Extra hour on duty!

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:

Coffeeholic:

berewic:
Pre 07 rule changes you could work a 16hr shift if you had 4 hrs rest in not more than three breaks,

Two, It was three in total, the last being at least 8 hours.

Hi Neil

with regard the 16 hour shift in the old regs would that actually be a 12 hour shift cos you are using the 4 hours as rest and not brake

and in the new regs if you take a 3 hour rest then a 9 hour rest tin the 24 hours the shift would be a 12 hour shift

To me, and I think to most drivers, a shift is the period from arriving at work (clocking on) until the moment I leave work (clock off) regardless of the various activities during that time. Some weeks I do 6 split daily rest periods, I have to as it is the only way I can legally do 3 Dublin runs in the week and each day I start at 05:00 and clock off at around 19:00. In those 14 hours there will be around 4 hours with the tacho on rest while I am on the ferry and that will go with the 10 hours I will take when I park up for the day to give me my daily rest period, but as far as I am concerned I have been at work from 05:00 - 19:00 and I will have done a shift of 14 hours and I will get paid for those 14 hours.

delboytwo:
for you day to be a 15 hour shift it would be 10 hours driving 1.5 hours brake and 3.5 hours other work

It could be any combination. It could be 1 hours driving, 13 hours other work and 1 hour break, it really doesn’t matter. You clock on, you clock off and the time in between is your shift in most people’s minds.

if you take a split rest is basically like going home and then coming back to work to start a new shift

delboytwo:
I.E 4.5 hours driving 45 Min’s brake 45 Min’s other work 3 hours rest start back 4.5 hours driving 45 min brake 45 Min’s then take 9 hours rest total shift 12 hours

To me, and most drivers that would be a 15 hour shift and that would be the amount of hours I would be booking on my time sheet.

delboytwo:
rest IMHO is not part of your shift in any way cos if it was we would all be doing a 24 hour shift. brake is, POA is, other work is

rest is not part of any of your shift as it is rest

Well you are in the minority in the transport industry then Del, I don’t know any other driver who counts it that way.

Are you saying if you did my week where I do 3 Dublin runs you wouldn’t want paying for the 4 hours on the ferry on each of the 6 days because it’s rest? On second thoughts you better not answer that as the boss might be reading this and give you a job. I’m booking and getting paid for those 24 hours even though it is part of my rest period.

This is really semantics, if you don’t like the term ‘shift’ swap it for ‘at work’, I don’t mind what you call it but I know when I am at work and want paying and when I am not.

Definition of the word shift.

A person’s scheduled period of work, esp. the portion of the day scheduled as a day’s work when a shop, service, office, or industry operates continuously during both the day and night

Tuesday I’m scheduled to go from Hatfield to Belfast and the portion of the day scheduled for me to complete that is from 03:00 until about 17:30. There will be about 4 hours when the mode switch will be on ‘bed’ during that time but as far as I am concerned I’m working a 14.5 hour shift on Tuesday.

When answering tacho questions on here I find it best to try to stick with the generally accepted and understood terms within the industry to try to minimise confusion. Most drivers understand, and use, the term shift to mean the period between starting work after a rest period and finishing for the day. Drivers often ask tacho questions on here and use the term spread over, there is no such term in the regulations but it is understood to mean the time between starting and finishing work and that word could equally be used in this case instead of shift.

[delboytwo]

tachograph:
I agree that the word “shift” generally refers to working time but could it also be applied to paid time ?

The requirement for a rest period is the ability to freely dispose of the time, but as far as I’m aware there’s nothing to say you can’t be paid for it

hi mate

its a general thing not on about whether you book you time as a 15 hour day

its just that if you are on a rest it in not classed as work in any way in the regs and therefore not counted as your shift so why would you be doing in 15 shift, cos in my thinking if you book a 15 hour duty on a time sheet it would be classed as 15 hours duty but if you book that in your shift you took a split rest your duty would be in fact 12 hours not 15 hours, and as time sheets can be look at in the respect of wether or not you tacho tie with you time sheets if you book a 15 hour shift and get payed for it that how much time you did so in fact you use one of you 15 hours, but if you book a 12 hour day and get payed for that as you took a split rest in that day you have therefore not use one of your 15 hour shifts

hope you understand

[delboytwo]

hi Neil

Are you saying if you did my week where I do 3 Dublin runs you wouldn’t want paying for the 4 hours on the ferry on each of the 6 days because it’s rest? On second thoughts you better not answer that as the boss might be reading this and give you a job. I’m booking and getting paid for those 24 hours even though it is part of my rest period.

you are for getting what rest means ‘

rest’ means any uninterrupted period during which a
driver may freely dispose of his time;

and if i am not mistaken you can not take a rest on a ferry of less than 11 hours so in fact that would be counted as a brake and not rest

how your company pays you is there way but its not about pay its about rest, rest is rest no matter how you look at it if you book a rest of 3 hours and then one of 9 hours and you put it on you time sheet that you did that you in fact only worked 12 hours and therefore should only be paid for that, if you get paid for 15 hours that is classed as duty time and therefore would not be a split rest

if you look at this

‘regular daily rest period’ means any period of rest
of at least 11 hours. Alternatively, this regular daily
rest period may be taken in two periods, the first of
which must be an uninterrupted period of at least 3
hours and the second an uninterrupted period of at
least nine hours,

you are repacing your normal daliy rest with a split rest and if i am not mistaken you do not count the 11 hour rest as shift time so why would you count 3 hour as shift time

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
If you book a 15 hour shift and get payed for it that how much time you did so in fact you use one of you 15 hours,

Just to play your game, , one of what 15 hours. No mention of 15 hours any where in the regulations so it is actually a question of whether you have used one of your allowed 9 hour reductions or not.

delboytwo:
but if you book a 12 hour day and get payed for that as you took a split rest in that day you have therefore not use one of your 15 hour shifts

You mean not used one of your reduced daily rests, no such thing as one of your 15 hour shifts, although it is a generally accepted term in the industry, much like when the word shift means teh period between clocking on and off.

I can’t believe you are saying if you started your tacho at 06:00 and finished it at 21:00, with 3 hours of doing nothing between say 13:00 and 16:00, you would only book and accept 12 hours pay, tell me you aren’t saying that please.

[driveroneuk]

berewic:
Can this 3hr rest be broken into several sections. ie 2hrs, then 1hr at a later stage?

Oh, there is something you don’t know.

Question has already been answered before you made this post.

Rog: its because the 3 fits within the 15, like this: start FIF(3)TEEN end.

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
hi Neil

Are you saying if you did my week where I do 3 Dublin runs you wouldn’t want paying for the 4 hours on the ferry on each of the 6 days because it’s rest? On second thoughts you better not answer that as the boss might be reading this and give you a job. I’m booking and getting paid for those 24 hours even though it is part of my rest period.

you are for getting what rest means ‘

rest’ means any uninterrupted period during which a
driver may freely dispose of his time;

I am not forgetting what the definition of rest is and I am freely able to dispose of my time while on the ferry. I eat, sleep, shower, watch TV, read, etc, etc, etc so where does that not meet the requirements?

delboytwo:
and if i am not mistaken you can not take a rest on a ferry of less than 11 hours so in fact that would be counted as a brake and not rest

You are very much mistaken, where does it say that?

Remember the regulations allow you to interrupt your daily rest twice for ferry or train movements. You could arrive in the port, take 3 hours rest, board the ferry and take 4 hours rest, disembark and take another 4 hours rest. the 3 hours and both the 4 hour periods all count toward your daily rest and that is no different to splitting the rest and taking 3 hours on a ferry and 9 hours later, in my case 4 hours on board and 10 later, to avoid using one of your three allowed reductions.

delboytwo:
how your company pays you is there way but its not about pay its about rest, rest is rest no matter how you look at it if you book a rest of 3 hours and then one of 9 hours and you put it on you time sheet that you did that you in fact only worked 12 hours and therefore should only be paid for that,

You have got to be kidding, you are the only person I have ever ‘met’ who wouldn’t expect to be paid for that time.

delboytwo:
if you get paid for 15 hours that is classed as duty time and therefore would not be a split rest

Why would it not be a split rest, there is nothing to say you cannot be paid for rest time. Occasionally we do a run which entails shipping out on Saturday and taking our weekly rest from Saturday evening until Monday morning in Paris and although we don’t do any work what so ever we get paid for the Sunday, but it is still weekly rest.

delboytwo:
if you look at this

‘regular daily rest period’ means any period of rest
of at least 11 hours. Alternatively, this regular daily
rest period may be taken in two periods, the first of
which must be an uninterrupted period of at least 3
hours and the second an uninterrupted period of at
least nine hours,

you are repacing your normal daliy rest with a split rest and if i am not mistaken you do not count the 11 hour rest as shift time so why would you count 3 hour as shift time

Because the 11 hours doesn’t fall in the time between me starting work in the morning and finishing work in the evening, my shift time in other words, but the 3 hours does.

[delboytwo]

Coffeeholic:

delboytwo:
If you book a 15 hour shift and get payed for it that how much time you did so in fact you use one of you 15 hours,

Just to play your game, , one of what 15 hours. No mention of 15 hours any where in the regulations so it is actually a question of whether you have used one of your allowed 9 hour reductions or not.

delboytwo:
but if you book a 12 hour day and get payed for that as you took a split rest in that day you have therefore not use one of your 15 hour shifts

You mean not used one of your reduced daily rests, no such thing as one of your 15 hour shifts, although it is a generally accepted term in the industry, much like when the word shift means teh period between clocking on and off.

I can’t believe you are saying if you started your tacho at 06:00 and finished it at 21:00, with 3 hours of doing nothing between say 13:00 and 16:00, you would only book and accept 12 hours pay, tell me you aren’t saying that please.

hi Neil

i get what you mean about clocking on and off but isn’t that what you are doing you are in fact clocking off work for 3 hours and then you re clock on to start again

its not about pay its about the regs you are only working 12 hour if you take a split rest like is said how your firm pays you is there way

but ask you this if you took a split rest in you work and say that your work was in fact 12 hour but you put 15 hours on you time sheet would that be that your firm is paying you for the rest of 3 hours and as so counting it as a 15 hour shift and if so there was in fact no split rest, time sheets and tachos in some firms are use to verify to what you say on you time sheet

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
but ask you this if you took a split rest in you work and say that your work was in fact 12 hour but you put 15 hours on you time sheet would that be that your firm is paying you for the rest of 3 hours

Nothing wrong with that, nothing says they can’t pay those hours

delboytwo:
and as so counting it as a 15 hour shift and if so there was in fact no split rest,

If you put the tacho on rest and you actually take the rest period you have had the rest period whether you get paid or not.

delboytwo:
time sheets and tachos in some firms are use to verify to what you say on you time sheet

As they are at our place. My time sheet shows I clocked on at 05:00, as does my tacho. My time sheet shows I finished work at the end of my shift at 19:00, as does my tacho. My time sheet shows I started my nest shift at 05:00, as does my tacho. When the records go off to the analysis people, or I get stopped by VOSA in the control just outside Holyhead and they check my digi card, it will show I had a rest period of 4 hours and a rest period of 10 hours on each of the 6 days I worked that week. A split rest every day and I didn’t use any of my three allowed daily rest reductions. I am also WTD compliant because with breaks during the shift I haven’t ‘worked’ more than 8 hours each day so come in under the 48 hour average for the week. They are happy and I am happy because I earned well that week with 6 x 14 hour shifts, and three lots of night out money which I didn’t have to spend any of because the food on the ferry is free… Happy days, I love my job.

[delboytwo]

hi neil

delboytwo wrote:
and if i am not mistaken you can not take a rest on a ferry of less than 11 hours so in fact that would be counted as a brake and not rest
You are very much mistaken, where does it say that?

Remember the regulations allow you to interrupt your daily rest twice for ferry or train movements. You could arrive in the port, take 3 hours rest, board the ferry and take 4 hours rest, disembark and take another 4 hours rest. the 3 hours and both the 4 hour periods all count toward your daily rest and that is no different to splitting the rest and taking 3 hours on a ferry and 9 hours later, in my case 4 hours on board and 10 later, to avoid using one of your three allowed reductions.

if you read this you will see that i am right look at the underlined bit

1. By way of derogation from Article 8, where a driver
   accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train,
   and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be
   interrupted not more than twice by other activities not
   exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest
   period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette.

we are taking about a split rest of 3 hours so if you are on the ferry do you class your time on there as a rest, am not talking about regular rest

what i meant if you where on the ferry you would not be able to count it as a split rest

IE 4 hours drive 45 brake 45 mins other work 15 mins to go on ferry 3 hour rest off ferry drive for 4 hours 3 hours other work 12 hours shift but the rest in this would not be allowed and therefore you would not have done a split rest and if you stopped at 12 hours work you would still be required to take a regular rest or a reduced rest if you have any

[driveroneuk]

delboytwo:
i get what you mean about clocking on and off but isn’t that what you are doing you are in fact clocking off work for 3 hours and then you re clock on to start again

Yes, but as he has not completed a full (or reduced) DAILY rest period in that time, any work done after the 3 hour break attaches to that done before it & is a continuation of it.

[delboytwo]

hi Neil

yes you have a good job but take away about pay and hours booked

in the regs a split rest is 12 hour long and there for not work so you would in fact only work 12

so as to what i asked was there such a thing as a 16 hour shift as rest in the regs is not counted as work

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
if you read this you will see that i am right look at the underlined bit

1. By way of derogation from Article 8, where a driver
   accompanies a vehicle which is transported by ferry or train,
   and takes a regular daily rest period, that period may be
   interrupted not more than twice by other activities not
   exceeding one hour in total. During that regular daily rest
   period the driver shall have access to a bunk or couchette.

we are taking about a split rest of 3 hours

Exactly, we are talking about a split rest and you are quoting the regulations for an interrupted rest, are you ROG in disguise? Two different things and all that quote is saying that you can only interrupt a regular daily rest period, not a split or reduced one. That doesn’t mean you can’t take part of a split or a complete reduced daily rest period on a ferry.

I am taking a split rest and not an interrupted one, mainly due to the fact the period between disembarking and beginning the second part of my split daily rest is more than 1 hour so it can’t qualify as an interrupted rest, coming back from Dublin the gap is about 7 hours in fact.

In an earlier post you said I couldn’t count the time on the ferry as rest as I wasn’t free to dispose of my time and I merely pointed out that I could indeed count it as rest because the regulations allow you to do so. If the regulations allow you to count time on a ferry as part of a interrupted regular rest then that time can also be counted as part of a split rest or if the crossing is long enough even a full or reduced daily rest.

delboytwo:
so if you are on the ferry do you class your time on there as a rest, am not talking about regular rest

Rest, or if it is a shorter crossing such as 90 minutes on the Dover - Calais then it would be break.

delboytwo:
what i meant if you where on the ferry you would not be able to count it as a split rest

If it at least 3 hours you can.

Any length of time on a ferry can be counted as one part of an interrupted rest. A crossing of at least 3 hours can be counted as one part of a split rest period. A crossing of at least 9 hours can be counted as a reduced daily rest period. A crossing of at least 11 hours can be counted as a regular daily rest period.

Anyway all this talk of what is and isn’t rest is off topic for the original point you brought up, what is generally accepted as a shift on the transport world.

[coffeeholic]

Driveroneuk:

delboytwo:
i get what you mean about clocking on and off but isn’t that what you are doing you are in fact clocking off work for 3 hours and then you re clock on to start again

Yes, but as he has not completed a full (or reduced) DAILY rest period in that time, any work done after the 3 hour break attaches to that done before it & is a continuation of it.

Exactly, and that is the way anyone I have ever met in the transport industry regards it. Well at least it was until Del turned up.

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
in the regs a split rest is 12 hour long and there for not work so you would in fact only work 12

Actually I would ‘work’ a lot less than that with breaks, or POA if I booked it, but my shift will still be the time between starting work in the morning and finishing in the evening

delboytwo:
so as to what i asked was there such a thing as a 16 hour shift as rest in the regs is not counted as work

There is no 16 hour shift in the regulations, never has been. There is also no 15, 13 or 12 hour shift in the regulations, no mention of shift, spreadover, or any other commonly accepted terms for the period between starting work and finishing for the day anywhere in the regulations.

[delboytwo]

look i am not been funny here if you book a split rest you are if fact working 12 hours that all i am on about how your company pays you is there way but if you consider something if you do a split rest and you boss pays you for that rest is he breaking the law

1. A transport undertaking shall not give drivers it employs
   or who are put at its disposal any payment, even in the form
   of a bonus or wage supplement, related to distances travelled
   and/or the amount of goods carried if that payment is of such
   a kind as to endanger road safety and/or encourages
   infringement of this Regulation.

Neil it looks like you are on hourly rate when i did tramping i got pay 400 a week that’s it no extra just night out money

and if i did a split rest day i would book it on my time sheet as such it did not matter to the firm as there payed 400 for the week so but as the regs as 12 rest on a split rest

and in fact i went to the pictures and watch a film i you i was at work in theory but that just semantics, all i am getting a cross is that 12 hours rest and 12 hours work is 24 hours and if you book a shift on you time sheet of 15 hour and 12 hour rest that would in fact be 27 hour day, its not how or why there pay you it all about the regs rest is rest and therefore not work if your boss pays you well your one lucky man and i wish i had your job give us his tele number i will did it for 12 hour pay

[delboytwo]

look i will put it this way

if you do a split rest you would have 12 hour rest and there would be 12 hour work left in the 24 hours

so lest say you book duty time of 15 hours and claim a split rest on that day you would have done a 27 hour day and therefore illegal

[driveroneuk]

1. A transport undertaking shall not give drivers it employs
   or who are put at its disposal any payment, even in the form
   of a bonus or wage supplement, related to distances travelled
   and/or the amount of goods carried if that payment is of such
   a kind as to endanger road safety and/or encourages
   infringement of this Regulation.

I also work for a large multi-national blue chip co. I get day rate + bonus, which is earned by klicks traveled + loads done.

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
look i am not been funny here if you book a split rest you are if fact working 12 hours that all i am on about how your company pays you is there way but if you consider something if you do a split rest and you boss pays you for that rest is he breaking the law

No, because the payment is not related to distance travelled or amount of goods carried and he isn’t endangering road safety or encouraging me to infringe the regulations by paying me to do nothing is he? Quite the opposite in fact, if he is going to pay me for doing nothing I’m going to do nothing at every possible opportunity.
[quote="delboytwo"Neil it looks like you are on hourly rate when i did tramping i got pay 400 a week that’s it no extra just night out money

and if i did a split rest day i would book it on my time sheet as such it did not matter to the firm as there payed 400 for the week so but as the regs as 12 rest on a split rest[/quote]
If you get paid a flat £400 regardless of hours worked then the time sheet is surplus to requirements then.

delboytwo:
all i am getting a cross is that 12 hours rest and 12 hours work is 24 hours and if you book a shift on you time sheet of 15 hour and 12 hour rest that would in fact be 27 hour day,

Be cross no more my friend, the problem is now clear. You need new batteries in your calculator. I wouldn’t be booking a 15 hour shift and a 12 hour rest, thereby [zb]ing with the time space continuum and creating 27 hour days. I would book a 15 hour shift containing a 3 hour rest period followed by a 9 hour rest period. 15 + 9 = 24, not 27. In my actual case I book a 14 hour shift containing a 4 hour rest period followed by a 10 hour rest period. 14 + 10 is still 24 so we can sleep easy in our beds tonight.

delboytwo:
its not how or why there pay you it all about the regs rest is rest and therefore not work if your boss pays you well your one lucky man and i wish i had your job give us his tele number i will did it for 12 hour pay

Typical transport mentality. Someone has got the job boxed of nicely and is on a good screw and someone else will come along and [zb] it up by doing the same thing for less money.

[coffeeholic]

delboytwo:
look i will put it this way

if you do a split rest you would have 12 hour rest and there would be 12 hour work left in the 24 hours

Yes, but you aren’t going to be able to work those 12 hours, there is going to have to be at least 45 minutes of non work in the form of break, or a shed load of POA. Duty time, or shift time if you prefer - Oh, hang on you don’t, and work are different things.

delboytwo:
so lest say you book duty time of 15 hours and claim a split rest on that day you would have done a 27 hour day and therefore illegal

The 15 hours of duty/shift contains a 3-hour rest period after which you take a 9 hour rest period. 15 + 9 = 24, sorted and not illegal.

You’re getting to be harder work than ROG and that’s saying something.

[delboytwo]

look all i am saying is that under the regs a rest is not work and therefore can not be count as part of you duty, shift, working day, what ever you want to call it

if you firm pays you all well and good

can we agree on one think a rest is not counted for duty

but a brake is

thats all i asking for i am not hard work is just that for some unknown reason you seam to thing that drivers get paid for all hours worked it mite be in you case and good for you but not all drivers are payed by the hour there payed day rate

and as said its not about pay its about how may hours you work in that day

we can do 3 15 hours days and 3 13 hour days or we can do 6 12 hour days

just like to add this about the ferry the bit underine is the bit i found what you stance on that bit Neil

A regular daily rest period may be interrupted no more than twice, but the total interruption must not
exceed 1 hour in total. This allows for a vehicle to be driven onto a ferry and off at the end of a sea
crossing. Where the rest period is interrupted in this way, the total ■■■■■■■■■ rest period must still
be 11 hours. A bunk or couchette must be available during the rest period.