Dieseldog66:
What’s POA?
Period of Availability. Basically when you’re parked up waiting for something work related and not on a break. In all honesty it sounds like a load of backside to me, if I’m waiting about, i’ll be having a brew and reading, therefore that’s a break.
Which is what you can do on either a break or a POA, have a brew, read a book, play with the dog, yourself or your passenger.
If anyone quotes EU Law to you, ask them for the number of the document. It will be something like EC 123/2016
dozy:
waynedl:
The only POA I ever record is when I get into work and there’s no truck or no run, when I eventually get in a truck I’ll record POA from when I started to the point of my card going in.After that, anything that qualifies for POA also qualifies for break
But the work which is causing the issue ,the trucks are ready and waiting for you,you may get a gap in between runs but a hour ish most times,to do what there after which is bring 70/80 hrs down to a average of 48 hrs you need to be booking 4/5 hrs of poa per day,maybe possible on some work ,boxes,fridges etc,but shop deliveries
The only time I use POA is it of get to a shop and theres a wagon already being tipped, or if I’m in the transport office and there’s no runs off yet.
I know some people use it at any given opportunity but if I were to do that it would just confuse me regarding breaks and tacho readings.
Dieseldog66:
What’s POA?
Price on Application/Asking
it really boils my ■■■■ when you see adverts for trucks where it has the price as POA 
shuttlespanker:
Dieseldog66:
What’s POA?Price on Application/Asking
it really boils my ■■■■ when you see adverts for trucks where it has the price as POA
Dunno why … you know scanias are cheap 
dozy:
ROG:
If not actually working or driving then break can be usedThe manager needs to clarify where he is getting his info
He quotes eu law and legislation so I’m guessing that’s where he’s qetting his info from
in that case, your manager/originator of the memo is talking ■■■■■■■■, and as such, should be slapped with the largest wettest fish that you can find!!!
if he insists on it being EU Law, ask him to show you the relevant EU Law written in a book or official document
what you will more likely find is, it is actually a company policy, and NOT an EU Law 
Wheel Nut:
Which is what you can do on either a break or a POA, have a brew, read a book, play with the dog, yourself or your passenger.If anyone quotes EU Law to you, ask them for the number of the document. It will be something like EC 123/2016
+1.
Easiest way of shutting someone up is to ask for it in writing.
Love the bit about “you should be fully aware after doing DCPC course” 
. That is what we are now going to get all the time, from bosses, VOSA, the law, and every other ■■■■■■■ that you can think of every time something goes wrong . Our first line of defence ie “Sorry mate didn’t realise that” has now been shut down, and not by accident 
Dav1d:
Easiest way of shutting someone up is to ask for it in writing.
+1 on that.
Last time I looked through the directive, there was no mention of anything called “POA”.
I understood, that it was something cooked up over here, by DoT/DTA and the bosses org’s (RHA/FTA), as they panicked before it was all brought in, that it was gonna cost them more dollar and drivers to complete the same amount of work (apparently, it was the original intention of the directive for the average 48 hours to be from clock on, till clock off).
Plus also as I understand it (not seen anything official with it laid out), is that just waiting to get in/tip/etc isn’t POA. POA is the amount of time where you are doing nothing but “could” be available to do something if it was there to be done i.e. “How long have I got to wait before getting tipped please mate ?” “It’ll be about half an hour Drives” - which then translates into a potential of a half hour, possibly more, or POA.
Sure I fully understand that the “Feds” couldn’t prove it one way or another, but there must be an official description of POA laid down somewhere, otherwise they can’t prosecute for getting it wrong…
robroy:
Love the bit about “you should be fully aware after doing DCPC course”
All I have done is 4 first aid courses 
I would be better off working in a hostpital
johnthefatbloke:
Dav1d:
Easiest way of shutting someone up is to ask for it in writing.+1 on that.
Last time I looked through the directive, there was no mention of anything called “POA”.
I understood, that it was something cooked up over here, by DoT/DTA and the bosses org’s (RHA/FTA), as they panicked before it was all brought in, that it was gonna cost them more dollar and drivers to complete the same amount of work (apparently, it was the original intention of the directive for the average 48 hours to be from clock on, till clock off).
Plus also as I understand it (not seen anything official with it laid out), is that just waiting to get in/tip/etc isn’t POA. POA is the amount of time where you are doing nothing but “could” be available to do something if it was there to be done i.e. “How long have I got to wait before getting tipped please mate ?” “It’ll be about half an hour Drives” - which then translates into a potential of a half hour, possibly more, or POA.
Sure I fully understand that the “Feds” couldn’t prove it one way or another, but there must be an official description of POA laid down somewhere, otherwise they can’t prosecute for getting it wrong…
No one has been prosecuted under the RTD / WTD so far. If you are conforming to EC 561/2006 then there will be no major catastrophes.
Well thanks for all the info( not sure slapping him round face with a wet fish is a good idea to me 
),I guess it’s now a time to sit back and see what happens when he manages our hours( if you can’t manage your hours I will).
This week ended in dismall failure,last shift I was planned to do x,y,z but rang them and said if I did job I wa down for I’d go over max 60 hrs work in a week ,originally I was greeted with this is what happens when you won’t book poa ,after checking my hours they told me to leave y,z and head straight back to yard,still did 58 hrs work.
I’ve always done the hours,70/80 most weeks,but I just can see how you can do those hours on this type of work and stay within the law,hopefully now he’s managing our hours he will see that it’s the type of work not the awkward driver causing the problem.
Thanks again ,I’ll post again when I’m off on my week/two unpaid
If you work over an AVERAGE of 48 hours based on whatever reference period is being used by your yard, then you do need to book POA lest you rubbish your 26, 17, or whatever week average.
I have often heard it said that “POA is a management tool” - Well, it is and it isn’t. You cannot set out INTENDING to be on POA at a certain time. That’s other work. UNEXPECTED scenarios that keep you stationary with the engine off, but available to move again at a moment’s notice are to be booked as POA.
Eg. M25 accident park-ups, being ■■■■■■ around at RDCs before you’ve even got on a bay (but not whilst on the bay which must be booked as “other work” since you are not in control of your movements during the time the keys are handed in!)
The “management tool” is used correctly by firms such as Royal Mail who won’t let you spend more than 48 hours on duty average per week. If you are agency therefore, you get to pick up a LOT more hours than full timers do - providing you’ve got the “spare hours” on your digicard to enable their management policy to permit you to do such hours. Indeed, picking up a 12 hour shift might well happen because no full timer has enough hours left to do it!
Their 36.25 hour basic week works very nicely to throw 12 hour shifts my way for that very reason!
RM say they “don’t recognise POA” but since waiting time is fully paid for, and you’ll not get a week of over 48 hours as a full timer there, I’d say the pay is actually quite good based on those limited hours. As an agency going in there, I’ll book POA (on the digi at appropriate moments) regardless, because I might find myself cramming in an extra shift at the end of the week, if I’ve been given less hours than what my card will stand. 
Notice I say “at the end of the week”, because if I did another shift in front of a week at RM, they wouldn’t give me the damned hours in the first place, because it would ‘put me over’ as far as they are concerned. 
I may have a very low monthly aggregate, but RM will resist anyone even on a “week one” basis going over 48 hours, but once you’ve done the week, your card has been downloaded, and you’re doing a 15 hour shift that coming weekend? - That’s no one’s business, “post card download” is it were. Thus, I might do 20 hours one week total, 40 hours the following week, then cram a 48 hour week at RM, rounded off with a 15 hour at a supermarket (63 hour week measured Monday-Sunday), but the monthly/reference period average is 41 hours, and the POA will be used only to get the 63 hour week back down below 60 for those firms that start their week on a Monday as opposed to the agency week that starts 00:01 on sunday morning, thus as far as the law is concerned, I’ve actually done hours of 20+40+48+15 over a FOURTH week which is perfectly legit as long as I don’t cram another week in after that last sunday!
Thus, POA is YOUR management policy to get around the differing rules held by different yards, so you can work the hours you want, and not be fobbed off about what’s legal and what is not.
Being on duty 84 hours a week, week in, week out is what I consider to be illegal, and I stand by that judgement. 
If you have a job where you never spend more than 48 hours on duty, week in, week out, then you’ll NEVER Need to use POA - thus there will never be any to book any in the first place.
If, on the other hand, you have a job contracted 48.15-168.00 hours per week, then you’ll be extensively using POA to a degree that amounts to abuse of the system - because you’re trying to hide in cahoots with your employer those hours that would otherwise take you over the 48 hours on duty average across a reference period. This directly leads to insufficient sleep periods, irregular meals, and being addicted to being at work to such an extent that lives are always going to be at risk - yours and others alike. If you do manage get a full nights sleep whilst on POA at work - then bully for you. Most drivers don’t, and the sensible laws should be about what apply to most drivers, not just the lucky few with easy going employers.
The driver is responsible for their hours , losing their licence,being heavily fined, or even imprisoned if found to be falling foul of the law.
Eg. kill a cyclist, and you’ve been on duty 84 hours that week, with 40 hours of it mitigated away as POA - Sorry bud, you’re still going to jail - make no mistake!
You cannot set out INTENDING to be on POA at a certain time. That’s other work. UNEXPECTED scenarios that keep you stationary with the engine off, but available to move again at a moment’s notice are to be booked as POA.
Surely that is wrong.
If you leave yor depot to arrive at your delivery point at 11.00, knowing that you will not get tipped until 11.30 , you are entitled to book that 30 mins as POA.
Similarily, if you arrive at 11.30 and the fork lift driver tells you you that he won’t tip you for another hour, then that hour can be booked as POA.
If, however, he simply says "we will tip you when we get around to it " then that is not POA as you have no idea how long this will be
I understood that POA applicable to times when you know/or expect that you will be sat waiting for a pre-determined mength of time.
In the same way, sitting in the traffic on the M25 is not POA as you have no idea how long you will be sat there.
del949:
You cannot set out INTENDING to be on POA at a certain time. That’s other work. UNEXPECTED scenarios that keep you stationary with the engine off, but available to move again at a moment’s notice are to be booked as POA.
Surely that is wrong.
If you leave yor depot to arrive at your delivery point at 11.00, knowing that you will not get tipped until 11.30 , you are entitled to book that 30 mins as POA.
Similarily, if you arrive at 11.30 and the fork lift driver tells you you that he won’t tip you for another hour, then that hour can be booked as POA.
If, however, he simply says "we will tip you when we get around to it " then that is not POA as you have no idea how long this will be
I understood that POA applicable to times when you know/or expect that you will be sat waiting for a pre-determined mength of time.
In the same way, sitting in the traffic on the M25 is not POA as you have no idea how long you will be sat there.
I think both of you have missed the point. If in your scenarios above you have to remain at your workstation how can it be POA?
Mike-C:
If in your scenarios above you have to remain at your workstation how can it be POA?
A driver can remain in the driver seat and record break or POA
The boss can tell the driver to remain in the driver seat and it can still be recorded as break or POA
For REST the driver must be allowed to do what they want
ROG:
Mike-C:
If in your scenarios above you have to remain at your workstation how can it be POA?A driver can remain in the driver seat and record break or POA
The boss can tell the driver to remain in the driver seat and it can still be recorded as break or POA
For REST the driver must be allowed to do what they want
I never mentioned rest, break or sitting in a driver seat. You’ve just come out with a load of stuff what i never asked about and some how have quoted me in your reply.
Wheelnut has just posted what the rules say POA is here…
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=100696&p=1573117#p1573117
So there’s no need to go google it . The question i posed still stands.
If you are made to leave your cab, and hand keys in, then you are either
(a) on break if you can eat,sleep, and leave the yard outright with total freedom to “dispose of your time as you wish”.
or you are
(b) on “other work”.
You can’t book “sitting in the cooler” as POA, since you are not free to dispose of time as you see fit, you’d be lucky to find a subsidised restaurant there available to external drivers 24/7, and no beds/big sofachairs to sleep on either.
A “break” is also a pre-determined amount of time during which you are not available to the firm at all. Typically, this would be 45 minutes, but could be as little as 30 mins, if you’ve already booked a 15 minute break earlier…
If you don’t know how long you are going to be sitting there, then by all means “stick it on POA”, but nothing under 15 minutes will register, and then there is a danger that it might wipe your 4.5hr slate if over 45 minutes worth, and make you think you can drive 4 hours, 45 mins POA, and drive another 4 hours all legally… Sure baz. I bet Vosa would beg to differ on that one!
POA is one thing, Break is another.
Then there are those who change their mode over when sitting on the derv pumps… Bad enough if it’s in the yard, but FFS it goes on at MSA’s as well!
If I am not allowed to sit in my cab, or use the subsidised restaurant, or leave the yard, then I always book time away from the vehicle as “other work” - especially “sitting in the cooler” at places like Didcot Tescos. 
Note this guy is attempting to palm this waiting off as POA, by the act of reading a newspaper. He can’t though, because he’s got no eyes.
Therefore, sitting in a waiting room thus is “other work”, not break, not POA.
Mike-C:
ROG:
Mike-C:
If in your scenarios above you have to remain at your workstation how can it be POA?A driver can remain in the driver seat and record break or POA
The boss can tell the driver to remain in the driver seat and it can still be recorded as break or POA
For REST the driver must be allowed to do what they want
I never mentioned rest, break or sitting in a driver seat. You’ve just come out with a load of stuff what i never asked about and some how have quoted me in your reply.
Wheelnut has just posted what the rules say POA is here…
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=100696&p=1573117#p1573117So there’s no need to go google it . The question i posed still stands.
That link about POA says the driver is NOT REQUIRED to remain at work station but there is nothing to sat they cannot
Winseer i agree with most you said. Here’s where folks are going wrong and its this in a nutshell…
Winseer:
POA is one thing, Break is another.
This is bang on.
Its often been said here on this forum (and its true) if it qualifies for POA then it also qualifies for break. There’s no doubt about that its a fact. What is not true is the other way round .
There’s guys here who think waiting in a queue when they know its going to be about half hour before they’re tipped think its ok to put it on POA. Its probably not OK. Here’s why…you won’t be able to leave your workstation, you’re activley waiting to get unloaded and you’re under the instruction of your employer. If you think its ok then tell them to ring you when they want you to resume work or give you a time to resume work and until then you will unavailable.
Also the definition of work seems to go out the window when POA is mentioned and i’ve no idea why . It specifically says waiting to be unloaded etc and under the general control of the employer.
The memo from the OP’s employer is a complete joke in several ways.