amount of austerity we have.
Secondly you claim that a majority like zero hours contracts. ALL the evidence shows that whilst a few do prefer them the majority don’t
Thirdly you claim that most food bank users are scroungers who don’t want to work. What does it take to get through to people like you that …
IF THERE ARE NO JOBS AVAILABLE YOU CAN’T WORK. While in some areas ther ARE jobs available in others there simply are none.
Many disabled have been declared “fit for work” and have had their benefits cut massively but because of their disability are not able to find any work, why would an empolyer use a disabled worker when he can get an able bodied worker for the same money… the result, another “workshy scrounger”
Some of these disabled have gone on to die of cancer within weeks of being told they were fit.
Stop listening to the Tory divide and rule rhetoric and use your own brain to see whats happening.

More money is spent by the government propping up families on low wages with tax credits etc than all the unemployment benefits, is it really right for the government to use YOUR taxes to subsidise firm who don’t pay enough wages to workers.Because virtually all the zero hours workers will be in some way claiming benefits.

I AM a socialist. I believe that there are those who simply cannot look after themselves even though on the face of it they should be able to. There have always been those who cannot work, in other countries they beg or starve, there have always been scroungers, there have always been terminally sick people, I don’t want to be part of a country that says “Tough, I’m alright”.

[carryfast]

del949:
uyoyo5
You make 3 claims there. That the banks didn’t cause the recession. Thats true but their actions vastly increased its effects and caused the need for the amount of austerity we have.
Secondly you claim that a majority like zero hours contracts. ALL the evidence shows that whilst a few do prefer them the majority don’t
Thirdly you claim that most food bank users are scroungers who don’t want to work. What does it take to get through to people like you that …
IF THERE ARE NO JOBS AVAILABLE YOU CAN’T WORK. While in some areas ther ARE jobs available in others there simply are none.
Many disabled have been declared “fit for work” and have had their benefits cut massively but because of their disability are not able to find any work, why would an empolyer use a disabled worker when he can get an able bodied worker for the same money… the result, another “workshy scrounger”
Some of these disabled have gone on to die of cancer within weeks of being told they were fit.
Stop listening to the Tory divide and rule rhetoric and use your own brain to see whats happening.

More money is spent by the government propping up families on low wages with tax credits etc than all the unemployment benefits, is it really right for the government to use YOUR taxes to subsidise firm who don’t pay enough wages to workers.Because virtually all the zero hours workers will be in some way claiming benefits.

I AM a socialist. I believe that there are those who simply cannot look after themselves even though on the face of it they should be able to. There have always been those who cannot work, in other countries they beg or starve, there have always been scroungers, there have always been terminally sick people, I don’t want to be part of a country that says “Tough, I’m alright”.

The fact is those who’ve been stitched up by the socialist idea of state controlled income protection benefits only have themselves to blame.In that it is just a rip off scheme which is all about paying for bad value for money ‘cover’ that doesn’t cover anyone for their own trade and which has movable goal posts in regard to claims criterea definitions.Which in reality is just another form of tax for the government and a subsidy for employers in saving them the wages needed for decent private cover.Which,unlike state benefits,is subject to the law of contract which means that the terms of claiming can’t be altered and offer far better realistic cover.

While also unfortunately for the idea of socialism you’ve got the fact of human nature against you wether it be ethnic integration or the idea of the self preservation society.That applies wether it be the average rich Con voter.Or the hypocrite socialist who was all for taking advantage of a state provided house at subsidised rents until Thatcher offered them the even better carrot of a below market value sell off.In which case they suddenly became ‘Capitalists’ of the worst type in calling their deposit and mortgage paying work mates ‘militant’ ‘lefty’ trade unionists.

There is no such thing as a free lunch and your ideas just make a stick for the Cons to turn against the working classes who are more than capable of turning and likely to turn,against each other,than the Cons in that regard.Which is why we’ve got young people calling for what they perceive as being best for them at the expense of everyone else for example.Until they become old themselves then they suddenly change their tune.

On that note the idea of them calling for ‘helping’ them onto ‘the housing ladder’ is actually just yet another self interest idea of calling for below market value housing development with an inbuilt profit margin.That they can then take advantage of by expecting the next person below them to pay for their housing upgrade which is the definition of ‘ladder’ in that case.Just as most of those who took advantage of Thatcher’s ‘right to buy’ scheme did.The fact is socialism stinks in being a something for nothing culture,made for hypocrites,all based on the politics of envy.

[del949]

Carryfast, your arguments are so convoluted that they are almost impossible to follow. added to this you repeatedly go back to events that happened 30+ years ago.
I live here and now, 2015
Taking out the fluff that the Tories like to pedal, the vast majority of the welfare budget is spent helping those in trouble one way or another .
Yes I agree that the exceptions should be weeded out and stopped but not at the expense of the genuinley needy who are then ignored or abandoned.
I am retired with state pension, two company pensions, as is my wife, so we are fairly comfortable. I will certainly be better off financially under the Tories … but am not prepared to see neighbours, friends and relatives etc who need help deprived of it if it costs me only a few quid a year.
I realise that many are not able to be generous in that way and must look to their own needs first and foremost, but at the same time i wonder how many of those deriding benefit claimants on the forum are actually claiming benefits themselves, even if only tax credits and family allowance.

[carryfast]

del949:
Carryfast, your arguments are so convoluted that they are almost impossible to follow. added to this you repeatedly go back to events that happened 30+ years ago.
I live here and now, 2015
Taking out the fluff that the Tories like to pedal, the vast majority of the welfare budget is spent helping those in trouble one way or another .
Yes I agree that the exceptions should be weeded out and stopped but not at the expense of the genuinley needy who are then ignored or abandoned.
I am retired with state pension, two company pensions, as is my wife, so we are fairly comfortable. I will certainly be better off financially under the Tories … but am not prepared to see neighbours, friends and relatives etc who need help deprived of it if it costs me only a few quid a year.
I realise that many are not able to be generous in that way and must look to their own needs first and foremost, but at the same time i wonder how many of those deriding benefit claimants on the forum are actually claiming benefits themselves, even if only tax credits and family allowance.

As it stands ‘here and now’ the social security ( income protection ) system isn’t fit for purpose.Much of the reason for that being supposedly Labour governments that introduced it for ‘some reason’ didn’t make it subject to the law of contract.IE the definitions criterea for claims and payment levels themselves can be changed on a whim.

As for me I’d be ‘here and now’ financially destitute and no doubt to add insult to injury also called a ‘scrounger’ by so called socialists ‘if’ I’d have been stupid enough to have relied on state social security sickness provision.By the same standard no I don’t see why I should pay for the education,social provision and living costs of others.Wether it be previous taxes and national insurance contributions which I’d like repaid.Or low interest rates on the private provision I’ve made for myself.Which are all about subsidising the loans of underpaid workers who think it is militant to ask/fight for decent wages to pay their own way in life.

As for your final sentence that just confirms what I said socialism is all about hypocrisy and the politics of envy.

[del949]

I fail to see why the last sentence leads you to say that. The majority of those, on here anyway, who support looking after oneself to the exclusion of others would hardly describe themselves as “socialist”.
Indeed from what I have read, many of the more vociferous amongst the posters supporting the Tories/ Farage, are a bit more right wing than Thatcher was.
Certainly the me, me, me, state that the Tories have nurtured is coming to fruit now.

[muckaway]

I think you should only get out what you’ve put in so sorry students with honours degrees in “Leisure and Tourism but can’t get a job” you’ve never worked so you’re not getting benefit. Even if you did a “gap year” (■■■■ all) building mud huts in Kenya.

[dave_the_renegade]

I am a Director/Trustee of a Disabled charity, and I agree with del949. Farage is right wing and would be even worse than Thatcher. I am one of the luckier Disabled people,in so far that my accident happened at work and I get a good industrial pension. I also still work as an external TM.

The sooner we get rid of this Tory government the better.They have cut benefits to genuine Disabled people who are already disadvantaged. People who were on the lower rate of the Disabled Living Allowance have had it taken off them, under the points system introduced by the Tory Government.
The Conservatives are for the rich and well off, and always have been.

[carryfast]

del949:
I fail to see why the last sentence leads you to say that. The majority of those, on here anyway, who support looking after oneself to the exclusion of others would hardly describe themselves as “socialist”.
Indeed from what I have read, many of the more vociferous amongst the posters supporting the Tories/ Farage, are a bit more right wing than Thatcher was.
Certainly the me, me, me, state that the Tories have nurtured is coming to fruit now.

Firstly so called left v so called right is just a matter of ( often flawed ) perceptions.

As you said yourself many of those shouting loudest about ‘scroungers’ are themselves all about wanting handouts and insulation from the free market.Wether it be in the form of low wage subsidies and top ups or help to buy a house in whatever form.Such as lower than market value pricing or artificially low interest rates.Which is just a socialist type wealth re distribution scam which rips off savers to help home buyers.Or which ruins previously nice areas with excessive urbanisation and overdevelopment amongst other ‘social issues’.Who’ll then be only too pleased to take advantage of the situation by pocketing the profits themselves when they sell to move ‘up the ladder’.They’ll also be more than happy to expect others to pay for the education of their children and expect state funded health care.

Meanwhile Farage is actually telling it like it is in saying it is all about earning enough wages for people to look after themselves.But ironically by that logic we need to be moving further to the so called ‘right’ than Farage in the form of the French FN.In which case as I’ve said a policy which ditches global free market economics in favour of protectionism and stops cheap labour based immigration is way more to the ‘actual left’ than so called ‘Labour’.

[carryfast]

Dave the Renegade:
I am a Director/Trustee of a Disabled charity, and I agree with del949. Farage is right wing and would be even worse than Thatcher. I am one of the luckier Disabled people,in so far that my accident happened at work and I get a good industrial pension. I also still work as an external TM.

The sooner we get rid of this Tory government the better.They have cut benefits to genuine Disabled people who are already disadvantaged. People who were on the lower rate of the Disabled Living Allowance have had it taken off them, under the points system introduced by the Tory Government.
The Conservatives are for the rich and well off, and always have been.

Or in other words as I said a poor value for money system of income protection insurance that is applied on a if someone’s face fits basis.Even by your own obviously socialist definition.

Which is why I couldn’t claim incapacity benefit after having been put off work on health grounds because the definition and criterea for a claim makes it effectively worthless.While my own private policy covered me just for being healthy enough or not to do ‘my own job’ not some bs idea of ‘incapacity’ meaning blind and paralysed from the neck down as in Muckaway’s definition.That issue applying under a so called ‘Labour’ government just the same as Cons.

[dave_the_renegade]

Carryfast:

Dave the Renegade:
I am a Director/Trustee of a Disabled charity, and I agree with del949. Farage is right wing and would be even worse than Thatcher. I am one of the luckier Disabled people,in so far that my accident happened at work and I get a good industrial pension. I also still work as an external TM.

The sooner we get rid of this Tory government the better.They have cut benefits to genuine Disabled people who are already disadvantaged. People who were on the lower rate of the Disabled Living Allowance have had it taken off them, under the points system introduced by the Tory Government.
The Conservatives are for the rich and well off, and always have been.

Or in other words as I said a poor value for money system of income protection insurance that is applied on a if someone’s face fits basis.Even by your own obviously socialist definition.

Which is why I couldn’t claim incapacity benefit after having been put off work on health grounds because the definition and criterea for a claim makes it effectively worthless.While my own private policy covered me just for being healthy enough or not to do ‘my own job’ not some bs idea of ‘incapacity’ meaning blind and paralysed from the neck down as in Muckaway’s definition.That issue applying under a so called ‘Labour’ government just the same as Cons.

The organisation I’m involved with deal with all disabilities,physical, sensory etc. There are also a lot of parents that are struggling with a child with a severe disability, and can’t get any help since this uncaring lot of capitalists came into power. And don’t bring Muckaway into this Geoffrey to cover yourself. I have been a C6 Tetraplegic for 44 years and know far more about disability issues than you or Muckaway will ever know.
Why don’t you give up some of your free time and help a Disabled organisation in your area to fight for equality.

[muckaway]

Carryfast where have I mentioned blind and paralysed people? I mentioned those who claim for bad backs yet can move easily when out shopping (that isn’t disabled, that’s being a lazy ■■■■■■■■■ I’ve seen blind people making their way to work in London (working swipe card door entry systems etc), if they can work (when I think they shouldn’t have too) and people like Renegade can still pursue a career then why can’t people with “social issues”?
Just one sponger gets a dozen genuine people tarred with the same brush, so why not ridicule these people?
No different to an Oxford woman a couple of years ago that got a blue badge because her teenage son had ADHD or some other fashionable excuse for being a naughty little ■■■■ in public. Just makes a mockery of genuine cases.

[bazza123]

I’ll be voting UKIP. Nigel says what he thinks, unlike the others who are scared of causing “offence”.

In many ways I agree with his comments on the HIV thing. Why should UK taxpayers pay for foreign people to have treatment on the NHS? You can guarantee you wouldn’t get that on the Continent.

I don’t necessarily agree with his focus on immigration. I do agree on his stance on the EU. Merkel and Juncker are our real masters and that isn’t right.

We need politicians with balls, people who aren’t scared to send back foreign criminals to some ■■■■ hole for fear of breaching their human rights.

We need to be increasing our defence expenditure, I’m with Nigel on this.

I’m told the benefit scroungers are in a minority but I don’t believe that. I’ve claimed job seekers before and seen the doley layabouts smoking their weed outside the job centre before they go in in their chavtastic clothes, no intention of working.

My next door neighbour hasn’t worked for over six years and openly admits she doesn’t want to. Claims everything she can.

My nan’s neighbour hasn’t worked in over FORTY years due to some made up back problem, gets a new car every few years on the taxpayer.

MY partner’s friends daughter - two kids by different dads by 18, council flat, won’t/can’t work. Claims all sorts.

My other neighbour hasn’t worked in years, claims all sorts, even had enough to laminate floor the downstairs of his house last year.

I’ve lived on an estate where there were well known inbred families who haven’t worked for generations claiming a council house, no rent, no council tax.

The government spent £222 bn on benefits last year!!! Enough is enough.

theguardian.com/news/datablo … visualised

[del949]

OK Bazza are YOUyourself prepared to tell these AIDS sufferers, no chance go home?
Without knowing any of the circumstances?
Are YOU prepared to pay exztra taxes for increasing our defence budget?

I’ve claimed job seekers before and seen the doley layabouts smoking their weed outside the job centre before they go in in their chavtastic clothes, no intention of working

So, you too were a doley layabout/
You seem able to judge others without knowing the circumstances, so presumably we can make the same judgement about you?

My nan’s neighbour hasn’t worked in over FORTY years due to some made up back problem

and you know her back problems are made up…how?

MY partner’s friends daughter - two kids by different dads by 18, council flat, won’t/can’t work. Claims all sorts.

Is child care available to allow her to work? if not what do you suggest she does with kids whilst she works?

My other neighbour hasn’t worked in years, claims all sorts, even had enough to laminate floor the downstairs of his house last year

you don’t offer any evidence of a false claim. merely that he/she doesn’t work. For all we know they could be quadraplegic

The government spent £222 bn on benefits last year!!! Enough is enough

.
This is the biggy!
A large percentage of that 222 billion was spent on paying
a)child benfit
b) tax credits to low paid workers
Notice, benefits payable to most families who don’t earn good wages, even though they are working! Do you get child benfit? does that make you a scounger
Farage can make ridiculous claims simply because he knows he will never be called to deliver.

[carryfast]

Muckaway:
Carryfast where have I mentioned blind and paralysed people? I mentioned those who claim for bad backs yet can move easily when out shopping (that isn’t disabled, that’s being a lazy [zb]). I’ve seen blind people making their way to work in London (working swipe card door entry systems etc), if they can work (when I think they shouldn’t have too) and people like Renegade can still pursue a career then why can’t people with “social issues”?
Just one sponger gets a dozen genuine people tarred with the same brush, so why not ridicule these people?
No different to an Oxford woman a couple of years ago that got a blue badge because her teenage son had ADHD or some other fashionable excuse for being a naughty little [zb] in public. Just makes a mockery of genuine cases.

As I read it being able to see a computer screen a hit a few key pads means fit to work.Which is more or less the definition and criterea for being considered as fit to work in the case of state Incapacity Benefit.

While it might come as a surprise to you but your Conservative heroes actually go by the rules,which you define as scrounging,themselves.In which case do you really think that the average pilot,who loses their job on medical grounds,has to take a job as you describe.The answer is no because their private union advised policy covers them for medical retirement in the event of failing their pilots medical.Which,of course,isn’t the same thing as the Incapacity Benefit medical criterea which goes along the lines which you describe

Meanwhile as I said if anyone is a driver with your views and doesn’t like the idea of the Jobcentre rail roading them into an unsuited job for the rest of their working life,in the event of being put off the job on medical grounds,and haven’t got such a policy then be careful what they wish for.

In which case assuming anyone decides to follow the pilots’ lead why should they still have to contribute to to the bs worthless state system just for the privilege of being told that they can’t claim if/when they need to.

While ironically the socialist cause can also go along with my ideas in the case of anyone who they see as being more equal than others like train drivers for example.IE a decent wage which pays enough for them to cover themselves with a decent private income protection policy and not be reliant on the state social security system in the event of sickness and probably unemployment at least.

[carryfast]

del949:
OK Bazza are YOUyourself prepared to tell these AIDS sufferers, no chance go home?
Without knowing any of the circumstances?
Are YOU prepared to pay exztra taxes for increasing our defence budget?

I’ve claimed job seekers before and seen the doley layabouts smoking their weed outside the job centre before they go in in their chavtastic clothes, no intention of working

So, you too were a doley layabout/
You seem able to judge others without knowing the circumstances, so presumably we can make the same judgement about you?

My nan’s neighbour hasn’t worked in over FORTY years due to some made up back problem

and you know her back problems are made up…how?

MY partner’s friends daughter - two kids by different dads by 18, council flat, won’t/can’t work. Claims all sorts.

Is child care available to allow her to work? if not what do you suggest she does with kids whilst she works?

My other neighbour hasn’t worked in years, claims all sorts, even had enough to laminate floor the downstairs of his house last year

you don’t offer any evidence of a false claim. merely that he/she doesn’t work. For all we know they could be quadraplegic

The government spent £222 bn on benefits last year!!! Enough is enough

.
This is the biggy!
A large percentage of that 222 billion was spent on paying
a)child benfit
b) tax credits to low paid workers
Notice, benefits payable to most families who don’t earn good wages, even though they are working! Do you get child benfit? does that make you a scounger
Farage can make ridiculous claims simply because he knows he will never be called to deliver.

Which is all the more reason why we need to wind up the whole socialist system to stop the human nature hypocrisy of those who are dependent on it judging others in the same boat.

As for the immigration issue it is supposed to be a national health service.Not an international health service for foreigners paid for by us.

[dave_the_renegade]

Which is all the more reason why we need to wind up the whole socialist system to stop the human nature hypocrisy of those who are dependent on it judging others in the same boat.

As for the immigration issue it is supposed to be a national health service.Not an international health service for foreigners paid for by us.
[/quote]
Carryfast is there anything that you don’t know about. Every post regarding politics, engines, design. You always know best, and come out with a long winded answer.
You missed your vocation in life. You should be on the lecture circuit telling all the people throughout the world
‘’ where they went wrong ‘’

[muckaway]

Talking of “doley layabouts at the dole office” I can vouch for that. When I was out of work, I went in completely embarassed yet there were people there waiting to see advisors, using it like I’d meet mates in a pub. Laughing and joking, talking about tv etc, it was disgusting. They should’ve felt like I did, only Big Issue selling would be more demeaning.
Honestly, those people were either terminally useless or very clever in acting unemployable and it’s disgusting that they get free cash when genuinely disabled people and pensioners get next to nothing.
And briefly to AIDS; With some exceptions, it’s a disease of tarts and junkies so why should non Brits be treated here? Keep them away from our shores, just like Ebola.

[carryfast]

Dave the Renegade:
Which is all the more reason why we need to wind up the whole socialist system to stop the human nature hypocrisy of those who are dependent on it judging others in the same boat.

As for the immigration issue it is supposed to be a national health service.Not an international health service for foreigners paid for by us.

Carryfast is there anything that you don’t know about. Every post regarding politics, engines, design. You always know best, and come out with a long winded answer.
You missed your vocation in life. You should be on the lecture circuit telling all the people throughout the world
‘’ where they went wrong ‘’
[/quote]
Depending on point of view I’d say that’s better than the general make up of the Labour ranks and the historic hypocrisy which defines everything that Socialism stands for.Wether it be those like Callaghan and Blair or those dependent on state provided social provision judging others in the same boat.Let alone those taking advantage of state provided/funded housing handouts,like many of Thatcher’s new found ‘Labour’ allies,calling those who paid their own way in that regard ‘militants’ for striking for the wages needed to pay a deposit and mortgage.

[dave_the_renegade]

Carryfast:

Dave the Renegade:
Which is all the more reason why we need to wind up the whole socialist system to stop the human nature hypocrisy of those who are dependent on it judging others in the same boat.

As for the immigration issue it is supposed to be a national health service.Not an international health service for foreigners paid for by us.

Carryfast is there anything that you don’t know about. Every post regarding politics, engines, design. You always know best, and come out with a long winded answer.
You missed your vocation in life. You should be on the lecture circuit telling all the people throughout the world
‘’ where they went wrong ‘’

Depending on point of view I’d say that’s better than the general make up of the Labour ranks and the historic hypocrisy which defines everything that Socialism stands for.Wether it be those like Callaghan and Blair or those dependent on state provided social provision judging others in the same boat.Let alone those taking advantage of state provided/funded housing handouts,like many of Thatcher’s new found ‘Labour’ allies,calling those who paid their own way in that regard ‘militants’ for striking for the wages needed to pay a deposit and mortgage.
[/quote]
Another long winded post singing the same old song.

[carryfast]

Muckaway:
Talking of “doley layabouts at the dole office” I can vouch for that. When I was out of work, I went in completely embarassed yet there were people there waiting to see advisors, using it like I’d meet mates in a pub. Laughing and joking, talking about tv etc, it was disgusting. They should’ve felt like I did, only Big Issue selling would be more demeaning.
Honestly, those people were either terminally useless or very clever in acting unemployable and it’s disgusting that they get free cash when genuinely disabled people and pensioners get next to nothing.
And briefly to AIDS; With some exceptions, it’s a disease of tarts and junkies so why should non Brits be treated here? Keep them away from our shores, just like Ebola.

Why should anyone have to feel ‘embarrassed’ in the case of needing to claim on any type of income protection insurance.Wether it be private or state provided.So are you saying if/when that pilot or train driver has to claim against their private medical or unemployment income protection cover they would/should feel embarrassed about it. If not why the double standards just because it is state provided cover in that regard.

As I said the difference in the case of private cover is that the cover is better and claims are no one else’s business except between that of the claimant and the insurance provider.Unlike the state funded system which is all about the ‘provider’ in this case,taking advantage of your type of view,in order to turn ( what should be ) a state insurance scheme into what is just a taxation scam.Which uses the idea of shaming claimants in order to deter claims and/or cut the benefit provision of the so called ‘cover’ in question.

As for so called ‘dole layabouts’ like the so called Incapacity Benefit criterea do you actually have any idea of the criterea for claims.IE just like Incapacity the level of benefit,let alone the conditions of claiming,make the cover effectively worthless and no one with any sense would enter into such a policy by choice.In which case unlike your idea of judging claimants I just want the scam wound up and all of my contributions while working regards same re paid thanks.