scaniason:
I’m voting in (although I’ll keep an open mind, and may change if convinced by facts rather than emotion)
Being that ‘facts’ like trade deficit and net contribution figures and loss of sovereignty in having people like Merkel telling us what to do obviously aren’t considered as important issues.Then realistically the ‘open mindedness’ of the in campaign is no different to that of Heath’s when the Federalist zbwit took us into the scam.
I don’t know how to put it on but has anyone got farage speech about turkey that’s doing the rounds on facebook? regarding turkey.
If you can provide me with cast-iron facts that trade deficit WILL become surplus, that the Tory government won’t use the loss of EU control to tear up years of hard-won workers rights, that the loss of other financial benefits will be outweighed by the gain of not having to pay net contributions, then I’ll reconsider.
I won’t reconsider on the usual bollix of ‘they need us more than we need them’, or ‘we’ll build loads of hospitals / roads / schools etc’ with the money we’ll save’.
If we leave, there will still be as many foreign workers over here, as many foreign trucks on the road, the only difference is that they’ll be protected under EU employment laws, whereas we’ll be shafted - mustn’t upset the governments owners after all.
I’m not claiming that the EU is perfect, it’s far from it. But I’d rather work and live under its rules than a totally unchained Tory government (or even a New Labour type of government).
war1974:
I don’t know how to put it on but has anyone got farage speech about turkey that’s doing the rounds on facebook? regarding turkey.
“Yesterdays” speech on Turkey. It’s not the first time it’s come up in the EU parliament. 
scaniason:
If you can provide me with cast-iron facts that trade deficit WILL become surplus, that the Tory government won’t use the loss of EU control to tear up years of hard-won workers rights, that the loss of other financial benefits will be outweighed by the gain of not having to pay net contributions, then I’ll reconsider.I won’t reconsider on the usual bollix of ‘they need us more than we need them’, or ‘we’ll build loads of hospitals / roads / schools etc’ with the money we’ll save’.
If we leave, there will still be as many foreign workers over here, as many foreign trucks on the road, the only difference is that they’ll be protected under EU employment laws, whereas we’ll be shafted - mustn’t upset the governments owners after all.
I’m not claiming that the EU is perfect, it’s far from it. But I’d rather work and live under its rules than a totally unchained Tory government (or even a New Labour type of government).
The truth is, “Being a future event, and no one can actually tell the future” - no one should be expected to know. Thus, we get scare stories on both sides rather than anything visionary from a big-hitting politician whom people listen to.
Mark Carney this week seemed to be declaring “Neutrality” whilst “talking us to stay in” which seemed a bit of a contradictory stance.
However, he would have been privy to the announcement today that the ECB has slashed interest rates to -0.4% (deposits) and 0.0% (base rate) as of today.
THIS means that the future direction of interest rates is “lower still” if we stay in the EU, and “stable” if we leave, or “rising” if you think the worst of the UK leaving.
Thing is, the prospect of a higher interest rate has no effect on poor people who don’t have a mortgage, a negative effect on middle-incomers in debt, and a positive effect on wealthy savers.
Further rate CUTS on the other hand would benefit people like myself with big mortgages, and no savings, continue to have no effect on the poor with no property or savings, and a negative effect on those who’ve already paid their mortgages off, and can’t get a decent return for love nor money on their savings…
So… What group do YOU consider yourselves to be in, and does the prospect of the next Bank of England moving to cut rates to zero (or beyond!) - make up your mind as to which way to vote come June’s referendum?
We follow suit with the EU if we stay in. We can do our own thing either way - if we’re independent. What say all those middle class working savers that up until now were staunch supporters of “staying in”?
Any waverers as of today? - Or are there only Waberers on this board? 
Agreed that we can’t predict the future, which is why I am highly sceptical of all the out pronouncements about how wonderful the UK will become if we leave. It is truly an unknown quantity, as we have no experience of the modern world on our own. If we had a string industrial base, and a willingness to carry out long-term investment, we would stand a better chance, but as the UK is the European capital of greed and selfishness, all decisions would be made with the short-term in mind.
As a worker with a mortgage, I’d welcome interest rates being as low as possible, but that’s not the be-all and end-all for me - I want my kids to have the best options for the future, which to my mind means staying in the EU and having the freedom to move where they choose, and live where they like, and not being nailed down to a tory workhouse-like economy.
scaniason:
If you can provide me with cast-iron facts that trade deficit WILL become surplus, that the Tory government won’t use the loss of EU control to tear up years of hard-won workers rights, that the loss of other financial benefits will be outweighed by the gain of not having to pay net contributions, then I’ll reconsider.I won’t reconsider on the usual bollix of ‘they need us more than we need them’, or ‘we’ll build loads of hospitals / roads / schools etc’ with the money we’ll save’.
If we leave, there will still be as many foreign workers over here, as many foreign trucks on the road, the only difference is that they’ll be protected under EU employment laws, whereas we’ll be shafted - mustn’t upset the governments owners after all.
I’m not claiming that the EU is perfect, it’s far from it. But I’d rather work and live under its rules than a totally unchained Tory government (or even a New Labour type of government).
Do you really think that the EU gives a zb about workers rights.Why do you think they’ve not imposed an EU wide minimum wage in that case.
Here’s a clue.I think Kate Howey and Peter Shore and Tony Benn and Eric Heffer before her are/were more into ‘British workers’ rights than your free movement of cheap labour and British jobs for German and East Euro workers CBI allies. 
As for ‘cast iron facts’ concerning the trade deficit.The ‘fact’ is the numbers speak for themselves and you won’t be able to fix that with a so called ‘Labour’ Party that believes in Federal rule by people like Merkel and free markets.Which doesn’t reserve the right to impose tarrifs and quotas to maintain trade balance with people like ze Germans who think they have a god given right to be uber alles and to stop race to the bottom under cutting by East Euros and China etc.That applies whether its the EU version or the Global Free Market version.Although on that note why should the out campaign need to provide a higher level of proof in that regard than your in campaign lot needed to drop us into the scam from day 1.
That’s in addition to a stasi led EU immigration policy that’s throwing Europe to the Islamic invasion wolves.
scaniason:
Agreed that we can’t predict the future, which is why I am highly sceptical of all the out pronouncements about how wonderful the UK will become if we leave. It is truly an unknown quantity, as we have no experience of the modern world on our own. If we had a string industrial base, and a willingness to carry out long-term investment, we would stand a better chance, but as the UK is the European capital of greed and selfishness, all decisions would be made with the short-term in mind.As a worker with a mortgage, I’d welcome interest rates being as low as possible, but that’s not the be-all and end-all for me - I want my kids to have the best options for the future, which to my mind means staying in the EU and having the freedom to move where they choose, and live where they like, and not being nailed down to a tory workhouse-like economy.
It isn’t a so called ‘truly unknown’ quantity it’s only an unknown quantity for those who are too young to remember and know a world outside the EU and within EFTA.A world before ze Gemans took most of British industry and turned us into a net importer of German goods in exchange for giving them oil.Feel free to dig us deeper into Merkel’s zb storm.Or get out now and rebuild the country’s industrial base.Bearing in mind that the former choice will just make us a bigger massively over populated version of Greece or Ireland economically and a version of the former Yugoslavia societally…
As for your low interest rates ( effectively an institutional housing benefit scam ).Great how long before the mug investors decide to take their money out or their capital is eroded to nothing and what happens to your free lunch socialist dream then.
You do realise that the world has moved on a bit in the last 40+ years don’t you? This is real life, not life on mars - in the event of an out vote, you’re not going to wake up and find Austin allegros parked outside - or maybe you will?
Winseer:
Further rate CUTS on the other hand would benefit people like myself with big mortgages, and no savings, continue to have no effect on the poor with no property or savings, and a negative effect on those who’ve already paid their mortgages off, and can’t get a decent return for love nor money on their savings
In which case what’s in it for savers and how would removing ‘their’ incentive to provide ‘you’ with Capital be of ‘benefit’ to ‘you’ when those savers decide to take their capital out and spend it or invest it in cheap buy to let repossessed housing when the mortgage market collapses.Let me guess under Merkel’s Socialist utopia she’ll just print more worthless cash to make up for the lost Capital.
scaniason:
You do realise that the world has moved on a bit in the last 40+ years don’t you? This is real life, not life on mars - in the event of an out vote, you’re not going to wake up and find Austin allegros parked outside - or maybe you will?
But you’re not going to be able to pay for those German or even Chinese imports when the realities,of what an unsustainable trade deficit and an under employed workforce in an over supplied labour market,means,hit you.Just as in the case of Greece.That’s real life.
mazzer:
eddie snax:
Oh the ironyMade smile tbh
The expats shouldn’t be allowed to vote most of them will want to stay in as financially it will suit them. A woman living in Ireland was on the radio the other day she had been out of the UK for 15 years and was complaining that she had lost the right to vote in the UK and that if the UK pulled she would lose the use of her E1 11 card and have to pay health insurance just like everyone else in Ireland. To sum up basically she wanted nothing to do with the UK hadn’t paid a penny towards the NHS for the last 15 years yet expected it to treat her and people go on about EE being benefit scroungers would seem we have plenty of home grown ones.
Well from most off those on 5live this morning, they wanted out.
As for the NHS thing, I know of a Man, who spent most of his working life in the Gulf or North Africa in the Oil and Gas industry. Obviously tax free from the UK. Has spent most of his retirement in Spain, yet when he needed serious medical care, returned to the UK waving his British passport, makes Me sick…
Winseer:
.
Ex-pats still get to vote if they are still paying some kind of taxes on pension money sent out to the Costa del Auldpharts.
]
I think they can pay tax in their country of residence, but will get a vote if resident in the UK in the last 15 yrs.
An expat Women in Spain on 5live today, made out that 280000 expat Brits in Spain are bank rolling the country, as in “we spend all our pensions over here, we’re good for their economy”, to Me that just shouts arrogance
Carryfast:
scaniason:
You do realise that the world has moved on a bit in the last 40+ years don’t you? This is real life, not life on mars - in the event of an out vote, you’re not going to wake up and find Austin allegros parked outside - or maybe you will?But you’re not going to be able to pay for those German or even Chinese imports when the realities,of what an unsustainable trade deficit and an under employed workforce in an over supplied labour market,means,hit you.Just as in the case of Greece.That’s real life.
But we’re not going to able to afford those German imports once trade tariff’s and hidden costs of customs, are added to the final price, and lets not forget, it takes two too make a market, We want to buy those BMW’s or Audi’s in the case of Mrs Snax, as much as the Germans want, not need, to sell to us. The doctrine of it takes 2 too make a market, applies also in as much, as the single EU market is considerably larger than our’s
Free trade agreements with the EU, wont happen in the UK’s favour, until such time as the EU is sure that no other member see’s exit as the sensible option, and that will be years. or even decades
The EU is running scared of Brexit, Cameron should have pushed for more, but he didn’t. What he did get though is worth staying in for, and if We hopefully stay in, there may well be a mass group hug. If we leave and take our ball away, then the EU will have a big sulk, buy their own ball, and then refuse to let us to join in their games 
Cameron should take up being a comedian , with his bs, about the once struggling haulage industry that has benefited from the EU , because there are no borders in most of the EU, ,But what about all the ZB that being in the EU has brought , cheap labour, and little to no profit for hauliers due to being in the EU as the uk has been flooded with lorries from other countries , how is that good for us? Cameron doesn’t want us out of the EU because he knows if that happens he will be out on his ear, the boris and IBS wanting out is a ploy they secretly want to stay in the EU , but Dave knows that they are amongst the most hated tory
MP’s and hopes that by them wanting out that many will vote to remain in the EU,
tommy t:
Cameron should take up being a comedian , with his bs, about the once struggling haulage industry that has benefited from the EU , because there are no borders in most of the EU, ,But what about all the ZB that being in the EU has brought , cheap labour, and little to no profit for hauliers due to being in the EU as the uk has been flooded with lorries from other countries , how is that good for us? Cameron doesn’t want us out of the EU because he knows if that happens he will be out on his ear, the boris and IBS wanting out is a ploy they secretly want to stay in the EU , but Dave knows that they are amongst the most hated tory
MP’s and hopes that by them wanting out that many will vote to remain in the EU,
He’s standing down as PM before 2020 anyway, so it doesn’t really make that much difference whether that’s 2016 or 2020. Don’t forget, Camerons view of Haulage will come from the large logistics players, and from where I sit, they’re doing all right
tommy t:
Cameron should take up being a comedian , with his bs, about the once struggling haulage industry that has benefited from the EU , because there are no borders in most of the EU
CMR convention still applies regardless of EU membership and Switzerland and Norway aren’t exactly a no go area for cross border road transport movements.While like our manufacturing industry the EU has actually decimated our international road transport operations in terms of market share with the removal of quota permits.Which then also leaves the issue of cabotage by cheap East Euro competition if we stay.Cameron is a lying zb using baseless scare tactics to carry on Heath’s and Thatcher’s Federalist agenda.On that note he’s all for frightening uk car workers with bs threats to their jobs.From a position of German/EU workers actually being more reliant on selling German/EU products here than we sell there resulting in UK membership actually meaning a net loss of UK jobs.As usual the in campaign for people who don’t understand basic simple maths.
eddie snax:
Don’t forget, Camerons view of Haulage will come from the large logistics players, and from where I sit, they’re doing all right
The question is do the big players actually even use UK international haulage providers or do they sub the work out to cheap East Euro operators and pocket the savings for themselves ?.
eddie snax:
Carryfast:
But you’re not going to be able to pay for those German or even Chinese imports when the realities,of what an unsustainable trade deficit and an under employed workforce in an over supplied labour market,means,hit you.Just as in the case of Greece.That’s real life.But we’re not going to able to afford those German imports once trade tariff’s and hidden costs of customs, are added to the final price, and lets not forget, it takes two too make a market, We want to buy those BMW’s or Audi’s in the case of Mrs Snax, as much as the Germans want, not need, to sell to us. The doctrine of it takes 2 too make a market, applies also in as much, as the single EU market is considerably larger than our’s
Free trade agreements with the EU, wont happen in the UK’s favour, until such time as the EU is sure that no other member see’s exit as the sensible option, and that will be years. or even decades
The EU is running scared of Brexit, Cameron should have pushed for more, but he didn’t. What he did get though is worth staying in for, and if We hopefully stay in, there may well be a mass group hug. If we leave and take our ball away, then the EU will have a big sulk, buy their own ball, and then refuse to let us to join in their games
So the in campaign is based on the idea that UK German car buyers are scared that they won’t be able to buy their German imports. 
Either because we’ll tax them into a position of trade balance or ze Germans will put an embargo on sales of their cars to us for daring to leave the Fourth Reich.
Tough Mrs Snax will just have to get used to driving a Jag at least when British workers and designers have replaced its German transmission.
Although you’ve still not explained how you’ll pay for those German imports,or anything else,anyway when the UK economy suddenly finds itself in the situation of Greece.On that note no the EU market isn’t as big to UK exporters as the UK market is to EU exporters.Hence our massive trade deficit with the EU ever since we joined the scam.
eddie snax:
He’s standing down as PM before 2020 anyway, so it doesn’t really make that much difference whether that’s 2016 or 2020. Don’t forget, Camerons view of Haulage will come from the large logistics players, and from where I sit, they’re doing all right
It makes a big difference for many the sooner he and his bunch of toffs have their snouts removed from the public ■■■■■ the better, just as is the sooner we leave the EU stop the flow of people coming here to live, the turk’s will be next and it won’t be long before they get visa’s
The only problem left is what do we replace this government with, Labour nope, Lib Dims definitely not, ukip, i have my reservations about as well, that’s the problem none of them are vote worthy imo all are zb’s
tommy t:
just as is the sooner we leave the EU stop the flow of people coming here to live, the turk’s will be next and it won’t be long before they get visa’s
It’s a reasonable bet that free movement for the ‘Turks’ effectively means free movement for a large proportion of the Islamic world.I’d guess at that point it will be a good bet that the Germans and the French will chuck out Merkel and Hollande and leave the Eurasian Union.
As for who to vote for.We need a new Nationalist Labour Party and government and we won’t be able to sort that out while we remain in the EU.
Nor with an electorate that’s brainwashed into thinking that Federalism and/or Socialism are good.On that note UKIP are as good as it gets at present.
