Heathrow Expansion

Taking a look from further out now, about the concept of “Commuting to jobs” generally:

The amount of Traffic on our roads, in particular the western stretch of the M25 is a complete joke.
What we’ve got too much of these days - is people commuting to other towns, pure and simple.

It would make more sense to develop and re-generate those areas where there is a high level of unemployment and schools churning out higher-than-the-national-average levels of school levers.

In any case, all this “Apprentice” talk is for naught - if the workplaces doing such apprentice schemes are “in another town” that we all know is bloody expensive for the average 18-21 year old to get to, what with car insurance being as expensive as it is for that age group in particular.

The reason that so many young people work in places like MacDs rather than other “Better job” establishments for “the same money” - is that it’s very likely a local job to where said youngsters actually live.

Anyone without kids commuting for a minimum wage job - is not going to really benefit from the in-work benefits system much as it stands.

The Heathrow expansion involves evicting people from their long standing homes a LOT more than building it on some marsh such as is the Isle of Grain.
Where are those people going to move to? - Pay them handsomely for their “compulsory purchases” and they’ll either move completely out of the area, or may even retire abroad depending on the age involved.
That creates a drain on local workers then.
If some of those residents were things like low-paid pillars of society like Teachers, GPs, etc. then you also get public services disappearing in the area at the local level.
Also, who among the local workforce is actually still looking for work at this point? I would imagine that being an employment agency is a goldmine in the heathrow area as it is - without further expansion needed to keep this goose from laying the golden eggs of “local recruitment demand”…!

Compare that to a dump like Medway where even I find myself having to commute to surrounding towns whilst even working on agency, and of course also for my recently taken full time position.
There’s no income-generating work to speak of in Medway beyond Retail, Recycling, and Retards. (Most people on benefits around here are claiming for that ADHD type nonesense, it seems)
When government talks of “Let’s concentrate on the 3 R’s” - this must have been what they were referring to then. :unamused: :imp:

Places like Sittingbourne, Dartford, and even Maidstone - got money thrown at them during the Labour years. Not so Medway alas. We’ve got this daft isolated “Medway City Estate” that is a lobster pot for getting in and out of by road, and plenty of firms are already struggling for this poorly-thought-out white elephant of an industrial estate that it is, busy with “Boy Racer” crime by night and all. :frowning:

The recently vacated seat of Richmond is now going to be contested apparently by a re-standing Zac Goldsmith as an Independent, only for the Tories to “hand it to him” by not fielding their own new Tory candidate. This comes as a bit of a surprise, bearing in mind a Hatstand wearing a blue rosette would win a comfortable majority for the Tories here, even against Zac “All the poker circuit want to play me” Goldsmith.

i work all around heathrow and i hope to move to cornwall before all this starts the traffic is bad enough at the minute,

truckman020:
700 houses/buildings to be demolished and harmondsworth /sipson villages to disappear,its not right,i don’t live in the area but used to live in Kingston upon thames and worked in that area [heathrow]those 2 villages are as far as I know hundreds of years old,but as usual wealthy people and money talk, I guess saxon way ind estate will go as well.

In the case of the areas around Kingston it’s more an issue of pressure for housing development in the green belt.While both Gatwick and Heathrow create traffic and transport issues which are likely to lead to yet more fields going under new roads and rail links.Such as plans to put in an Oxshott by pass for rat running traffic trying to avoid the M25.While Middx has already virtually been wiped out by the combination of Heathrow and expansion of London with Surrey facing a similar fate if the focus moves to Gatwick.

The fact is the whole area around and between Heathrow and Gatwick is on the edge of no longer being habitable with a reasonable quality of life.With either Gatwick and/or Heathrow expansion likely to push it over that point.

All to satisfy a load of NIMBY hypocrites in the North etc who don’t want anything like even the existing levels of development that we’ve already put up with here.While at the same time them moaning about too much economic growth being concentrated in this small part of the country. :imp: :unamused:

Winseer:
The recently vacated seat of Richmond is now going to be contested apparently by a re-standing Zac Goldsmith as an Independent, only for the Tories to “hand it to him” by not fielding their own new Tory candidate. This comes as a bit of a surprise, bearing in mind a Hatstand wearing a blue rosette would win a comfortable majority for the Tories here, even against Zac “All the poker circuit want to play me” Goldsmith.

How does being kicked in the teeth by Cameron and now May’s lies not lead to a majority for Zac who’s had the bottle to support his electorate not his party. :confused:

As for the LibDems we’ve got opportunist Farron supposedly standing against Heathrow expansion but telling the electorate to vote for his bunch of zb wits on the basis that it’s actually all about a referendum on Brexit not Heathrow.So a Northern MP trying overturn what was rightly a national EU referendum vote, on the basis of a local issue which only the local electorate should be allowed to decide.While claiming that the LibDems are all about local democracy.You couldn’t make it up.

I thought the Isle of grain was the best idea. Plenty of room not disturbing to much add in a high speed rail line that could possibly use some of euros tars line from ebsfleet to St pancrass
I guess what stops it is the A2 in to London and Blackwall tunnel is a nightmare as it is.
The powers that be will always favour Heathrow as the Heathrow express can have you in Euston quick and even by road it is much quicker than Gatwick or grain ever will be to central London.

You’d have thought they’d do more in the midlands seeing as it’s really the heart of country.

Gove’s damage in sabotaging Boris’ bid to be PM instead of May - is the real reason that Grain has been dropped now. I would imagine that Tollhurts (MP for Grain) has as much chance of sitting down first in “her” seat at the next election - as a deaf kid playing musical chairs. The vast majority of her own constituents want “more” (Jobs, regeneration, investment) and only a few want “Less” (Nimbys, hard-core Tory voters, Listed Building owners)

Mind you, it has to be said that even if Tollhurst loses the seat - Mark Reckless is hardly going to win it back by pandering to the Hoo nimbys - meaning you can’t, in the end, get a ■■■ paper between the two!

Perhaps a brand new shiny Labour candidate who’s dead in favour of regenerating the entire region then?

Sometimes even I imagine possibilities where I could at some point in the future “Vote Labour” myself. :blush:

The south east around Heathrow is intolerable. I sometimes wonder if London will just pop one day, with adding feeder routes such as the high speed rail into the area. The M25 can’t cope with current levels.

I personally think Grain would’ve been a good compromise but commercially it’s less desirable as it’s out in the sticks and half its catchment area is sea. I think due to the large amount of London-centric tourism and commerce London will always be first apple, but it’s at capacity. I think they’re mad to squeeze an extra runway into Heathrow. The road network makes that capacity useless.

There is already capacity oop North, the current ones are under used which shows the relative lack of interest. The government doesn’t seem interested oop North either in these facilities so I wonder if that has an effect.

I do wish the government participated in a change of emphasis away from London to stick money into some sort of tri-venture like Birmingham, Manchester and EMA and actively encouraged spreading out the long haul load. With good motorway network links, the rail investment, the North has a lot to offer. EMA would need an actual railway link to start with (it has a man on a donkey who takes you to some sort of wooden shed I think)

JaxDemon:
You’d have thought they’d do more in the midlands seeing as it’s really the heart of country.

Likewise you’d have thought building the national football stadium in the midlands would’ve been sensible too

Nobody has mentioned the old Raf air base in Lynham, which is no longer operating as an airport .
The location would have been ideal for holiday makers and business users, being half way on the M4 between Bristol and London .

How can an Heathrow (with however many runways) expect to compete with other major hub airports when it has a night time flying curfew?

peirre:

JaxDemon:
You’d have thought they’d do more in the midlands seeing as it’s really the heart of country.

Likewise you’d have thought building the national football stadium in the midlands would’ve been sensible too

Make it easier to get to for everyone lol

Freight Dog:
I do wish the government participated in a change of emphasis away from London to stick money into some sort of tri-venture like Birmingham, Manchester and EMA and actively encouraged spreading out the long haul load. With good motorway network links, the rail investment, the North has a lot to offer. EMA would need an actual railway link to start with (it has a man on a donkey who takes you to some sort of wooden shed I think)

Anyone with any common sense can understand that airport capacity needs to be spread around the country rather than all being concentrated in the South East just on an air traffic control and accident/damage probability point of view.In addition to quality of life issues for residents and local over loading of transport infrastructure.It seems clear that we’re being lumbered with such stupidity because of the hypocritical NIMBY attitudes which apply in the regions.As for rail links realistically airports are more about private and commercial road traffic than public transport rail provision.To the point where we’ve got huge areas dedicated to short and long term car parking facilities for people travelling to Heathrow and Gatwick from all over the country when they already have,or potentially have,regional airport provision closer to home.With East Midlands,Birmingham and Manchester all at least having access to existing and easily up gradable national rail links in that regard anyway.

Derf:
How can an Heathrow (with however many runways) expect to compete with other major hub airports when it has a night time flying curfew?

The fact is airports can’t compete on the basis of who is willing to be the worst neighbour for residents living within their flight paths. :bulb: Heathrow’s so called ‘curfew’ having long been a token gesture when compared with these examples.On that note don’t let the local airport employment interests propaganda fool anyone as to historic levels of local hatred for Heathrow’s anti social location and its behaviour.Regarding its sense of entitlement to do as it wants regards expansion and resulting imposition of blight.Gatwick’s obvious intentions locally can also be added to that.

thelocal.de/20120404/41751

flightglobal.com/news/articl … nes-10742/

While if it’s supposedly all about competition between airports for business that obviously raises the question of the lie that we don’t have enough existing airport ‘capacity’.

This new runway looks like it’s going to some business yards, including that incinerator plant at very least. There are some “other” depots underneath the proposed runway that somehow is going to get across the M25 without “making a tunnel” or “closing the M25 for months”. Hmm. Can’t see how THAT is going to be done!

Everyone off at 14 and back on at M4 Langley when those two back roads ALSO get ripped up by the proposed new runway?

In this idea, the runway is just a bridge rather than a tunnel across the motorway. That, in theory could be put up overnight as are “other” motorway bridges

BUT
What happens when the first plan misses the runway and crashes into traffic during the teatime “Heathrow Stack” rush hour? :question:

Carryfast:
.As for rail links realistically airports are more about private and commercial road traffic than public transport rail provision.To the point where we’ve got huge areas dedicated to short and long term car parking facilities for people travelling to Heathrow and Gatwick from all over the country when they already have,or potentially have,regional airport provision closer to home…

Airports are dependant on roads for customers absolutely, but I wouldn’t say “more about” roads than rail. Certainly with long haul serviced airports. It’s all a case of understanding the demographic that uses certain types of airport. Large, prime Long haul and short haul mix airports that are being discussed regarding investment need a variety of links to match their customer base.

Most prime long haul airports have rail link to the adjacent city. Gatwick, Manchester, Birmingham, Heathrow. For instance lot of passengers into Heathrow never see a car, or have no intention to see a car and forcing them onto the roads in hire cars will deter a certain demographic from using that airport for anything other than a flight connection to somewhere else. The fact the M25 is prime for bursting makes those that equally do use a car (me) have a miserable journey.

The regional airports such as EMA, Doncaster and such tend not to have rail link being primarily short haul and as such more UK residing customer focused and therefore people with cars. large airports need a variety of transport links to be competitive.

You’re right about NIMBYs. Throw a stick in this country and you hit a nimby :laughing: . I understand if someone moved to the twigs and Boris built a runway next to them but I’ve less sympathy if you buy your house on the noise footprint of an airport

Freight Dog:

Carryfast:
.As for rail links realistically airports are more about private and commercial road traffic than public transport rail provision.To the point where we’ve got huge areas dedicated to short and long term car parking facilities for people travelling to Heathrow and Gatwick from all over the country when they already have,or potentially have,regional airport provision closer to home…

Airports are dependant on roads for customers absolutely, but I wouldn’t say “more about” roads than rail. Certainly with long haul serviced airports. It’s all a case of understanding the demographic that uses certain types of airport. Large, prime Long haul and short haul mix airports that are being discussed regarding investment need a variety of links to match their customer base.

Most prime long haul airports have rail link to the adjacent city. Gatwick, Manchester, Birmingham, Heathrow. For instance lot of passengers into Heathrow never see a car, or have no intention to see a car and forcing them onto the roads in hire cars will deter a certain demographic from using that airport for anything other than a flight connection to somewhere else. The fact the M25 is prime for bursting makes those that equally do use a car (me) have a miserable journey.

The regional airports such as EMA, Doncaster and such tend not to have rail link being primarily short haul and as such more UK residing customer focused and therefore people with cars. large airports need a variety of transport links to be competitive.

You’re right about NIMBYs. Throw a stick in this country and you hit a nimby :laughing: . I understand if someone moved to the twigs and Boris built a runway next to them but I’ve less sympathy if you buy your house on the noise footprint of an airport

Firstly I’d guess that a large amount of all types of passengers using Gatwick or Heathrow use roads for their transfers like taxis or hire cars then added to by those using short or long term parking facilities for their own private transport.Having to haul luggage around between public transport provision door to door being a big deterrent regards trains in that regard.IE the choice of train v taxi or private or hire car,for civilised convenient transfers door to door from airport terminal to/from London or other parts of the country,is a no brainer.All that combined with commuter traffic associated with airport workers of all types.Which as you’ve said in large part explains why the M25 and M4 are often such a traffic clogged nightmare there.

As for Nimby’s enlargement of Heathrow and/or Gatwick will obviously result in a bigger and/or worse level of blight than that that exists now.On that note people in the surrounding areas obviously based/base their decision to live/stay there on those ‘existing’ levels not more.Bearing in mind that the ‘existing’ blight in question is at the limits of what is reasonable and acceptable in terms of quality of life without it resulting in a massive exodus and property price crash.Which I’d guess is the justified position of at least Zac Goldsmith’s constituency and those in the firing line if the focus shifts to Gatwick.In addition to the knock on effects of added demand for infrastructure and development demands in the Green Belt areas further out and between the two airports.Let alone,as in this case,those who will be subject to the total destruction of reasonably habitable environments to make way for the increased runway/airport provision.

While Nimby’s in this case obviously means those living around regional airports who don’t want to accept growth to the ‘existing’ levels which apply around/between Gatwick and Heathrow.Which is also a fair accusation regarding many other types of development around the country whether infrastructure or housing.

Why do people want to pay £500,000 for a three bedroomed semi in the Heathrow area - if they were not totally OK with “having aircraft noise” all the time?
How can anyone argue “Property Blight” when there are no end of idiots to continue paying such prices for bog-standard properties in the area?

Made me laugh when the anouncement was made, because some joker from Whitehall said on tv that the whole of the UK would benefit from the expansion.

Really?

So how will wee Jock McTavish or Geordie Jim benefit from it?

As usual, ■■■■ the North and let the South benefit again in this two tier country.

Ken.

Carryfast:
On that note people in the surrounding areas obviously based/base their decision to live/stay there on those ‘existing’ levels not more.

An interesting thing you mention there. Given air travel has risen constantly, at what snap shot point did they make that decision on existing levels I wonder. If someone still living in East Windsor today bought their house in 1949 when Heath Row was just another place with small aircraft, I could understand that. Winge away.

But if anyone after 1967 and the explosion of wide body mass transport made a house buying decision on “existing levels” , well that’s a bit naive :laughing:

It doesnt matter, it won’t happen anyway. The foreign secretary is going to lie in front of the diggers