Mike-C:
If in your scenarios above you have to remain at your workstation how can it be POA?
A driver can remain in the driver seat and record break or POA
The boss can tell the driver to remain in the driver seat and it can still be recorded as break or POA
For REST the driver must be allowed to do what they want
I never mentioned rest, break or sitting in a driver seat. You’ve just come out with a load of stuff what i never asked about and some how have quoted me in your reply.
So there’s no need to go google it . The question i posed still stands.
That link about POA says the driver is NOT REQUIRED to remain at work station but there is nothing to sat they cannot
Oh right. So did you need to look at that link to understand what POA is or are you guessing and/or finding out as you go along and attempt to answer ? And are you any closer to knowing the answer yet? BTW the answer is in my question.
ROG:
Mike are you saying that if the driver knows how long the wait will be and the boss says to wait in the cab then it cannot be POA?
I didn’t intend to nail it down like that but you did and yes its exactly what i’m saying. You’ve described it better than me. Thats exactly what i’m going the long winded way about saying.
I’ll tell you why i say that. The scenario you described is the exact description of work (or other work). A period of POA means the driver is available but not working, but is able to resume. If he’s told to wait and cannot leave his station it cannot possibly be POA. And i’ll tell you now if you go to any RDC you will not be able to leave (granted i’m using an RDC as one example),also if you’re in a queue you won’t be able to leave it without going to the back of it. If you have been told to remain at your workstation then yes, unequivocally its not a period of availability, its a period of work /other work or you can recuperate from your driving (break) but it is not by any chance a POA. Don’t tell me what everyone does, i already know that.
Winseer:
If you are made to leave your cab, and hand keys in, then you are either
(a) on break if you can eat,sleep, and leave the yard outright with total freedom to “dispose of your time as you wish”.
or you are
(b) on “other work”.
You can’t book “sitting in the cooler” as POA, since you are not free to dispose of time as you see fit, you’d be lucky to find a subsidised restaurant there available to external drivers 24/7, and no beds/big sofachairs to sleep on either.
A “break” is also a pre-determined amount of time during which you are not available to the firm at all. Typically, this would be 45 minutes, but could be as little as 30 mins, if you’ve already booked a 15 minute break earlier…
If you don’t know how long you are going to be sitting there, then by all means “stick it on POA”, but nothing under 15 minutes will register, and then there is a danger that it might wipe your 4.5hr slate if over 45 minutes worth, and make you think you can drive 4 hours, 45 mins POA, and drive another 4 hours all legally… Sure baz. I bet Vosa would beg to differ on that one!
POA is one thing, Break is another.
Then there are those who change their mode over when sitting on the derv pumps… Bad enough if it’s in the yard, but FFS it goes on at MSA’s as well!
If I am not allowed to sit in my cab, or use the subsidised restaurant, or leave the yard, then I always book time away from the vehicle as “other work” - especially “sitting in the cooler” at places like Didcot Tescos.
0
Note this guy is attempting to palm this waiting off as POA, by the act of reading a newspaper. He can’t though, because he’s got no eyes.
Therefore, sitting in a waiting room thus is “other work”, not break, not POA.
Winseer:
If you are made to leave your cab, and hand keys in, then you are either
(a) on break if you can eat,sleep, and leave the yard outright with total freedom to “dispose of your time as you wish”.
or you are
(b) on “other work”.
You can’t book “sitting in the cooler” as POA, since you are not free to dispose of time as you see fit, you’d be lucky to find a subsidised restaurant there available to external drivers 24/7, and no beds/big sofachairs to sleep on either.
A “break” is also a pre-determined amount of time during which you are not available to the firm at all. Typically, this would be 45 minutes, but could be as little as 30 mins, if you’ve already booked a 15 minute break earlier…
If you don’t know how long you are going to be sitting there, then by all means “stick it on POA”, but nothing under 15 minutes will register, and then there is a danger that it might wipe your 4.5hr slate if over 45 minutes worth, and make you think you can drive 4 hours, 45 mins POA, and drive another 4 hours all legally… Sure baz. I bet Vosa would beg to differ on that one!
POA is one thing, Break is another.
Then there are those who change their mode over when sitting on the derv pumps… Bad enough if it’s in the yard, but FFS it goes on at MSA’s as well!
If I am not allowed to sit in my cab, or use the subsidised restaurant, or leave the yard, then I always book time away from the vehicle as “other work” - especially “sitting in the cooler” at places like Didcot Tescos.
0
Note this guy is attempting to palm this waiting off as POA, by the act of reading a newspaper. He can’t though, because he’s got no eyes.
Therefore, sitting in a waiting room thus is “other work”, not break, not POA.
The next time they mention POA ask them why you are being persecuted for working, because that is the reason you do not use it and ask for a written explanation because the drivers have done the course, has the manger took it though.
And why would a driver not get paid for POA you are actually available for work, we get paid.
Winseer:
If you are made to leave your cab, and hand keys in, then you are either
(a) on break if you can eat,sleep, and leave the yard outright with total freedom to “dispose of your time as you wish”.
or you are
(b) on “other work”.
You can’t book “sitting in the cooler” as POA, since you are not free to dispose of time as you see fit, you’d be lucky to find a subsidised restaurant there available to external drivers 24/7, and no beds/big sofachairs to sleep on either.
A “break” is also a pre-determined amount of time during which you are not available to the firm at all. Typically, this would be 45 minutes, but could be as little as 30 mins, if you’ve already booked a 15 minute break earlier…
If you don’t know how long you are going to be sitting there, then by all means “stick it on POA”, but nothing under 15 minutes will register, and then there is a danger that it might wipe your 4.5hr slate if over 45 minutes worth, and make you think you can drive 4 hours, 45 mins POA, and drive another 4 hours all legally… Sure baz. I bet Vosa would beg to differ on that one!
POA is one thing, Break is another.
Then there are those who change their mode over when sitting on the derv pumps… Bad enough if it’s in the yard, but FFS it goes on at MSA’s as well!
If I am not allowed to sit in my cab, or use the subsidised restaurant, or leave the yard, then I always book time away from the vehicle as “other work” - especially “sitting in the cooler” at places like Didcot Tescos.
Note this guy is attempting to palm this waiting off as POA, by the act of reading a newspaper. He can’t though, because he’s got no eyes.
Therefore, sitting in a waiting room thus is “other work”, not break, not POA.
ROG:
Mike are you saying that if the driver knows how long the wait will be and the boss says to wait in the cab then it cannot be POA?
I didn’t intend to nail it down like that but you did and yes its exactly what i’m saying. You’ve described it better than me. Thats exactly what i’m going the long winded way about saying.
I’ll tell you why i say that. The scenario you described is the exact description of work (or other work). A period of POA means the driver is available but not working, but is able to resume. If he’s told to wait and cannot leave his station it cannot possibly be POA.
Please copy and paste the actual regulation which states that and I do not mean the bit that says the driver is not required to remain at their work station because that does not say they must not remain there
I can’t say I’ve seen the written law that defines things like “Unlawful killing” or “breach of the peace” clearly defined in publicly available terms either. Perhaps this is because I didn’t read law, or perhaps it’s because I’ve been happy to accept Society telling me things all along that we take for granted AS laws.
It is highly likely that law enforcement won’t be interested in tacho infringements involving POA UNLESS and UNTIL that driver has an accident, or crops up on one of their spot check crackdowns…
Let’s all be realistic here. I choose not to ■■■■ about with my tachos, and exhibit a reasonable amount of discipline when driving - as I see it as “expected of me” when operating as a professional. Those who defer all the time are just looking for someone else to take the blame when things go wrong in my opinion.
ROG:
Mike are you saying that if the driver knows how long the wait will be and the boss says to wait in the cab then it cannot be POA?
I didn’t intend to nail it down like that but you did and yes its exactly what i’m saying. You’ve described it better than me. Thats exactly what i’m going the long winded way about saying.
I’ll tell you why i say that. The scenario you described is the exact description of work (or other work). A period of POA means the driver is available but not working, but is able to resume. If he’s told to wait and cannot leave his station it cannot possibly be POA.
Please copy and paste the actual regulation which states that and I do not mean the bit that says the driver is not required to remain at their work station because that does not say they must not remain there
“working time” shall mean: 1. in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning to the end of work, during which the mobile worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the employer and exercising his functions or activities, that is to say: - the time devoted to all road transport activities. These activities are, in particular, the following: (i) driving; (ii) loading and unloading; (iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking from the vehicle; (iv) cleaning and technical maintenance; (v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil the legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific transport operation under way, including monitoring of loading and unloading, administrative formalities with police, customs, immigration officers etc., - the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks associated with being on duty, in particular during periods awaiting loading or unloading where their foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is to say either before departure or just before the actual start of the period in question, or under the general conditions negotiated between the social partners and/or under the terms of the legislation of the Member States;
…Thus, if you are “at work” starting a shift, and finishing a shift 15 hours later, then you’ve been at work the entire time.
POA might mitigate your DRIVING hours of work time down to less than the legal averages required, BUT the opportunity to drive whilst half asleep is still impressed upon those who find themselves contracted to work excessive hourly amounts per week on a “salary”.
Surely I can’t be the only one out here who thinks that a driver’s salaried week should be 40 hours including breaks, with overtime only allowable upto a maximum 60 hours, with compensating weeks of less hours to make up the overall average of 48 over a reference period.
I’ll be looking to sign up with firms in a few years that don’t expect their drivers to run excessive hours each week. Yup, that pretty much means “none at present”, but at least no one is pretending here. I like a basic hours amount around the 40 mark too, and I like the continuous opportunity to get regular overtime in to the maximum extent that reasonable average hours involves. 55 hours basic for a salary doesn’t cut it, let alone 84+ hours, so I’ll carry on with agency until the system realises that excessive hours=more death on the roads due to fatigue, and a sensible system is brought back again, staying out of full time for good if need be. No compromise.
I note a sign up at Snodland saying that there have been 4 recent collisions between “Wincanton drivers and cyclists, of which one was sadly a fatality”.
No mention has been made of “who, where, and how many hours the bod driving had been on shift” that week… I’ll leave you to draw your own conclusions from an outfit that plans you for 15 hours each shift…
ROG:
Mike are you saying that if the driver knows how long the wait will be and the boss says to wait in the cab then it cannot be POA?
I didn’t intend to nail it down like that but you did and yes its exactly what i’m saying. You’ve described it better than me. Thats exactly what i’m going the long winded way about saying.
I’ll tell you why i say that. The scenario you described is the exact description of work (or other work). A period of POA means the driver is available but not working, but is able to resume. If he’s told to wait and cannot leave his station it cannot possibly be POA.
Please copy and paste the actual regulation which states that and I do not mean the bit that says the driver is not required to remain at their work station because that does not say they must not remain there
“working time” shall mean: 1. in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning to the end of work, during which the mobile worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the employer and exercising his functions or activities, that is to say: - the time devoted to all road transport activities. These activities are, in particular, the following: (i) driving; (ii) loading and unloading; (iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking from the vehicle; (iv) cleaning and technical maintenance; (v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil the legal or regulatory obligations directly linked to the specific transport operation under way, including monitoring of loading and unloading, administrative formalities with police, customs, immigration officers etc., - the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work, with certain tasks associated with being on duty, in particular during periods awaiting loading or unloading where their foreseeable duration is not known in advance, that is to say either before departure or just before the actual start of the period in question, or under the general conditions negotiated between the social partners and/or under the terms of the legislation of the Member States;
As the EU regs 561/2006 say differently then please explain which of the two take preference?
Freely disposing of time is only in the rest requirements in EU regs 561/2006
ROG:
As the EU regs 561/2006 say differently then please explain which of the two take preference?
Freely disposing of time is only in the rest requirements in EU regs 561/2006
ROG i’m not seeing they say differently. 561/2006 (Article 6 (5) says: A driver shall record as other work any time spent as described in Article 4(e)
…
Article 4(e) says…
‘other work’ means all activities which are defined as working time in Article 3(a) of Directive 2002/15/EC except ‘driving’
…
Its pretty plain what is required . I would say based on the OP’s information there is no reason why break could not be used to reduce actual working time when waiting about. Its perfectly reasonable to recuperate from driving whilst parked up. Of course this would leave his employer typing a letter which says…“make sure you get plenty of breaks in”, which could lead to allsorts of misinterpretation by the drivers !
But in anycase i’d say its an abuse to encourage drivers to ‘get more POA in’. And certainley an incorrect way to record your duty time when waiting about to get tipped or loaded (assuming you have to remain at your workstation). And if i was him i’d make sure i kept that memo for future reference, that could be proof he’s being made to work excessive hours. Could come in handy at a later date
the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work,
Thats from the RTD but we all know that 561/2006 definitions are different in regards to the freely disposing of the drivers time
By the sound of it, from what your saying your idiot in charge is basically telling you to unload into the shops on poa to try and keep your average around 48 hours. This is something I would imagine vosa will not like and I would say is more than slightly illegal as you are doing other work,not poa. Ask him/her/it for a copy of the appropriate legislation he is using because if something goes wrong the first words will be I never told them to do that.
ROG: the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work,
Thats from the RTD but we all know that 561/2006 definitions are different in regards to the freely disposing of the drivers time
I’m unsure at what you’re getting at as you’re asking more questions than giving answers. What you have typed above is gobbeldy ■■■■. It makes no sense.
561/2006 says a daily rest period is when a driver can freely dispose of his time. It does not say if a driver can freely dispose of his time then its a daily rest period ? It also suggests no where that the term “freely dispose of time” cannot be used anywhere else.
ROG:
So which reg takes preference?
This is a nonsense question. Its not a case of preference at all. 561/2006 sets out the limits, it referes the reader to Directive 2002/15/EC for certain descriptions and the provisions of it from page one. The RT WTD sets out certain limits and according to the explanatory note attatched to The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 it 'implements the provisions of 2002/15 too. They complement each other and reference each other. I’ve not seen any conflict in what they say. They’re designed to work together.
ROG: the times during which he cannot dispose freely of his time and is required to be at his workstation, ready to take up normal work,
Thats from the RTD but we all know that 561/2006 definitions are different in regards to the freely disposing of the drivers time
I’m unsure at what you’re getting at as you’re asking more questions than giving answers. What you have typed above is gobbeldy ■■■■. It makes no sense.
561/2006 says a daily rest period is when a driver can freely dispose of his time. It does not say if a driver can freely dispose of his time then its a daily rest period ? It also suggests no where that the term “freely dispose of time” cannot be used anywhere else.
ROG:
So which reg takes preference?
This is a nonsense question. Its not a case of preference at all. 561/2006 sets out the limits, it referes the reader to Directive 2002/15/EC for certain descriptions and the provisions of it from page one. The RT WTD sets out certain limits and according to the explanatory note attatched to The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005 it 'implements the provisions of 2002/15 too. They complement each other and reference each other. I’ve not seen any conflict in what they say. They’re designed to work together.
And back to the OP …
If your working ie loading unloading doing paperwork or anything else then you cant be on POA … if your sat on your arse and able to drink tea P eat read a book (of your own choice in my case Beano) and YOU KNOW ABOUT THE DELAY its POA …
if you can walk away from your work ( ie sod off into town go to bed play with the sheep if you so wish) for a period of 3 hrs or more you can bang it on REST
nick2008:
And back to the OP …
If your working ie loading unloading doing paperwork or anything else then you cant be on POA … if your sat on your arse and able to drink tea P eat read a book (of your own choice in my case Beano) and YOU KNOW ABOUT THE DELAY its POA …
if you can walk away from your work ( ie sod off into town go to bed play with the sheep if you so wish) for a period of 3 hrs or more you can bang it on REST
From what i’ve read by the OP he fully understands POA, and he is happy to book it if he can get it.
This may give some further clue as to the OP’s concerns, one which you’ve answered… viewtopic.php?f=7&t=105087 viewtopic.php?f=7&t=105088
I like that one though, "if you know about the delay its POA ", it sort of rhymes !! Even though its a load of rubbish !!
Anyway what do ya reckon, them filling in POA on his time sheet for him and telling him to book more, where’s it all going to lead to? I find it quite funny, POA is not working and being available to go to work and they’re telling him to do more of it Personally i’d ask the manager to book me on duty for 2 hours before i’m due and i’ll book that as POA, times that by five days and there’s 10 hours POA booked in straight away !!!
