There seems to be a lot of concern about “Tyranny” here, and “worries about what happened in the past” rather than now and in the future.
People should quit worrying about what “might” happen - and concentrate in what IS happening.
The secret of all politician’s power - is that the ones that tell the truth don’t get believed, the ones who lie - attempt to make their shafting of you as “stealthily” as possible, and the worst ones of all - won’t back down when their public asks them to stop.
If we don’t face up to the REAL tyrants of the here and now - rather than from last century - then we’re doomed to repeat the mistake of “Ignoring them” as was the case in history over and over again.
NATO and the EU are the major evils of today. America, being so inward looking - isn’t anywhere near as dangerous as the former two - who seek expansion into Putin’s Russia - whilst moaning about Russia “expanding” back into what was once their own land anyways.
I worry about the political football of Turkey - more than about Syria, which is where we mugs are all directed to look of course…
Leaving the EU will weaken both them AND NATO. It’s unlikely under a Conservative government - with or without a referendum.
Corbyn stands little or no chance of being elected, because he himself has yet to grasp the nettle over what the public actually WANT for their new Foreign Policy.
Give ya a clue… It ain’t nuclear disarmament, cutting HM armed forces, or cutting HM come to that.
Every time someone attacks one or more of those three things in this country - we end up weaker at the end of it - “win or lose”.
I have no special love of Royalism - but Republicanism will just clear the pathway for a Tyrant to rise to power in this country.
CHAINSAW:
Surely Honda is a Japanese company■■? We might not have a British car industry anymore but from what I understand the British car factories (Honda, Nissan, jAGUAR) are all foreign owned - none European - yet are world class at what they are doing??
It isn’t as simple as that.Being foreign owned they have no allegiance or ties here whatsoever.In which case the EU threatens them with trade sanctions and they obviously take the side of the EU.When at least from Jaguar’s point of view they’d have more to gain in a protected UK market environment which takes out the German competition here.With the win win situation that they’ll have to find a UK transmission supplier or make their own in house ones again so more jobs and training opportunities for Brit workers not German ones.Assuming that Tata don’t like it then that leaves the option of saying thanks for the investment now do one just like the Arabs did with the UK oil industry.
A long long time ago I was an apprentice fitter and I remember the college lecturer giving a lecture on the motor industry and it’s economic importance to a country, i.e. jobs, supplier jobs, local businesses benefiting etc etc.
His point was that most major first world countries had a viable and highly prized motor industry, and then Tony Blair let the last of ours go…
My point is we have all this foreign investment in our motor industry here with acclaimed world class workforce, so if we can do it for them why can’t we do it ourselves??
Look at the affects a major steel plant closing in Redcar is going to have on that community.
We seem to be able to fund third world countries and bail out banks but are incapable of running our own industry in this country, leave the EU and we might just be forced to become GREAT Britain again…
Blair was just another Conservative leaning free marketeer like Thatcher.While if we wanted/want to save our domestic industries then it’s obvious that we need a protectionist anti free markets environment to do it.That will take an understanding among the electorate and the Labour Party of the difference between Nationalism v Socialism.Unfortunately so called Labour being lumbered with veering between Socialism and free maket race to the bottom so called ‘Capitalism’.Of which Shore would have been the only Labour leader to get the country on the right track in that regard.IE Nationalist Labour.Which by definition means Brit jobs for Brit workers in an environment in which we wipe out the trade deficit by wiping out imports.Thereby getting our own people back to work.
Winseer:
There seems to be a lot of concern about “Tyranny” here, and “worries about what happened in the past” rather than now and in the future.
People should quit worrying about what “might” happen - and concentrate in what IS happening.
The secret of all politician’s power - is that the ones that tell the truth don’t get believed, the ones who lie - attempt to make their shafting of you as “stealthily” as possible, and the worst ones of all - won’t back down when their public asks them to stop.
0
If we don’t face up to the REAL tyrants of the here and now - rather than from last century - then we’re doomed to repeat the mistake of “Ignoring them” as was the case in history over and over again.
NATO and the EU are the major evils of today. America, being so inward looking - isn’t anywhere near as dangerous as the former two - who seek expansion into Putin’s Russia - whilst moaning about Russia “expanding” back into what was once their own land anyways.
I worry about the political football of Turkey - more than about Syria, which is where we mugs are all directed to look of course…
Leaving the EU will weaken both them AND NATO. It’s unlikely under a Conservative government - with or without a referendum.
Corbyn stands little or no chance of being elected, because he himself has yet to grasp the nettle over what the public actually WANT for their new Foreign Policy.
Give ya a clue… It ain’t nuclear disarmament, cutting HM armed forces, or cutting HM come to that.
Every time someone attacks one or more of those three things in this country - we end up weaker at the end of it - “win or lose”.
I have no special love of Royalism - but Republicanism will just clear the pathway for a Tyrant to rise to power in this country.
Ironically NATO is trying to push up to Russia’s borders because of the shift in US defence strategy regards Russia from MAD to ‘containment’.While Merkel seems to be doing the typical East German trick of acting as a double agent in that regard.IE NATO threatens Russia by East Euro proxy so Russia threatens us by Arab/Asian proxy.With Merkel ( and Serbia etc ) helping the latter.As for Turkey make no mistake they are on the side of the latter while pretending to be on the side of NATO.None of which would make the slightest difference wether we go back to EFTA or stay with the EUSSR.
Having said that there is also the possibility that Russia is actually on our side regards the Arab/Asian Islamic threat.Which makes the EU’s and NATO’s position even more baffling.
back to the subject I would vote out, for several of the reasons stated.
regarding immigration Dolph, I have no issue with people wanting to make a better life and bringing skills into the country, I don’t see how car washers etc. can be classed as this. I even saw a woman from Romania selling the big issue last week - how bad does your life have to be that you travel thousands of miles to sell a magazine in a foreign country.
It’s bad enough to be facing the prospect of another World War at pretty much ANY point. The prospect of a multi-factioned war with no meaningful alliances though… THAT’S even worse.
Western forces should concentrate on “assisting” Turkey in the removal of ISIS - instead of them doing nothing, hoping that ISIS forces will remove the Kurds for them.
Instead, because of their reluctance to bring pressure upon Turkey - the Kurds get squeezed, and the West refuses to directly help them out - despite maintaining that they “support” the kurds.
In Syria meanwhile - there was an opportunity missed to attack ISIS without bothering to get permission. Now Russia have started their air campaign- it’s too late to take that approach now.
Turkey is only interested in posturing, not losing any territory, and getting accepted into the EU proper.
It’s too easy for the EU to leave Turkey as a buffer zone however, and of course that’s what Turkey now is. Easy for migrants to reach - but no one wants to stay there.
Not good enough. Turkey should be told by the EU and NATO to erradicate ISIS, give the Kurds what’s left after, and only accept migrants into Turkey that don’t want to move on from there.
Kids being washed up on beaches are dying trying to LEAVE Turkey rather than enter it after all…
I don’t think the Kurds with their own new nation - would object to then becoming the NEW buffer zone for further folks leaving places like Syria. They ARE quite happy to fight ISIS tooth and nail to win the land they currently occupy in the first place. Turkey’s refusal to act “because it’s in the kurds favour, rather than theirs” - weakens their position considerbly should the Kurds end up victorious by their paramilitary efforts in the region.
war1974:
regarding immigration Dolph, I have no issue with people wanting to make a better life and bringing skills into the country, I don’t see how car washers etc. can be classed as this. I even saw a woman from Romania selling the big issue last week - how bad does your life have to be that you travel thousands of miles to sell a magazine in a foreign country.
This country isn’t exactly known for its lack of skills.Our immigration policy has always been about rigging the labour market in favour of over supply to keep wage levels down.While even if it was about importing so called ‘skills’ how does that help those countries which then lose their own so called ‘skilled’ work force.
As for the East Euro big issue seller it probably goes along the idea that working in whatever type of ‘job’ qualifies them for UK in work to up benefits.Which are needed to cover living costs in a low wage over supplied labour market.
back to the subject I would vote out, for several of the reasons stated.
regarding immigration Dolph, I have no issue with people wanting to make a better life and bringing skills into the country, I don’t see how car washers etc. can be classed as this. I even saw a woman from Romania selling the big issue last week - how bad does your life have to be that you travel thousands of miles to sell a magazine in a foreign country.
You are correct to a certain point. Skilled people emigrating from BG and RO leave massive hole into the system, I wish we have the living standards of UK and everyone stays home, but we don’t.
Your live does not have to be bad to go to another country(UK) to sell magazine, but because of the income difference, the UK income is huge in the eyes of EE people. And the thousands of miles you describe is actually 2,5hrs. flight from Bucharest.
There always will be migration in a union where you can legally earn 10 time you monthly salary with just a 2-3 hour flight. Prices of property and services here are cheap, does UK middle class able to buying houses, apartments and vacation homes in BG. Ex pats own words, they cant never afford this homes in UK on a teacher pension.
war1974:
regarding immigration Dolph, I have no issue with people wanting to make a better life and bringing skills into the country, I don’t see how car washers etc. can be classed as this. I even saw a woman from Romania selling the big issue last week - how bad does your life have to be that you travel thousands of miles to sell a magazine in a foreign country.
This country isn’t exactly known for its lack of skills.Our immigration policy has always been about rigging the labour market in favour of over supply to keep wage levels down.While even if it was about importing so called ‘skills’ how does that help those countries which then lose their own so called ‘skilled’ work force.
As for the East Euro big issue seller it probably goes along the idea that working in whatever type of ‘job’ qualifies them for UK in work to up benefits.Which are needed to cover living costs in a low wage over supplied labour market.
All of the people I know in UK are working, not living on benefits.
UK Government should have fixed the benefit system long ago, so people can’t abuse it. All EU continental countries did it. You don’t work and don’t contribute for certain period of time, you don’t get benefits and is mandatory for all citizens and residents !
Winseer:
It’s bad enough to be facing the prospect of another World War at pretty much ANY point. The prospect of a multi-factioned war with no meaningful alliances though… THAT’S even worse.
Western forces should concentrate on “assisting” Turkey in the removal of ISIS - instead of them doing nothing, hoping that ISIS forces will remove the Kurds for them.
Instead, because of their reluctance to bring pressure upon Turkey - the Kurds get squeezed, and the West refuses to directly help them out - despite maintaining that they “support” the kurds.
In Syria meanwhile - there was an opportunity missed to attack ISIS without bothering to get permission. Now Russia have started their air campaign- it’s too late to take that approach now.
Turkey is only interested in posturing, not losing any territory, and getting accepted into the EU proper.
It’s too easy for the EU to leave Turkey as a buffer zone however, and of course that’s what Turkey now is. Easy for migrants to reach - but no one wants to stay there.
Not good enough. Turkey should be told by the EU and NATO to erradicate ISIS, give the Kurds what’s left after, and only accept migrants into Turkey that don’t want to move on from there.
Kids being washed up on beaches are dying trying to LEAVE Turkey rather than enter it after all…
I don’t think the Kurds with their own new nation - would object to then becoming the NEW buffer zone for further folks leaving places like Syria. They ARE quite happy to fight ISIS tooth and nail to win the land they currently occupy in the first place. Turkey’s refusal to act “because it’s in the kurds favour, rather than theirs” - weakens their position considerbly should the Kurds end up victorious by their paramilitary efforts in the region.
I think you’re under estimating Turkish Islamic sympathies and over estimating any allegiance which they might have with ‘the west’.The issue with ‘ISIS’ being a red herring in that regard being that ‘ISIS’ is jut another faction of the united Islamic cause.All of which being united against any type of regime which it sees as being not Islamic enough.Which means Assad in this case then if/when he’s gone it will be the Kurds then it will be the final showdown with Israel and probably by implication ‘the West’.On that note make no mistake Turkey is an enemy not an ally.Although the BBC already seems to be doing a great job of appeasing our own home grown immigrant Islamic sleeper problem in that regard in its obvious anti Israeli pro Arab stance. This is all turning into a massive cluster zb and zb storm and that’s even before China and North Korea have started kicking off against Taiwan and Japan and by implication a weak US etc.
war1974:
regarding immigration Dolph, I have no issue with people wanting to make a better life and bringing skills into the country, I don’t see how car washers etc. can be classed as this. I even saw a woman from Romania selling the big issue last week - how bad does your life have to be that you travel thousands of miles to sell a magazine in a foreign country.
This country isn’t exactly known for its lack of skills.Our immigration policy has always been about rigging the labour market in favour of over supply to keep wage levels down.While even if it was about importing so called ‘skills’ how does that help those countries which then lose their own so called ‘skilled’ work force.
As for the East Euro big issue seller it probably goes along the idea that working in whatever type of ‘job’ qualifies them for UK in work to up benefits.Which are needed to cover living costs in a low wage over supplied labour market.
All of the people I know in UK are working, not living on benefits.
UK Government should have fixed the benefit system long ago, so people can’t abuse it. All EU continental countries did it. You don’t work and don’t contribute for certain period of time, you don’t get benefits and is mandatory for all citizens and residents !
I’m referring to ‘in work benefits’ IE tax credits and income support and housing benefit etc etc.Which are needed because general incomes in this country don’t cover living costs.Those incomes being held down in large part by immigration form cheap labour countries.Which seems to be the bit that you’ve conveniently missed.
bloody hell . …I didn’t think this would cause such a stir of emotion…all i want is my country back…it wouldn’t bother me if the rest ov europe turn the backs on us…at least we could send people back t were they came from u only have to look at a place grow up in Sheffield they’ve made it a sess pit . … and yes I am a big ukip supporter…as anybody heard the new messiah tell any lies no…reet time to crack on from meer truckstop calais bound aaaa looks like I’ll b thea 4 days to cross but never mind were all Wednesday arnt we…Wawaw
As i understand it , it is EU rules that say if we pay universal child benefit here , we have got to pay it to poland , romania , hungary etc if a parent applies for it .
Even if that kid has never even been here !!
The only way to sort this mess is to leave . the sooner the better .
war1974:
regarding immigration Dolph, I have no issue with people wanting to make a better life and bringing skills into the country, I don’t see how car washers etc. can be classed as this. I even saw a woman from Romania selling the big issue last week - how bad does your life have to be that you travel thousands of miles to sell a magazine in a foreign country.
This country isn’t exactly known for its lack of skills.Our immigration policy has always been about rigging the labour market in favour of over supply to keep wage levels down.While even if it was about importing so called ‘skills’ how does that help those countries which then lose their own so called ‘skilled’ work force.
As for the East Euro big issue seller it probably goes along the idea that working in whatever type of ‘job’ qualifies them for UK in work to up benefits.Which are needed to cover living costs in a low wage over supplied labour market.
All of the people I know in UK are working, not living on benefits.
UK Government should have fixed the benefit system long ago, so people can’t abuse it. All EU continental countries did it. You don’t work and don’t contribute for certain period of time, you don’t get benefits and is mandatory for all citizens and residents !
I’m referring to ‘in work benefits’ IE tax credits and income support and housing benefit etc etc.Which are needed because general incomes in this country don’t cover living costs.Those incomes being held down in large part by immigration form cheap labour countries.Which seems to be the bit that you’ve conveniently missed.
I don’t forget anything, its not the immigrants fault as much as its UK Government and employers exploiting people. Labor laws into the bin, hiring illegals, not paying decent wage, not paying overtime or weekends work etc. Why UK Gov is keeping this minimum wage if can not support the living cost? What happened in some US states when the minimum wage was raised, like Washington and 29 others for example, the economy improved.
Bulgaria and Romania(and many other EE countries) can not afford such an increase, but UK can do it but doesn’t want to, why is not done? Its not the immigrants fault, stop using people for scapegoats.
I read with amusement that the chief of ‘Yes , stay in ’ campaign is going to be ‘Lord’ Stuart Rose . former head of M&S whom i seem to remember quit amongst scandal . Events involving ’ young gentlemen’ i seem to recall
Its almost as if ‘Yes’ is being set up to fail !
Meanwhile in asia , Boris Johnson is refusing to comment on speculation he is intending to campaign for ‘No , let us out’ !!
boredwivdrivin:
As i understand it , it is EU rules that say if we pay universal child benefit here , we have got to pay it to poland , romania , hungary etc if a parent applies for it .
Even if that kid has never even been here !!
The only way to sort this mess is to leave . the sooner the better .
Actually is UK laws allowing it, EU is telling you, that you cant discriminate on the basis of nationality. If a person from the countries you stated works and lives permanently in UK he/she is entitled to the same benefits like you.
Carryfast:
I’m referring to ‘in work benefits’ IE tax credits and income support and housing benefit etc etc.Which are needed because general incomes in this country don’t cover living costs.Those incomes being held down in large part by immigration form cheap labour countries.Which seems to be the bit that you’ve conveniently missed.
I don’t forget anything, its not the immigrants fault as much as its UK Government and employers exploiting people. Labor laws into the bin, hiring illegals, not paying decent wage, not paying overtime or weekends work etc. Why UK Gov is keeping this minimum wage if can not support the living cost? What happened in some US states when the minimum wage was raised, like Washington and 29 others for example, the economy improved.
Bulgaria and Romania(and many other EE countries) can not afford such an increase, but UK can do it but doesn’t want to, why is not done? Its not the immigrants fault, stop using people for scapegoats.
They are exploiting people because the people are allowing them to exploit them.Bulgaria and Romania are no different in that regard in that if you want good living standards you have to fight for them.On that note this country was no different to Eastern Europe in terms of living standards for the average worker and it took until the 1960’s/early 70’s to at least improve things in that regard in the form of strong unions.To which the employers answer was to close down our industry and import loads of cheap labour to over supply the labour market.Telling it like it is in that regard isn’t using foreign people as ‘scapegoats’.It’s telling them to stay at home and fight exploitation to turn their own countries into places worth staying in just like British workers had to do over the years.While the idea of running away from the problem just plays into the hands of the employers.
On that note I don’t regard Brits moving to our own colonies to maintain the pressure on the employers at home as the same thing.In fact it is the opposite.Which is why the employers are obviously all for free movement of cheap labour from under developed economies with downtrodden gutless workers.But not so keen on the same free movement between us and our colonies.
boredwivdrivin:
As i understand it , it is EU rules that say if we pay universal child benefit here , we have got to pay it to poland , romania , hungary etc if a parent applies for it .
Even if that kid has never even been here !!
The only way to sort this mess is to leave . the sooner the better .
Actually is UK laws allowing it, EU is telling you, that you cant discriminate on the basis of nationality. If a person from the countries you stated works and lives permanently in UK he/she is entitled to the same benefits like you.
The answer obviously being stopping the import of cheap labour.Thereby reducing supply in the Labour market,thereby increasing wage levels,thereby removing the need for in work benefits.
As it stands immigrant labour is actually complicit in a wage rigging scheme that uses tax payers money to subsidise low wage employment and profits based on exploitation of same.Resulting in an economy that’s collapsing because the whole idea goes against the principles of Fordist capitalism.