PaulNowak:
If we’re out of Europe, we can be sold to the USA.Thatch would have loved that
I dont think they could afford it there more ■■■■■■ than us.
Christ Carryfast I swear you just argue for the same of it. As got sub standard council housing yes there been some crap housing and its not all been Looked after but done of the blame lies with the people living in it.
Trellic tower in west Kensington is a 60s concrete brutalist tower block but is a highly desirable place to live where the residents bought the block and looked after it and flats there go for fortunes. It’s sister block in poplar balfron tower which is on the left as you exit the northbound Blackwall tunnel is your standard high rise hell hole. Do its not the buildings fault it’s the residents and to an extent local council.
switchlogic:
Carryfast:
syramax:
as i understand it ,we will get a vote if tories are re-elected, will that happen■■?The answer to that is to vote for UKIP.Simples.
Logic still isn’t your strong point is it old man. UKIP takes votes from the Tories, which will allow Labour into power, thereby ending your dreams of a referendum. If you think Farage has a chance of being the next PM your even more stupid than I thought.
Good post Luke , not because it’s directed at Geoffrey , but because no matter how it might hurt you have to vote for the bigger picture .
Cameron is doing the best of a bad job , anyone of the others at the helm and it would be “thank-you and goodnight Britain”.
IN
Economics: Union worked successfully for the US
Security: We are safer as part of a big strong federation. None of our fellow Europeans have shot at us for three generations
Employment: We have the freedom to just get up and go to any part of the biggest, richest market thw world has ever known
Infrastructure: The EC has funded and advanced countless road and transport improvements
Health and Social: The UK has acted as a model for National health service with a standard that most of EC has now acheived or surpassed. Welfare levels are high throughout the EC
Standardisation: Many things from road signs to heatlh and safety standards are defined by the EC
Culture: The EC encourages protects and supports cultural activities of individual states.
etc
There’s plenty wrong with the EC. We can change it. The Eurozone problems will pass and the Euro will become a huge strong currency avoiding the vulnerability of the (relatively) small Sterling
Euro:
IN
Economics: Union worked successfully for the US
Security: We are safer as part of a big strong federation. None of our fellow Europeans have shot at us for three generations
Employment: We have the freedom to just get up and go to any part of the biggest, richest market thw world has ever known
Infrastructure: The EC has funded and advanced countless road and transport improvements
Health and Social: The UK has acted as a model for National health service with a standard that most of EC has now acheived or surpassed. Welfare levels are high throughout the EC
Standardisation: Many things from road signs to heatlh and safety standards are defined by the EC
Culture: The EC encourages protects and supports cultural activities of individual states.
etcThere’s plenty wrong with the EC. We can change it. The Eurozone problems will pass and the Euro will become a huge strong currency avoiding the vulnerability of the (relatively) small Sterling
Ecconomics: Union worked for the US because there were very few language and traditional barriers.
Security: NATO.
Employment: We could travel more freely before the EU expanded to the East, We can’t travel as freely to Canada, The USA, or Canada as we once could.
Infasructure: Haulage has paid for the road networks of Europe, Not the EU.
Health and social: I agree with that part.
Culture: The EU dictates rules for everyone, No matter what cultural background they have. Same rules for lapland as southern Greece, It’s ridiculous.
I’m still for an OUT vote.
i think the reality of it all is that most people are missing the point. Cameron is just playing a game of cat & mouse. He wants a better deal for Britain from the EU but nothing more than that but to get it has to play a game casting uncertainty of Britain being a part of the EU. I don’t think he has any intention of pulling out really.
Kerbdog:
i think the reality of it all is that most people are missing the point. Cameron is just playing a game of cat & mouse. He wants a better deal for Britain from the EU but nothing more than that but to get it has to play a game casting uncertainty of Britain being a part of the EU. I don’t think he has any intention of pulling out really.
Lukes got it spot on,cameron is promising a eu referendum AFTER the next election to make sure he gets in again,typical tory trick
regards dave.
tachograph:
I would like to see the EU reformed back to it’s original concept of being just for free trade and free passage between the common-market countries, unfortunately that isn’t going to happen so If there was a referendum today I would vote “OUT”.
I have to agree with this… Europe the way It was before the Eastern block joined…
The post-war federal experiment to avoid further European wars has done it’s job 
Now is the time to move back to looking after the nation featuring in this site’s ‘UK’ name - although as a PC caveat, one’s birth/chosen place to live if you’re, eg., friendly, otherwise oppressed, Danish, etc or otherwise want-out of the EU’s strangulation to restore national self determination (respect) 
Meanwhile, the Liberals are yellow for a reason - to capitulate everything that was once proudly British and give it to undemocratic, European federalism with a limply moist handshake 
The Conservatives & Labour are gambling with the blind, tribal loyalties of those still gullible enough to swallow their pre-packaged & heavily loaded, Euro-centric bilge 
This issue really is is so large because the EU commands all the others that political madarins rattle on about every day, eg., from Post Office closures (because an EU diktat demands it), NHS tourism healthcare, school curriculum requirements, disenfranchisation by us at the polls to defence - for which we have a very successful NATO.
Fair minded people and those with a modicum of national pride left still need all support for exposing that the EU ‘King’ is really a naked, undemocratic, bullying, expensive, morale-sapping, bloated loser masquerading under many names unknown to many who is richly paid to effectively wreck us 
But beware, the EU twisted (and often once communist) hierarchy will not capitualte without spending lots of our money ‘convincing’ us that continually jamming our head in a closing door is a good idea
Totally leave eu all its done is open the door for everyman and his dog to come here and screw our economy and wages
Im saying stay in. Those who are saying we should get out because of all the eastern europeans that have come over are deluded and have no understanding of how business works. The british have ■■■■■■ the job sitution up for themselfs!
OUT.
The jobs situation with regard to unwilling workers would be down to unsustainable wage levels in the industry, that were on the up prior to our EE cousins flooding the market.
Kerbdog:
i think the reality of it all is that most people are missing the point. Cameron is just playing a game of cat & mouse. He wants a better deal for Britain from the EU but nothing more than that but to get it has to play a game casting uncertainty of Britain being a part of the EU. I don’t think he has any intention of pulling out really.
i’d go with this, and the fact he wants to get voted back in again next time round.
imagine we did opt out, i’m sure our european neighbours wouldn’t make it hard for the british lorries involved with european haulage
would we go back to having to clear in and out at each border?
I voted OUT
i’d like to see all these people from the eastern block countries returned to where they came from cos that’s what tucked up the jobs market — there was plenty of decently paid work before they all came here and spoilt it for the rest of us. they take out and don’t put anything back…
I’M VOTING UKIP NEXT TIME – AT LEAST THEY KNOW WHAT THE BRITISH PUBLIC WANTS
Goaty:
OUT.The jobs situation with regard to unwilling workers would be down to unsustainable wage levels in the industry
Thats ■■■■■■■■! And is exactly whats wrong with this country, companies dont have this massive pot of money employees think they have and in any case like many other un or semi skilled jobs paying more doesnt normally mean you get a more productive employee.
The westerm psyche has always been about being a more productive consumer rather than worker.
“Pay me more, and in turn I’ll spend more, and support jobs in other areas of the economy.”
Even I am of the same opinion that “I feel more productive earning £500 for 40 hours rather than £600 for 84 hours” after all. I want more pay for less hours as much as everyone else! That’s MORE productive to my HOUSEHOLD, but LESS productive to my EMPLOYER! - They’d like to see an 84 hour week bod taking home less and less after all.
Meanwhile, your house is repossesed, your wife leaves you and takes the kids, and people hassle you all the time - all because they think you are “Loadsamoney” when you in fact have not a pot to ■■■■ in! 
The time for “painful adjustment” has come.
Get with the austerity plan that in time will improve our living standards, because we’ve long since stopped wasting money on crap we can’t afford anymore.
Thrift isn’t about “going to work an hour before you go to bed, and paying pit owner to employ uz” - it’s getting through your life getting what you want out of cash in hand, and not getting into legal, financial, or relationship trouble.
It’s about what you don’t spend, rather than what you earn. It always has been. Lifestyles need to change, not pay & conditions that are already long gone in the format we would have wanted to keep.
I know plenty of people living in the same neighbourhood as me (eg. approx same value housing) who earn more than double what I do, but are racked with unaffordable debts because they can’t give up the waster’s lifestyle that went with their originally high earnings!
Who’s better off? Them for earning double, or me for cutting my overheads by 60% already?
Wages deflation is like poison. You can outrun it with enough determination and constitution. Cut your costs faster than the wages are drooping, and hey presto! You’re real-terms better off when the downturn finally runs itself out.
Any bean counter will tell you that in real terms I’m flying high over the heads of those that think themselves superior, merely based upon their earnings.
“Cutting one’s personal overheads”, unlike getting a well-paid job, is something that ANYONE can choose to do at any time.
It’ll solve a lot more problems than taking the next job going too, even a well-paid one. How much money is going to get wasted on “the new lifestyle choices” that go with the fancy new job that you thought was going to make you rich, or at least pay of the mortgage when you took it?
The situation will not change regarding wages as long as people from ANY country can work in another country but are allowed to be employed from their country of origin thereby paying minimal taxes and almost no social benefits to the country in which they are employed.This is a problem ALL over Europe.We have people up here from who are employed on a ‘‘self employed’’ basis earning less than a local,but as they are self employed they pay minimal contributions to the Swedish state.Theoretically they are responsible for paying any,and all taxes in their country of origin,but as we all know[and a lot of us have done]nothing gets paid so by this means they earn very much more than could be earned under ‘‘normal’’ conditions in their countries of origin.
Only when EU legislation is changed to say '‘yes you can work in another country,BUT the employer MUST pay you exactly the same as a local AND you will pay ALL taxes and benefits in the country in which you work,not the country where you originate from.Thereby contributing to the economy of the country in which you work.’'This will mean that more people are employed because they are competent not because they are cheap and allow the company to make more profit.
Before anyone has a dig,i know this is a pipe dream as the most corrupt people are not the employers but the politicians who make the laws in the first place[after first filling their own pockets].Mike
Euro:
IN
Economics: Union worked successfully for the US
Security: We are safer as part of a big strong federation. None of our fellow Europeans have shot at us for three generations
Employment: We have the freedom to just get up and go to any part of the biggest, richest market thw world has ever known
Infrastructure: The EC has funded and advanced countless road and transport improvements
Health and Social: The UK has acted as a model for National health service with a standard that most of EC has now acheived or surpassed. Welfare levels are high throughout the EC
Standardisation: Many things from road signs to heatlh and safety standards are defined by the EC
Culture: The EC encourages protects and supports cultural activities of individual states.
etcThere’s plenty wrong with the EC. We can change it. The Eurozone problems will pass and the Euro will become a huge strong currency avoiding the vulnerability of the (relatively) small Sterling
Typical Federalist bs of a type which the Tories and LibDems would come out with.I think you’re forgetting that the US federation was built on the basis of killing all of those who disagreed with it.The actual declaration of American independence was for a Confederation of Sovereign States not the Federal zb up which was imposed after the CSA lost the American civil war.
It’s ironic that you ( and the LibDems etc ) seem to think that the lesson of all those casualties,which were sustained by those rebel states,which wanted to leave the union,and were then forced by the union to remain within it,is a positive thing in favour of condemning future generations of Brits to that same possibility assuming they ever decide they want to leave a Federal Europe.The issue of Federalism is one of the unnacceptable faces of America and the fact that the US supported the breakup of the old Yugoslav federation shows the hypocricy of it’s support for Lincoln’s action in the early 1860’s and it’s views regarding Britain leaving what would inevitably end up as a Federal Europe sooner or later.
The reason why many places in the EU have better standards of infrastructure and health care than we do is because of all the transfer of wealth which has taken place over the years from Britain’s economy to the EU.The whole thing is just a commie type wealth redistribution excercise and keeping jobs for the Germans with a few kickbacks to big business here to keep the scam going.
Saaamon:
Goaty:
OUT.The jobs situation with regard to unwilling workers would be down to unsustainable wage levels in the industry
Thats ■■■■■■■■! And is exactly whats wrong with this country, companies dont have this massive pot of money employees think they have and in any case like many other un or semi skilled jobs paying more doesnt normally mean you get a more productive employee.
Really so you’re saying that the growth in the German economy compared to ours over the years wasn’t anything to do with the fact that the Germans understand/understood the princible of Fordism in that growth depends on paying it’s workforce relatively high wages not relatively low ones while there is a limit to what is possible and reasonable in the case of so called ‘productivety’ of British workers.The fact is if British workers weren’t more productive and better engineers than their German competitors you’d be speaking German now and working for a bowl of cabbage soup a day.If you were lucky.
Saaamon:
Goaty:
OUT.The jobs situation with regard to unwilling workers would be down to unsustainable wage levels in the industry
Thats ■■■■■■■■! And is exactly whats wrong with this country, companies dont have this massive pot of money employees think they have and in any case like many other un or semi skilled jobs paying more doesnt normally mean you get a more productive employee.
How’s it ■■■■■■■■ exactly?
I know what’s “left in the pot”. You don’t pay drivers put of your savings you pay them from the costs of doing the job.
It may be a hobby to you pal, but many decent blokes have packed in driving because of the ■■■■ rates/wages caused by the EE eradicating the driver shortage.
While I agree there are lazy ■■■■■■■ in this country, flooding us with EE drivers has IMHO proven a mistake from the perspective of upping the rates/wages and conditions of the uk driver.