In or out of he eu referendum

[carryfast]

Dolph:
So its EU fault that UK waste is money on benefit system and wars■■?
Everyone in EU can go and work in Norway, but not so many people know the language and like the cold weather.
EU nationals go to UK to work not for benefits, the main reason is strong pound and English language. Do you know that I speak English since 8th grade, started learning it in 5th, it was mandatory in BG schools to choose from several western languages.

How does any of that make any difference as to wether this country runs itself or hands its government ( and borders ) over to the EU federation.So you speak English who cares.We want our country back and to secede from the EU.Where’s the connection.

[winseer]

The EU have got a lot of cards in all of this:

(1) The referendum might yet not take place - if the EU can talk Cameron out of having it by the backdoor.
(2) SHOULD the referendum take place - it will be timed to be on a great weather day, but out of main holiday season. I suggest late September 2017. The reasons for this will be that the sort of person who can only be arsed to vote when it’s nice outside - are the same people that would vote to “Stay In” and many of them - the same people that voted Tory at the last minute back in May.

(3) Should the referendum be an “out” result - The government backed by the EU will argue that less than a 2-1 majority to leave, means we should not turn the entire country upside down over such a narrow result. “Go have another referendum” we’ll be told - just like Ireland.

(4) Should the result be a clear 67%+ - The same argument (3) applies - only this time it will be of the ENTIRE electorate, rather than the score just in of those who voted. In other words, a “low turnout” works in the EU’s favour to stay in.

(5) So… We’ve got a 70% out of the entire UK population who want to vote “Out”… The EU make the entire referendum result “unlawful”. If we “press it” - we will be in breach of Brussels directive, and heavily fined. If we accept that we “lost” with the huge poll to “leave” - we can have this minor concession from Brussels “Absolutely Free” as a show of goodwill. Perhaps they’ll reduce our contributions into the EU by 10% whilst the Conservatives remain in office. Cameron resigning therefore - won’t be allowed either. An attempt to “Crown” Osbourne at this point will have riots on the streets - A general election will have to be held a month later instead, which may well see Tatton fall to an independent - as it did when unseating Hamilton for Bell a few years ago.

(6) We decide to press the result - the EU sanctions us. They will actually call it a “retractment of standing trade deals” though, as if it was always implied that “leaving the EU is to sanction one’s self.”

(7) If the Conservatives are still in power by this point (no reason to suspsect why they wouldn’t be) - That will be the end of it. We are still in the EU, but under sanction until we accept whatever new reparative scheme that Brussels decides to throw at us - for trying to throw off the yoke of supression.

Meanwhile, what chance have the “Out” voters got? - If 4m votes only got UKIP one seat - then I’m thinking that 40m votes in favour of “leaving the EU” will still be 10% short of the target - as far as international recognition is concerned.

America want the same as the EU want. No help there then.

There are not enough of HM armed forces left to stage a coup either. No ‘1789 France’ or ‘1776 America’ revolution for us either.

[boredwivdrivin]

Will be nice IF we stay in tho …

… Cause politicals hell bent on Turkey joining .

GREAT ( hefty sarcasm for the hard of thinking )

[carryfast]

Winseer:
The EU have got a lot of cards in all of this:

(1) The referendum might yet not take place - if the EU can talk Cameron out of having it by the backdoor.
(2) SHOULD the referendum take place - it will be timed to be on a great weather day, but out of main holiday season. I suggest late September 2017. The reasons for this will be that the sort of person who can only be arsed to vote when it’s nice outside - are the same people that would vote to “Stay In” and many of them - the same people that voted Tory at the last minute back in May.

(3) Should the referendum be an “out” result - The government backed by the EU will argue that less than a 2-1 majority to leave, means we should not turn the entire country upside down over such a narrow result. “Go have another referendum” we’ll be told - just like Ireland.

(4) Should the result be a clear 67%+ - The same argument (3) applies - only this time it will be of the ENTIRE electorate, rather than the score just in of those who voted. In other words, a “low turnout” works in the EU’s favour to stay in.

(5) So… We’ve got a 70% out of the entire UK population who want to vote “Out”… The EU make the entire referendum result “unlawful”. If we “press it” - we will be in breach of Brussels directive, and heavily fined. If we accept that we “lost” with the huge poll to “leave” - we can have this minor concession from Brussels “Absolutely Free” as a show of goodwill. Perhaps they’ll reduce our contributions into the EU by 10% whilst the Conservatives remain in office. Cameron resigning therefore - won’t be allowed either. An attempt to “Crown” Osbourne at this point will have riots on the streets - A general election will have to be held a month later instead, which may well see Tatton fall to an independent - as it did when unseating Hamilton for Bell a few years ago.

(6) We decide to press the result - the EU sanctions us. They will actually call it a “retractment of standing trade deals” though, as if it was always implied that “leaving the EU is to sanction one’s self.”

(7) If the Conservatives are still in power by this point (no reason to suspsect why they wouldn’t be) - That will be the end of it. We are still in the EU, but under sanction until we accept whatever new reparative scheme that Brussels decides to throw at us - for trying to throw off the yoke of supression.

Meanwhile, what chance have the “Out” voters got? - If 4m votes only got UKIP one seat - then I’m thinking that 40m votes in favour of “leaving the EU” will still be 10% short of the target - as far as international recognition is concerned.

America want the same as the EU want. No help there then.

There are not enough of HM armed forces left to stage a coup either. No ‘1789 France’ or ‘1776 America’ revolution for us either.

^ This.
Which is why I said that UKIP is barking up the wrong tree by following Cameron’s agenda rather than carrying on the fight that Powell,Benn and Shore started.In that our membership of the EU is an illegal treasonous act that goes against the country’s constitution.On that note we aren’t ‘yet’ in a situation whereby the deals that Heath etc have signed include the right of the EU to send in an EU force to deal with an internal matter within our own borders to get us out.Better that now than the inevitable real war of secession with the EU that we’ll be condemning future generations to.As for America don’t underestimate the continuing level of anti federalist sentiment there based on the ( correct ) idea that the wrong side won the US civil war.

[daytrunker]

OUT for me,shut the borders to illegals send back those who don’t deserve to be here stop the farce of foreign aid,most are here already.
Spend the foreign aid on mending the country successive governments have screwed into a pale copy of a once Great Britain.

[windrush]

Dolph:
All of this politicians are/were elected by the British electorate, some of them twice. So how come Brits don’t like where their politicians are taking the country but keep electing the very same politicians? Cameron second term is good example of this.

Basically dolph it is because we Brits are all masochists at heart and enjoy something to complain about, if we didn’t have politicians, immigrants or crap sporting teams to moan about we would have to invent something else so we are fortunate in having plenty of subjects for Carryfast to get his teeth into! In my 65 years I have never lived under a government that satisfied everyone and I guess I never will now?

Pete.

[carryfast]

windrush:
In my 65 years I have never lived under a government that satisfied everyone and I guess I never will now?

Pete.

The issue is that no government had/has the right to compromise the sovereignty of our own government within our own borders.Which is what Heath and every PM since has done.

[winseer]

Halfway between the political aspects of leaving the EU and the polical aspects of the continuing immigration crisis…

Enforcing our own laws in such a way we don’t also get sanctioned by Brussels:-

Every truck coming into this country pays an entry visa of £200 which is roughly the difference in wages whilst here for the foreign incoming driver and what OUR driver would get forwarding the freight from a depot on the far side of the channel. Having our own drivers "go out to Calais/Dunquerque/Vlissengen etc. to bring it here - would help our under-siege jobs market quite a bit.
Whilst we are in the EU - we’d get told “You can’t do that” by Brussels of course.

On the subject of recent cuts to tax credits - Isuspect that the Tories originally wanted to cut tax credits for immigrants to zero, whilst leaving tax credits of home-grown Brits untouched.
Brussels said “No”, and now we have them cut for ALL instead. Massive resentment at home, as it tilts the entire tax credit economy away from British workers wanting to reduce their hours (like myself!) onto those who’ve got no tax returns for last year ('cos they’ve only just got here!) who will now be the ones who qualify for the “new maximums”. Too much of tax credits is based upon having a high amount of undeclared income and less now is based on having kids. You get all this “free childcare” thus encouraging latchkey children, but REDUCED money for having a stay at home Mum… Not bad going for the Tories, seeing as Mom was getting close to bugger-all as it was… Unused Income tax allowance, overly expensive public transport, no local jobs, unable to claim jobseekers because she’s not availble for work… Then I get told on my own “you earn too much - you no longer qualify”… Meanwhile, two working parents with latchkey children pulling in £44k EACH still get child benefit, and the full childcare allowances put in place these last 5 years.

Immigrants can still share a “hand car wash” job between a dozen of them, draw a wage of 30 hours x £6.50, and get the maximum tax credit top-up.
Money gets cut the futher you work beyond 30 hours you see, but you’ve got to do the 30 hours itself - to reach the maximum extent of entitlement.
As a Digicard user - there’s no way I can consider working “off book” hours as the growing immigrant jobs ecnonomy can do at will - to make their wages qualify for the optimum amount of “reformned” tax credits.

I’ve now reached the point of “it’s no longer working for me on agency, and am likely to take the first £30k+ job going”.
The negotiations are going to be about “how few hours for that amount?” - I’m thinking…

[chainsaw]

Speedy Duck:
There will be no need to change the patterns of countries with whom we trade.

It is a smokescreen

We traded with all European countries prior to membership. We traded with all European countries prior to break down of trade and non-trade barriers.

We re-negotiate trading terms immediately, the same as we trade with them now. No trade or non=trade barriers.

Everything stays the same (in terms of trade)

What changes is we save all the gravy train and membership money, and regain our own independent legislature.

SD

Well said that man

[chainsaw]

Dolph:

CHAINSAW:

Dolph:
Chainsaw, you are very mistaken to give countries like Norway and the others as example. Yes they are fine, but they have to comply with EU rules in order to trade with the union. All principles like free movement of people and capital are mandatory for them as well and they have no say in EU policy. If UK is out of EU in order to trade has to oblige with the EU principles and will not be able to shape its policy.
The main goal of reducing EU migrants in UK will not be achieved by leaving the union.

Sorry Dolph but Norway are the 6th richest country GDP/per capita because they invested their North Sea oil money rather than waste it on benefits system and war, which is the whole reason our country is being flooded with migrants now!!!

My point was Europe is a tiny piece of the world and there are a lot more countries to trade with!

So its EU fault that UK waste is money on benefit system and wars■■?
Everyone in EU can go and work in Norway, but not so many people know the language and like the cold weather.
EU nationals go to UK to work not for benefits, the main reason is strong pound and English language. Do you know that I speak English since 8th grade, started learning it in 5th, it was mandatory in BG schools to choose from several western languages.

No Dolph where did I state that it is the EU’ s fault that Britain spent money on benefits and war■■? We did that under our own legislation and governments!
And the reality is that most migrants to this country are getting benefits and aid that as a British citizen and 30 year tax payer I am unable to access myself.
Most of the migrants are working minimum wage jobs, and thereby dragging our wages down, whilst claiming working tax credits, child benefit and housing benefit whilst contributing little in return via their tax code…
And I am happy that you have been taught English from the 5th grade, imagine what the affect on British school children is with the mass influx of non or little speaking English children into their classes■■?

[gazsa401]

I’m voting to quit this ■■■■/Merkel led EU con
But don’t hold your breath cos the pig fancier Cameron will let as many eastern bloc migrants in
Then they’ll all be allowed to have a vote on the referendum and hey presto we’ll be lumbered and stuck in with Thatchers spawn Cameron declaring the people have voted and Adolf Merkel the new leader of of the United States of Europe with us being run by a puppet parish council called Westminster with Brussels calling the shots

[chainsaw]

Carryfast:

Dolph:

Carryfast:

Dolph:
Chainsaw, you are very mistaken to give countries like Norway and the others as example. Yes they are fine, but they have to comply with EU rules in order to trade with the union. All principles like free movement of people and capital are mandatory for them as well and they have no say in EU policy. If UK is out of EU in order to trade has to oblige with the EU principles and will not be able to shape its policy.
The main goal of reducing EU migrants in UK will not be achieved by leaving the union.

That’s because EFTA isn’t in the position of strength that it would be with us back in it.On that note are you seriously suggesting that the EU would be up for a trade war with it if we all tell them to stuff their rules and regulations.

Oh you think you can screw the whole EU project - first you insisted of accepting Eastern European countries into EU, even though we were no where near ready, second you refuse to accept the euro, then you refuse to be members of Schengen and you think you will get away with it? UK is always opposite of the Continent and kissing US azz, especially when comes to wars(huge spending), even UK military pilots are involved in bombing Syria under US command. I don’t exclude trade war if UK leaves the EU and ■■■■■■ of all of the rest EU members.
Well in Brexit employers(like Honda) will leave UK for mainland EU, investor will leave or not go to UK etc. 52% of UK export(400 bn pounds) is to EU, put 20% import tax to this and UK economy will suffer massive blow. You said you will not buy BMW and VW, then don’t the Germans will export them to whoever wants them.
Deutsche bank said earlier this year in Brexit they will shut down UK office - 9000 employees out of work, and thats just one business. How do you think this will be accepted into British society? 3 million British jobs are directly linked to EU, what will happen with all the treaties sign thru the years, what about families of mixed marriages, what about UK nationals in EU, or EU nationals in UK? There is so many questions to be answered.

What you’re describing is the EU throwing its toys out of the pram because we want out.As I said do you really think that the EU would win a trade war with us on that basis.The idea of using Honda etc as leverage being just part of that.IE it doesn’t matter because at the end of the day the domestic market is worth more than our EU export markets.Which is why we’ve been in trade deficit with the zb place since we joined unlike the trade surplus we had before.

Surely Honda is a Japanese company■■? We might not have a British car industry anymore but from what I understand the British car factores (Honda, Nissan, jAGUAR) are all foreign owned - none European - yet are world class at what they are doing??

[boredwivdrivin]

Any reduction in our economy will be more than compensated by removal of soviets .

Any immigrant needs will be met by our friends in west indies and india .

People dont seem to realise that commonwealth citizens are having hard time getting visas . parts of bristol have been subject to ethnic cleansing by removal of windies, only to be replaced by soviets and illegals .

Thats wot really gets my goat

[carryfast]

Winseer:
Every truck coming into this country pays an entry visa of £200 which is roughly the difference in wages whilst here for the foreign incoming driver and what OUR driver would get forwarding the freight from a depot on the far side of the channel. Having our own drivers "go out to Calais/Dunquerque/Vlissengen etc. to bring it here - would help our under-siege jobs market quite a bit.

If you want to increase the domestic demand for labour then you need to increase the amount of miles in the job.In which case a rule that 50% of international road freight journeys entering and leaving have to on Brit registered vehicles would do a lot more in that regard.

[chainsaw]

Winseer:
Halfway between the political aspects of leaving the EU and the polical aspects of the continuing immigration crisis…

Enforcing our own laws in such a way we don’t also get sanctioned by Brussels:-

Every truck coming into this country pays an entry visa of £200 which is roughly the difference in wages whilst here for the foreign incoming driver and what OUR driver would get forwarding the freight from a depot on the far side of the channel. Having our own drivers "go out to Calais/Dunquerque/Vlissengen etc. to bring it here - would help our under-siege jobs market quite a bit.
Whilst we are in the EU - we’d get told “You can’t do that” by Brussels of course.

On the subject of recent cuts to tax credits - Isuspect that the Tories originally wanted to cut tax credits for immigrants to zero, whilst leaving tax credits of home-grown Brits untouched.
Brussels said “No”, and now we have them cut for ALL instead. Massive resentment at home, as it tilts the entire tax credit economy away from British workers wanting to reduce their hours (like myself!) onto those who’ve got no tax returns for last year ('cos they’ve only just got here!) who will now be the ones who qualify for the “new maximums”. Too much of tax credits is based upon having a high amount of undeclared income and less now is based on having kids. You get all this “free childcare” thus encouraging latchkey children, but REDUCED money for having a stay at home Mum… Not bad going for the Tories, seeing as Mom was getting close to bugger-all as it was… Unused Income tax allowance, overly expensive public transport, no local jobs, unable to claim jobseekers because she’s not availble for work… Then I get told on my own “you earn too much - you no longer qualify”… Meanwhile, two working parents with latchkey children pulling in £44k EACH still get child benefit, and the full childcare allowances put in place these last 5 years.

Immigrants can still share a “hand car wash” job between a dozen of them, draw a wage of 30 hours x £6.50, and get the maximum tax credit top-up.
Money gets cut the futher you work beyond 30 hours you see, but you’ve got to do the 30 hours itself - to reach the maximum extent of entitlement.
As a Digicard user - there’s no way I can consider working “off book” hours as the growing immigrant jobs ecnonomy can do at will - to make their wages qualify for the optimum amount of “reformned” tax credits.

I’ve now reached the point of “it’s no longer working for me on agency, and am likely to take the first £30k+ job going”.
The negotiations are going to be about “how few hours for that amount?” - I’m thinking…

Well said Winseer, you hit the notes that are being ignored throughout this country. I earn about 20K a year as I have to have a lot of time off for childcare, I get no help benefits tax credits, that all goes to Mother who is swanning around and having foreign holidays on the benefit money and tax credits that are being thrown at women to go back to work, whilst the kids are dumped in Nursery, and our tax money is paying for it. You tell me how can anyone on minimum wage, yet alone 3ok plus contribute enough in tax to justify what they actually take out of the system -NHS, Schooling, pension etc.- it’s one big pyramid system that is going to fail…

[carryfast]

CHAINSAW:
Surely Honda is a Japanese company■■? We might not have a British car industry anymore but from what I understand the British car factories (Honda, Nissan, jAGUAR) are all foreign owned - none European - yet are world class at what they are doing??

It isn’t as simple as that.Being foreign owned they have no allegiance or ties here whatsoever.In which case the EU threatens them with trade sanctions and they obviously take the side of the EU.When at least from Jaguar’s point of view they’d have more to gain in a protected UK market environment which takes out the German competition here.With the win win situation that they’ll have to find a UK transmission supplier or make their own in house ones again so more jobs and training opportunities for Brit workers not German ones.Assuming that Tata don’t like it then that leaves the option of saying thanks for the investment now do one just like the Arabs did with the UK oil industry.

[tango_boy]

Steve-o:
Back to GB domestic rules and 60 mph

A lot of firms do 60mph, get on !

[geoffo]

CHAINSAW:
Surely Honda is a Japanese company■■? We might not have a British car industry anymore but from what I understand the British car factores (Honda, Nissan, jAGUAR) are all foreign owned - none European - yet are world class at what they are doing??

These car companies get paid European subsidies to have car plants in the UK… If the UK pulls out of Europe then the subsidies stop…

[boredwivdrivin]

Where does EU get its cash from to pay these lovely subsidies ■■

[carryfast]

Geoffo:

CHAINSAW:
Surely Honda is a Japanese company■■? We might not have a British car industry anymore but from what I understand the British car factores (Honda, Nissan, jAGUAR) are all foreign owned - none European - yet are world class at what they are doing??

These car companies get paid European subsidies to have car plants in the UK… If the UK pulls out of Europe then the subsidies stop…

Yes but so does every German car and truck sale here.

youtube.com/watch?v=3hcmGG6VUsU