Extra hour on duty!

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
look all i am saying is that under the regs a rest is not work and therefore can not be count as part of you duty, shift, working day, what ever you want to call it

if you firm pays you all well and good

can we agree on one think a rest is not counted for duty

but a brake is

No, we can agree work rest isn’t work but it can be part of your shift/duty

delboytwo:
thats all i asking for i am not hard work

Oh you are.

delboytwo:
s just that for some unknown reason you seam to thing that drivers get paid for all hours worked

Where did I say that?

delboytwo:
it mite be in you case and good for you but not all drivers are payed by the hour there payed day rate

Doesn’t matter how you get paid. Say I meet you on the road and in conversation I tell you I am on a flat rate of £100 a day and yesterday I started work at 06:00 and finished at 21:00. How long was I at work yesterday, or if you like how long was my duty time, or if you like how long was my shift?

delboytwo:
and as said its not about pay its about how may hours you work in that day

It is indeed and the answer to the above, whichever way the question is worded, is 15 hours. Doesn’t matter what I did in each of those hours, drove, worked, took a break, booked POA or rested the answer is I was at work for 15 hours, which is a 15 hour shift, and just about everybody in transport, or any industry come to that regard the time between starting work and finishing work for the day as the length of their shift.

You hear of junior doctors doing 30 hour shifts. Are they ‘working’ for each of those 30 hours? No, sometimes, if they are lucky, they actually go to bed and sleep for a while but ask any one of them as they come out the hospital to go home how long their shift was they will say 30 hours.

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
just like to add this about the ferry the bit underine is the bit i found what you stance on that bit Neil

A regular daily rest period may be interrupted no more than twice, but the total interruption must not
exceed 1 hour in total. This allows for a vehicle to be driven onto a ferry and off at the end of a sea
crossing. Where the rest period is interrupted in this way, the total ■■■■■■■■■ rest period must still
be 11 hours. A bunk or couchette must be available during the rest period.

What’s my stance in what sense. I am fully aware of the regulations on interrupted rest, I should be I’ve taken advantage of it enough times, but you are doing a ROG again. We are talking about Split Daily Rest and you are cutting and pasting stuff about Interrupted Daily Rest. They are two different things, and did you notice what I did there? I used ROG style different colours to emphasise the fact they are different. Interrupted daily rest all takes place after your shift/duty has finished and isn’t relevant to this discussion. Anyway. as I said in an earlier post I don’t use interrupted daily rest on the Dublin run, I can’t as my hours don’t comply with the requirements as the interruption(s) would be more than 1 hour. I only mentioned it to explain you were wrong when you posted earlier you can’t take rest on a ferry, saying you aren’t free to dispose of your time while onboard. Obviously because of the stuff you quoted you can indeed take rest on a ferry.

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
just like to add this about the ferry the bit underine is the bit i found what you stance on that bit Neil

A regular daily rest period may be interrupted no more than twice, but the total interruption must not
exceed 1 hour in total. This allows for a vehicle to be driven onto a ferry and off at the end of a sea
crossing. Where the rest period is interrupted in this way, the total ■■■■■■■■■ rest period must still
be 11 hours. A bunk or couchette must be available during the rest period.

What’s my stance in what sense. I am fully aware of the regulations on interrupted rest, I should be I’ve taken advantage of it enough times, but you are doing a ROG again. We are talking about Split Daily Rest and you are cutting and pasting stuff about Interrupted Daily Rest. They are two different things, and did you notice what I did there? I used ROG style different colours to emphasise the fact they are different. Interrupted daily rest all takes place after your shift/duty has finished and isn’t relevant to this discussion. Anyway. as I said in an earlier post I don’t use interrupted daily rest on the Dublin run, I can’t as my hours don’t comply with the requirements as the interruption(s) would be more than 1 hour. I only mentioned it to explain you were wrong when you posted earlier you can’t take rest on a ferry, saying you aren’t free to dispose of your time while onboard. Obviously because of the stuff you quoted you can indeed take rest on a ferry.

can i ask you this when on the ferry do you put your tacho on ferry mode

[delboytwo]

there is no such rest as an Interrupted Daily Rest in the regs

there is only 3 types of rest

• a regular daily rest period of at least 11 hours; or
• a split daily rest period of at least 12 hours; or
• if entitled, a reduced daily rest period of at least 9 hours.

look why you are on the ferry and you take a rest that rest is not work it mite be for you work but under the regs its a rest and part of a split rest and when you take the 9 hour rest you have completed 12 hours rest under the regs so in fact you duty time is 12 hours not 15 hour but as you say your firm pays you for that that fine but please take away the money side of how and why your company pays you.

A regular daily rest period may be interrupted no more than twice, but the total interruption must not
exceed 1 hour in total. This allows for a vehicle to be driven onto a ferry and off at the end of a sea
crossing. Where the rest period is interrupted in this way, the total ■■■■■■■■■ rest period must still
be 11 hours. A bunk or couchette must be available during the rest period

i know there is a word in there that says you can interrupted or interruption but that all it is a word to define what you do its still a regualer rest it just a way of saying you can move the truck of the ferry and on the ferry without be done

and if you book a 3 hour rest on the ferry do you have access to a bunk or couchette so you can take the rest and not a brake

[delboytwo]

lets ask you this you firm as a digi tacho analyzer ask him this when you book a split rest for that day how does in show it does it show that you had a duty of 15 hour or 12 hour or will it say you have had a rest of 12 hours you timesheet mite and does say you have done a 15 hour duty but that for WTD/RTD and of course for payment of wages

how you are pay and for what as noting to do with tacho regs rest is rest and that’s that

you can have a 9 hour rest in 24 a 11 hour in 24 and a 12 hour rest in 24

[tachograph]

delboytwo:
there is no such rest as an Interrupted Daily Rest in the regs

there is only 3 types of rest

• a regular daily rest period of at least 11 hours; or
• a split daily rest period of at least 12 hours; or
• if entitled, a reduced daily rest period of at least 9 hours.

There is an interrupted daily rest Del, in fact you’ve quoted the relevant article yourself in this thread

If you’re travelling by train or ferry and have access to a bunk or couchette you can interrupt the regular daily rest period twice as long as the total time of the interruption is no more than one hour, the total rest period excluding the interruptions should be at least 11 hours.

This allows drivers to interrupt their daily rest to get on or off the train or ferry and get to or from a parking place.

Article 9.1 - REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006:

1. By way of derogation from Article 8, where a driver
   accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train,
   and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be
   interrupted not more than twice by other activities not
   exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest
   period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette.

[delboytwo]

hi tachograph

yes i know it says that but can i ask you this can you book a the 3 hour split rest on a ferry

[tachograph]

delboytwo:
hi tachograph

yes i know it says that but can i ask you this can you book a the 3 hour split rest on a ferry

Yes.

I can see no reason why you couldn’t book a 3 hour rest whilst on a train or ferry and it could count as the first part of a split daily rest, as you know you would then need to have another 9 hours rest within the 24 hour period from start of shift making a total spread-over of 15 hours.

Many people will define the word “shift” as the time from the start of the daily working time to the end of the daily working time, whilst some people will see a “shift” as actual working time, this is why I prefer to use the term “spread-over” for the time from the start to the end of the daily working time, I think it leaves less room for argument

The term “shift” is what started this disagreement if anyone remembers

[delboytwo]

tachograph:

delboytwo:
hi tachograph

yes i know it says that but can i ask you this can you book a the 3 hour split rest on a ferry

Yes.

I can see no reason why you couldn’t book a 3 hour rest whilst on a train or ferry and it could count as the first part of a split daily rest, as you know you would then need to have another 9 hours rest within the 24 hour period from start of shift making a total spread-over of 15 hours.

Many people will define the word “shift” as the time from the start of the daily working time to the end of the daily working time, whilst some people will see a “shift” as actual working time, this is why I prefer to use the term “spread-over” for the time from the start to the end of the daily working time, I think it leaves less room for argument

The term “shift” is what started this disagreement if anyone remembers

ok lets use this term then 24 hour period

in a 24 hour period you can take a 11 hour regular rest or a 9 hour reduced rest or a 12 hour split rest of which can be split in to two part and the first part must be 3 hours followed by a 9 hour rest

based on the above you in fact would have a possible working period in that 24 hour period of 15 hours 13 hours or 12 hours

IE 10 hours drive 1.30 hours brake and 3.5 hours other work 9 hour rest
IE 9 hours drive 45 mins brake and 3.15 hour other work 11 hours rest
IE 9 hours drive 45 mins brake and 2.15 hour other work 3 hour rest and a 9 hour rest

ask you this if you book 15 hours work for WTD but in that day you did a split rest under EU regs how many hours are left in the 24 hour period for duty, work, or what ever you what to call it

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
can i ask you this when on the ferry do you put your tacho on ferry mode

No, I don’t use ferry mode as my times don’t fit with the interrupted rest requirements. When on a ferry or train I switch it to break/rest, the bed symbol.

The ferry mode on a digital tacho is not for recording the time on the ferry, it is for explaining the interruption. You are sitting on the dock with the mode on rest while you wait for boarding to begin. When it does you select ferry mode and move onto the vessel, at which point the mode changes to driving and records a such. Once on board you select rest mode again. Just before disembarkation you select ferry mode again and when the tacho will then record driving and other work as you disembark. When you park up you select rest again to finish your rest period. If you look at a print out you will see a little symbol denoting when you selected ferry mode and that explains the interruption(s) to the rest period.

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
there is no such rest as an Interrupted Daily Rest in the regs

Yes there is, an Interrupted Regular Daily Rest period, you quoted the relevant piece of the regulations, in fact you’ve just quoted it again in this post.

delboytwo:
look why you are on the ferry and you take a rest that rest is not work

I never at any point said it was. I also don’t count breaks as work but they sure as hell are part of my shift.

delboytwo:
and if you book a 3 hour rest on the ferry do you have access to a bunk or couchette so you can take the rest and not a brake

Yes of course, on that crossing drivers get cabins with bunk beds.

[tachograph]

delboytwo:
ask you this if you book 15 hours work for WTD but in that day you did a split rest under EU regs how many hours are left in the 24 hour period for duty, work, or what ever you what to call it

By “15 hours work” I assume you mean 15 hours duty time in which case you couldn’t have a split daily rest as it only leaves 9 hours for a reduced daily rest

On the other hand if you had a split daily rest which would mean you’d done no more than 12 hours duty time, why would you book 15 hours working time for the WTD

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
there is no such rest as an Interrupted Daily Rest in the regs

Yes there is, an Interrupted Regular Daily Rest period, you quoted the relevant piece of the regulations, in fact you’ve just quoted it again in this post.

delboytwo:
look why you are on the ferry and you take a rest that rest is not work

I never at any point said it was. I also don’t count breaks as work but they sure as hell are part of my shift.

delboytwo:
and if you book a 3 hour rest on the ferry do you have access to a bunk or couchette so you can take the rest and not a brake

Yes of course, on that crossing drivers get cabins with bunk beds.

the is no such thing as it and i ask you to show me where it does say in there, its a term for you to use to move the truck on and of the ferry its not a rest its a term to explain how you may show that you have moved the truck and why cos you on the ferry

1. By way of derogation from Article 8, where a driver
   accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train,
   and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be
   interrupted not more than twice by other activities not
   exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest
   period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette

the bit in red you can Interrupt you regular rest it dos not call it a Interrupted Daily Rest

[starfighter]

Even I understand this one Del. Face it mate if I start work at 1200 and finish at 0300 I would say that I had been at work for 15 hours and i would say the same whether I was having a three hour rest in the middle of the shift followed by a nine hour rest after it or just having a nine hour reduced rest at the end of it. Regardless of what sort of rest I had DHL would pay me for 15 hours. And our timesheets have boxes on them to fill in POA and Breaks/rest/whatever you want to call it. It drives me scatty at times because I have to keep two different totals on the go, In the first instance it would be 10.5 hours (WTD) and 15 hours (DHL banked hours) and the second 13.5 hours (WTD) and 15 hours (DHL banked hours). In both cases I would be paid for 15 hours and would say I had done a 15 hour shift.

[starfighter]

tachograph:

delboytwo:
ask you this if you book 15 hours work for WTD but in that day you did a split rest under EU regs how many hours are left in the 24 hour period for duty, work, or what ever you what to call it

By “15 hours work” I assume you mean 15 hours duty time in which case you couldn’t have a split daily rest as it only leaves 9 hours for a reduced daily rest

On the other hand if you had a split daily rest which would mean you’d done no more than 12 hours duty time, why would you book 15 hours working time for the WTD

As I see it he wouldn’t be booking 15 hours working time but he would be claiming 15 hours pay from his employer as his T’s&C’s require he be paid for the portion of split daily rest that’s undertaken whilst in/with the vehicle.

[delboytwo]

tachograph:

delboytwo:
ask you this if you book 15 hours work for WTD but in that day you did a split rest under EU regs how many hours are left in the 24 hour period for duty, work, or what ever you what to call it

By “15 hours work” I assume you mean 15 hours duty time in which case you couldn’t have a split daily rest as it only leaves 9 hours for a reduced daily rest

On the other hand if you had a split daily rest which would mean you’d done no more than 12 hours duty time, why would you book 15 hours working time for the WTD

Well done mate

why would you co as Neil as said in is posts he gets paid for the rest in a split rest day and count it as work rest and books 14 hour but in that 14 hours he as had a split rest but in fact he as only done 10 hours duty cos he takes a 4 hour rest

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
lets ask you this you firm as a digi tacho analyzer ask him this when you book a split rest for that day how does in show it does it show that you had a duty of 15 hour or 12 hour or will it say you have had a rest of 12 hours you timesheet mite and does say you have done a 15 hour duty but that for WTD/RTD and of course for payment of wages.

OK, using a return trip from Dublin it would show as this.

Begin shift at 05:00
Parked in port with tacho on Break by 06:00 latest.
End break and move onto ferry about 07:30
Tacho on Rest
Disembark at just after 11:45 having had around 4 hours - 4 hours 15 minutes of Rest.
Drive back to the yard, doing a trailer swap on the way and taking another break of about an hour and arrive back at depot at about 19:00
End shift 19:15. That is the end of the shift I started at 05:00 that morning.
Rest period
Start next shift at 05:00
My time sheet and my tacho record shows, I stared at 05:00 and finished at 19:15. Those are the times on the analysis report as start of duty and end of duty when we get them to sign. If I was still on analogue those are the times the EDR and SDR lines would be drawn, there wouldn’t be extra lines drawn at 07:30 and 11:45. Duty, shift, spreadover all ways of saying the same thing, the time between ending one daily rest period and beginning the next.

My 24 hour period will show I have had around 2.5 hours of break, 14 hours of rest and 7.5 hours of driving and other work.

You an I take the word shift to mean different things and neither of us are going to change that. I take it to mean what the majority of people who work do, the time between arriving at work and going home and you take it to mean only actual work.

Neither of us is wrong, neither of us is right it just you say tomato and I say tomato. ■■■■ that doesn’t work written down.

[delboytwo]

tofer:
Even I understand this one Del. Face it mate if I start work at 1200 and finish at 0300 I would say that I had been at work for 15 hours and i would say the same whether I was having a three hour rest in the middle of the shift followed by a nine hour rest after it or just having a nine hour reduced rest at the end of it. Regardless of what sort of rest I had DHL would pay me for 15 hours. And our timesheets have boxes on them to fill in POA and Breaks/rest/whatever you want to call it. It drives me scatty at times because I have to keep two different totals on the go, In the first instance it would be 10.5 hours (WTD) and 15 hours (DHL banked hours) and the second 13.5 hours (WTD) and 15 hours (DHL banked hours). In both cases I would be paid for 15 hours and would say I had done a 15 hour shift.

yes i understand that but i am not on about pay and how you are paid and by who its the regs in a split rest is rest and therefore not work and therefore can not be counted as work under EU regs.

how you T&C in your work are laid out is fine ok except that but not taking about pay, taking about duty time, you have in a 24 hour period if you have a split rest is only 12 hour duty

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
the bit in red you can Interrupt you regular rest it dos not call it a Interrupted Daily Rest

OK, it’s you been different again Del. Everybody normally refers to that as an interrupted daily rest, VOSA, tacho analysis, the drivers who use it. Interrupted daily rest, interrupting a regular daily rest, both mean the same thing. If you interrupt your daily rest period you have surely had an interrupted rest period have you not? It’s semantics again.

[coffeeholic]

tofer:
…and would say I had done a 15 hour shift.

Indeed, as does just about every one who works.