I agree with carryfast.
Carryfast:
That says it all.So Thatcher the ‘glorious leader’,who supported EU membership,and then won a battle against her own people,which made them poorer,while making the Germans,Russians,and the Chinese Communist Party better off was a ‘winner’ in your view.Which is why we should all rush out now to vote for another one just like her but who just happens to be ‘a bit’ more Euro sceptic than she was to the point of taking advantage,of the British people’s belated realisation,that the Thatcherite dream has a ‘few’ flaws in it,by now making them think they’ll be better off by putting their trust in him to take us even further into the mire of the global free market economy including obviously keeping all the ties which we have with the EU which benefit big business like the import of cheap labour and continuing the import of EU manufactured goods.All,of course,with the aim of keeping the supply of labour here higher than demand and therefore the average British worker in low wage employment.
But no I’m not saying if only the electorate ‘had’ voted then for someone better than Callaghan and Thatcher in the mid-late 1970’s who’d put the interests of the average worker above those of big business.I’m saying that the electorate actually needs to do so ‘now’ assuming there are any out there ( unlikely ) and assuming that it’s not too late already to even bother ( likely ).
So really, you just want to vent as you can’t actually point to a better way. You could have told us that earlier in the thread and saved us all this to-ing and fro-ing.
And another thing 
, your “average worker” is not the only sector of society that has a vote on these matters and some of us who are not “average workers” may well have different priorities to you and your chums. 
Long live Maggie! Down with the twonks! 
Big Jon’s dad:
Carryfast:
That says it all.So Thatcher the ‘glorious leader’,who supported EU membership,and then won a battle against her own people,which made them poorer,while making the Germans,Russians,and the Chinese Communist Party better off was a ‘winner’ in your view.Which is why we should all rush out now to vote for another one just like her but who just happens to be ‘a bit’ more Euro sceptic than she was to the point of taking advantage,of the British people’s belated realisation,that the Thatcherite dream has a ‘few’ flaws in it,by now making them think they’ll be better off by putting their trust in him to take us even further into the mire of the global free market economy including obviously keeping all the ties which we have with the EU which benefit big business like the import of cheap labour and continuing the import of EU manufactured goods.All,of course,with the aim of keeping the supply of labour here higher than demand and therefore the average British worker in low wage employment.
But no I’m not saying if only the electorate ‘had’ voted then for someone better than Callaghan and Thatcher in the mid-late 1970’s who’d put the interests of the average worker above those of big business.I’m saying that the electorate actually needs to do so ‘now’ assuming there are any out there ( unlikely ) and assuming that it’s not too late already to even bother ( likely ).
So really, you just want to vent as you can’t actually point to a better way. You could have told us that earlier in the thread and saved us all this to-ing and fro-ing.
And another thing
I did point to a better way and that way isn’t the Thatcher way or therefore by association the Farage way.
Everyone knows that there are plenty of people out there who have different ‘priorities’ to the average British ( or American ) worker.Which is why the two country’s economies are in the state which they are in now.But putting Farage into office,to just shift the deck chairs around on the Titanic,which is the UK economy as it’s been since Heath,Wilson, Callaghan and Thatcher and all those who followed them,with a lot of help from big business,zb’d it up,won’t change that.
Carryfast:
‘…I did point to a better way …’
In response to the thread ‘…EUROPE YES OR NO…’ I felt ‘pointed’ to an unachievable and unavailable non-option based largely upon by-gone political values of dead or senile people and a rottweiller approach to an alternative to today’s unsatisfactory & undemocratic Lib-Lab-Con status-quo.
That and over-subjective assumptions that Farage’s ‘soundbite’ quoted political ethos dominates his every independent decision 
Carryfast:
‘…[T]hat way isn’t the Thatcher way or therefore by association the Farage way…’
Maybe re-associate one’s loathing of a democratically elected, female former leader with the only independence focussed option available to Britons in 2013 
Carryfast:
‘…Everyone knows that … British ( or American ) … economies are in the state which they are in now…’
This is a dangerous and misleading assumption upon which to base a carte-blache argument:
Not everyone: Too many still and solely ‘blame the bankers’ - not, eg., societal greed and the lure of endless ‘credit’ by egg-heads on both sides of the Atlantic to, ie., ramp-up ‘their’ [sic] property prices.
Too many among us have failed to own the actions of complacent (and sometimes former) credit-based lifestyles - often fuelled by our zeal as consumers and the often brilliance [sic] of the advertising and media industries whilst the nation still bleeds £53 unspoken million per day to Brussels 
Thatcher didn’t have that very forceful dynamic with which to overly content nor to the extent with which we in the UK are now having to - hopefully democratically manage it.
However, the UK Independence approach not only can contend with it because it is contending with with it - to the obvious discomfort of the Lib-Lab-Consters (and their advocates chipping-in with ‘Thatcherite … whine … Thatcherite’) they are doing so despite against those that blithely but very actively deny the otherwise very manageable realities of being horsed by evil federalism.
Yes ‘horsed’ courtesy of the EU: Not just metaphorically but physically and politically through every orifice
Happy Keith:
Carryfast:
‘…I did point to a better way …’In response to the thread ‘…EUROPE YES OR NO…’ I felt ‘pointed’ to an unachievable and unavailable non-option based largely upon by-gone political values of dead or senile people and a rottweiller approach to an alternative to today’s unsatisfactory & undemocratic Lib-Lab-Con status-quo.
That and over-subjective assumptions that Farage’s ‘soundbite’ quoted political ethos dominates his every independent decision
Carryfast:
‘…[T]hat way isn’t the Thatcher way or therefore by association the Farage way…’Maybe re-associate one’s loathing of a democratically elected, female former leader with the only independence focussed option available to Britons in 2013
Carryfast:
‘…Everyone knows that … British ( or American ) … economies are in the state which they are in now…’This is a dangerous and misleading assumption upon which to base a carte-blache argument:
Not everyone: Too many still and solely ‘blame the bankers’ - not, eg., societal greed and the lure of endless ‘credit’ by egg-heads on both sides of the Atlantic to, ie., ramp-up ‘their’ [sic] property prices.Too many among us have failed to own the actions of complacent (and sometimes former) credit-based lifestyles - often fuelled by our zeal as consumers and the often brilliance [sic] of the advertising and media industries whilst the nation still bleeds £53 unspoken million per day to Brussels
Thatcher didn’t have that very forceful dynamic with which to overly content nor to the extent with which we in the UK are now having to - hopefully democratically manage it.
However, the UK Independence approach not only can contend with it because it is contending with with it - to the obvious discomfort of the Lib-Lab-Consters (and their advocates chipping-in with ‘Thatcherite … whine … Thatcherite’) they are doing so despite against those that blithely but very actively deny the otherwise very manageable realities of being horsed by evil federalism.
Yes ‘horsed’ courtesy of the EU: Not just metaphorically but physically and politically through every orifice
Unless you’re in total denial concerning the actual figures both the British and the US economies are both paying the price of the changes which both Thatcher and Reagan made to our respective economic systems regarding industry,trade unions and resulting wage levels.Excessive use of credit is only a symptom of an underpaid workforce.If you’d have combined credit limits with the low wage economy which we’ve had since de industrialisation and wages lagging behind prices in real trems then by now the economy would probably have collapsed totally.
Yes we’re in agreement that the country is being shafted by the EU.However it’s also being shafted by the global free market economy.Both of whch can be put down to the wishes of big business and it’s supporters like Tatcher to Farage and I’ve seen nothing in Farage’s policies which would change that situation or for that matter amongst those with views like those of yourself.
Carryfast:
Unless you’re in total denial concerning the actual figures both the British and the UK economies are both paying the price of the changes which both Thatcher and Reagan made to our respective economic systems regarding industry,trade unions and resulting wage levels.Excessive use of credit is only a symptom of an underpaid workforce.If you’d have combined credit limits with the low wage economy which we’ve had since de industrialisation and wages lagging behind prices in real trems then by now the economy would probably have collapsed totally.Yes we’re in agreement that the country is being shafted by the EU.However it’s also being shafted by the global free market economy.Both of whch can be put down to the wishes of big business and it’s supporters like Tatcher to Farage and I’ve seen nothing in Farage’s policies which would change that situation or for that matter amongst those with views like those of yourself.
Your problem CF is that you expect everything done for your benefit. There are many people in this country who are not like you. They also have the vote and they chose differently to you.
In my own case, I have zero debts, I own my home outright with no mortgage, I have a business which has 1 employee (me) and I have 3 vehicles on my drive, all bought new and paid for.
I work when I want, for whoever I want, assuming they want me, and I charge whatever I want for my services. You made choices to follow a unionised working life and you are now suffering because of your choices. Instead of bleating about how hard done by you are and how unfair it is, why don’t you get out there and work for yourself. All you need is customers willing to pay you to supply them with some service that they need and are willing to pay for. To succeed you need to be a self starter and have a positive attitude when dealing with customers. Negativity leads to failure as I’m sure you are all too aware Geoffrey.
Big Jon’s dad:
Carryfast:
Unless you’re in total denial concerning the actual figures both the British and the UK economies are both paying the price of the changes which both Thatcher and Reagan made to our respective economic systems regarding industry,trade unions and resulting wage levels.Excessive use of credit is only a symptom of an underpaid workforce.If you’d have combined credit limits with the low wage economy which we’ve had since de industrialisation and wages lagging behind prices in real trems then by now the economy would probably have collapsed totally.Yes we’re in agreement that the country is being shafted by the EU.However it’s also being shafted by the global free market economy.Both of whch can be put down to the wishes of big business and it’s supporters like Tatcher to Farage and I’ve seen nothing in Farage’s policies which would change that situation or for that matter amongst those with views like those of yourself.
Your problem CF is that you expect everything done for your benefit. There are many people in this country who are not like you. They also have the vote and they chose differently to you.
In my own case, I have zero debts, I own my home outright with no mortgage, I have a business which has 1 employee (me) and I have 3 vehicles on my drive, all bought new and paid for.
I work when I want, for whoever I want, assuming they want me, and I charge whatever I want for my services. You made choices to follow a unionised working life and you are now suffering because of your choices. Instead of bleating about how hard done by you are and how unfair it is, why don’t you get out there and work for yourself. All you need is customers willing to pay you to supply them with some service that they need and are willing to pay for. To succeed you need to be a self starter and have a positive attitude when dealing with customers. Negativity leads to failure as I’m sure you are all too aware Geoffrey.
Maybe you can work when you want and charge whatever you want for your services.But that,although you don’t seem to have noticed,unfortunately,isn’t an accurate description of the economy as a whole and it probably wouldn’t even be an accurate description even if the economy was running at an ideal rate.
However it would obviously fit the shopkeeper type mentality which drove/drives people like Thatcher.It’s industry,and the amounts earn’t by those working in it,to spend on goods,made by that industry which determines wether a country can survive in the real world unless the place is floating on a sea of oil like Saudi or Russia.
As for me I’m not aware of any type of situation in which I could have ever worked when I want and charge what I want for doing it wether employed or self employed.But have you ever stopped to think exactly where all that cash actually comes from and what allows those customers to pay you as much as you want to charge.There’s been plenty of people with that same outlook until suddenly the reality hit them that actually every sector of the economy is interdependent on every other,when that customer base ceases to exist over night because the money has run out.Because there’s no way that anyone can earn money without that same money having been earn’t and spent in massive amounts by others for what they do.Which if you go to somewhere like Detroit or Shefffield or Birmingham now,compared to how things were in 1965-72 you’d realise.The fact is strong unionised,well paid,employed workforces,producing loads of stuff for consumption in the domestic market,is what makes the difference between a solvent economy and a broke one.
But what makes you think that it’s not possible for the average employed worker,just as in the case of a self employed one,to be able to afford their own home and the decent car on the driveway all paid for ( eventually ) in a well performing economy run on Fordist lines.It’s that idea,held by many,that such a situation shouldn’t be allowed,which has got the place where it is now. 
Carryfast:
Big Jon’s dad:
Your problem CF is that you expect everything done for your benefit. There are many people in this country who are not like you. They also have the vote and they chose differently to you.
In my own case, I have zero debts, I own my home outright with no mortgage, I have a business which has 1 employee (me) and I have 3 vehicles on my drive, all bought new and paid for.
I work when I want, for whoever I want, assuming they want me, and I charge whatever I want for my services. You made choices to follow a unionised working life and you are now suffering because of your choices. Instead of bleating about how hard done by you are and how unfair it is, why don’t you get out there and work for yourself. All you need is customers willing to pay you to supply them with some service that they need and are willing to pay for. To succeed you need to be a self starter and have a positive attitude when dealing with customers. Negativity leads to failure as I’m sure you are all too aware Geoffrey.Maybe you can work when you want and charge whatever you want for your services.But that,although you don’t seem to have noticed,unfortunately,isn’t an accurate description of the economy as a whole and it probably wouldn’t even be an accurate description even if the economy was running at an ideal rate.
However it would obviously fit the shopkeeper type mentality which drove/drives people like Thatcher.It’s industry,and the amounts earn’t by those working in it,to spend on goods,made by that industry which determines wether a country can survive in the real world unless the place is floating on a sea of oil like Saudi or Russia.
As for me I’m not aware of any type of situation in which I could have ever worked when I want and charge what I want for doing it wether employed or self employed.But have you ever stopped to think exactly where all that cash actually comes from and what allows those customers to pay you as much as you want to charge.There’s been plenty of people with that same outlook until suddenly the reality hit them that actually every sector of the economy is interdependent on every other,when that customer base ceases to exist over night because the money has run out.Because there’s no way that anyone can earn money without that same money having been earn’t and spent in massive amounts by others for what they do.Which if you go to somewhere like Detroit or Shefffield or Birmingham now,compared to how things were in 1965-72 you’d realise.The fact is strong unionised,well paid,employed workforces,producing loads of stuff for consumption in the domestic market,is what makes the difference between a solvent economy and a broke one.
But what makes you think that it’s not possible for the average employed worker,just as in the case of a self employed one,to be able to afford their own home and the decent car on the driveway all paid for ( eventually ) in a well performing economy run on Fordist lines.It’s that idea,held by many,that such a situation shouldn’t be allowed,which has got the place where it is now.
I’m familiar with Birmingham having lived there for a period and having inlaws there now. Detroit funnily enough was a highy unionised car producing city, now a wasteland as most of the population has moved somewhere else to find work. Just like the smart people here. There are jobs available for those people prepared to look for them. They may not be within spitting distance of your house, so you may have to move to get the work. 3 of my kids have moved to Canada because there were better opportunities for them in Canada. (Maybe not fair to mention my kids as they have dual citizenship, like I do).
I am also aware of how unproductive many unionised workers were in Midlands factories, as between 1976 and 1987 I installed and maintained the master clock and time recording equipment, along with the works hooters, in lots of different premises. I started as a trainee service engineer and ended my career as chief engineer, before setting up on my own in a different field, which I still own.
Car factories were often the worst. There were very few workers I would ever have considered offering a job to. The amount of pilferage and damage was staggering, but considered normal. I worked in founderies, coal mines, power stations, potteries, engineering factories, garment manufacturers, abatoirs, egg producers, offices, hospitals, department stores, a couple of places I can’t talk about having signed the Official Secrets Act, and many more places I can’t recall any more. Most of these places have been closed down. A shining example which hasn’t closed is JCB which was always a pleasure to work in.
In my view the old factories and industies were closed down not because of immigrant workers (because immigrants can’t take a job in a premises that has closed down), nor because of cheap imports. The simple fact is that the unions were too greedy and their members offered poor value to the employers. They basicly priced themselves out of the market by over valuing themselves and failing to see the consequences of other sectors of the population not being willing to be held to ransom, as was the case when the strikes were at their peak.
I have now forgiven the Co-op group for providing free food to the striking miners in the town I live in. I refused to shop in the Co-op for years because of their action supporting the strikers.
I can charge more or less what I like as I offer a service that is very hard to find, is needed by my customers, and I do such a good job, cheerfully, that my customers rarely look elsewhere for a similar service.
I have to balance up the desirabilty of increasing my price with losing customers.
Take the National Lottery for example. A ticket is £1.00 at the moment. The price is going up to £2.00 soon. If they lose 30% of their customers, are they better off or worse off than before the price change? Do they care if 30% of their customers stop buying tickets? (If you haven’t worked it out yet, they are 40% better off if they lose 30% of the customers after increasing the ticket price)
As far as I’m aware I am one of only 14 people throughout the UK, Eire and the Channel Islands offering a similar service. My customers do have another choice though, they can buy disposable Chinese crap and replace it often. The equipment I maintain is usually 20 to 40 years old and still working almost as well as it was when it was made and looking almost as good too. Most of it was made in the UK, Italy or Germany. The German stuff is the best quality though. All the UK manufacturers have ceased production now with the last one closing the production line in 2011.
It may surprise you, Geoffrey, to learn that I offer my services to another service industry, the beauty trade. That service industry is not dependant on “high waged” industrial workers. It may further surprise you to learn that there is no shortage of money in some sectors of the economy. The only sector of the economy that is suffering is the lower working class who were dependant on industrial work (and the unemployed who wish to be employed). These people are like dinosaurs and haven’t evolved with changing circumstances. The poor suckers are stuck in the past, like you Geoffrey. What are you going to do to move on from the utopia that never was and likely never will be?
Adapt or Die, Geoffrey.
Big Jon’s dad:
Carryfast:
Big Jon’s dad:
Your problem CF is that you expect everything done for your benefit. There are many people in this country who are not like you. They also have the vote and they chose differently to you.
In my own case, I have zero debts, I own my home outright with no mortgage, I have a business which has 1 employee (me) and I have 3 vehicles on my drive, all bought new and paid for.
I work when I want, for whoever I want, assuming they want me, and I charge whatever I want for my services. You made choices to follow a unionised working life and you are now suffering because of your choices. Instead of bleating about how hard done by you are and how unfair it is, why don’t you get out there and work for yourself. All you need is customers willing to pay you to supply them with some service that they need and are willing to pay for. To succeed you need to be a self starter and have a positive attitude when dealing with customers. Negativity leads to failure as I’m sure you are all too aware Geoffrey.Maybe you can work when you want and charge whatever you want for your services.But that,although you don’t seem to have noticed,unfortunately,isn’t an accurate description of the economy as a whole and it probably wouldn’t even be an accurate description even if the economy was running at an ideal rate.
However it would obviously fit the shopkeeper type mentality which drove/drives people like Thatcher.It’s industry,and the amounts earn’t by those working in it,to spend on goods,made by that industry which determines wether a country can survive in the real world unless the place is floating on a sea of oil like Saudi or Russia.
As for me I’m not aware of any type of situation in which I could have ever worked when I want and charge what I want for doing it wether employed or self employed.But have you ever stopped to think exactly where all that cash actually comes from and what allows those customers to pay you as much as you want to charge.There’s been plenty of people with that same outlook until suddenly the reality hit them that actually every sector of the economy is interdependent on every other,when that customer base ceases to exist over night because the money has run out.Because there’s no way that anyone can earn money without that same money having been earn’t and spent in massive amounts by others for what they do.Which if you go to somewhere like Detroit or Shefffield or Birmingham now,compared to how things were in 1965-72 you’d realise.The fact is strong unionised,well paid,employed workforces,producing loads of stuff for consumption in the domestic market,is what makes the difference between a solvent economy and a broke one.
But what makes you think that it’s not possible for the average employed worker,just as in the case of a self employed one,to be able to afford their own home and the decent car on the driveway all paid for ( eventually ) in a well performing economy run on Fordist lines.It’s that idea,held by many,that such a situation shouldn’t be allowed,which has got the place where it is now.
I’m familiar with Birmingham having lived there for a period and having inlaws there now. Detroit funnily enough was a highy unionised car producing city, now a wasteland as most of the population has moved somewhere else to find work. Just like the smart people here. There are jobs available for those people prepared to look for them. They may not be within spitting distance of your house, so you may have to move to get the work. 3 of my kids have moved to Canada because there were better opportunities for them in Canada. (Maybe not fair to mention my kids as they have dual citizenship, like I do).
I am also aware of how unproductive many unionised workers were in Midlands factories, as between 1976 and 1987 I installed and maintained the master clock and time recording equipment, along with the works hooters, in lots of different premises. I started as a trainee service engineer and ended my career as chief engineer, before setting up on my own in a different field, which I still own.
Car factories were often the worst. There were very few workers I would ever have considered offering a job to. The amount of pilferage and damage was staggering, but considered normal. I worked in founderies, coal mines, power stations, potteries, engineering factories, garment manufacturers, abatoirs, egg producers, offices, hospitals, department stores, a couple of places I can’t talk about having signed the Official Secrets Act, and many more places I can’t recall any more. Most of these places have been closed down. A shining example which hasn’t closed is JCB which was always a pleasure to work in.
In my view the old factories and industies were closed down not because of immigrant workers (because immigrants can’t take a job in a premises that has closed down), nor because of cheap imports. The simple fact is that the unions were too greedy and their members offered poor value to the employers. They basicly priced themselves out of the market by over valuing themselves and failing to see the consequences of other sectors of the population not being willing to be held to ransom, as was the case when the strikes were at their peak.
I have now forgiven the Co-op group for providing free food to the striking miners in the town I live in. I refused to shop in the Co-op for years because of their action supporting the strikers.
I can charge more or less what I like as I offer a service that is very hard to find, is needed by my customers, and I do such a good job, cheerfully, that my customers rarely look elsewhere for a similar service.
I have to balance up the desirabilty of increasing my price with losing customers.
Take the National Lottery for example. A ticket is £1.00 at the moment. The price is going up to £2.00 soon. If they lose 30% of their customers, are they better off or worse off than before the price change? Do they care if 30% of their customers stop buying tickets? (If you haven’t worked it out yet, they are 40% better off if they lose 30% of the customers after increasing the ticket price)As far as I’m aware I am one of only 14 people throughout the UK, Eire and the Channel Islands offering a similar service. My customers do have another choice though, they can buy disposable Chinese crap and replace it often. The equipment I maintain is usually 20 to 40 years old and still working almost as well as it was when it was made and looking almost as good too. Most of it was made in the UK, Italy or Germany. The German stuff is the best quality though. All the UK manufacturers have ceased production now with the last one closing the production line in 2011.
It may surprise you, Geoffrey, to learn that I offer my services to another service industry, the beauty trade. That service industry is not dependant on “high waged” industrial workers. It may further surprise you to learn that there is no shortage of money in some sectors of the economy. The only sector of the economy that is suffering is the lower working class who were dependant on industrial work (and the unemployed who wish to be employed). These people are like dinosaurs and haven’t evolved with changing circumstances. The poor suckers are stuck in the past, like you Geoffrey. What are you going to do to move on from the utopia that never was and likely never will be?
Adapt or Die, Geoffrey.
So what you’re saying is that this country’s economy and the US one is in much better shape now that we’ve wiped out our industries and got rid of those ‘greedy’ unions and replaced their work and over paid wages with imports.
As for German quality that isn’t what those ME 109 pilots said when they found themselves with a Spitfire behind the zb’s. It’s just a shame we didn’t have enough money after the previous little argument to have the Centurion or the Comet in time to sort out the Tiger.Although it took British bottle to sit there while they wiped out four Shermans so the fifth one could get the zb.
Carryfast:
So what you’re saying is that this country’s economy and the US one is in much better shape now that we’ve wiped out our industries and got rid of those ‘greedy’ unions and replaced their work and over paid wages with imports.
No, I said that unionised workers priced themselves too high and that had consequences. A lot of people who were not unionised have not suffered from the demise of those unions and their associated industies. You know, the ones that could adapt to the new circumstanses, rather than die out like the industriaal worker stuck in the 1970’s mindset.
Carryfast:
As for German quality that isn’t what those ME 109 pilots said when they found themselves with a Spitfire behind the zb’s.
FFS first it was 1960 to 1972 now you have to go back to the forties to find an example. No one ever claimed Great Britain didn’t build great products in the past, nor that her fighting forces were not brave. My father was in the British army during WW2. My grandfather, who was born to immigrant German parents in London fought in the British army in WW1 in Salonika. Funnily enough my grandfather (but not so funny for him), was interned in WW2 along with many other people of German ancestory.
If you don’t already know, Shermans M4 tanks were American designed and built tanks (which we had to pay for), and were commonly known as Tommy cookers due to their propensity to brew up when hit. They were preceded by the similar looking Lee Grant which had a sponson mounted main gun and a smaller gun in the turret, giving sterling service in the North Africa campaign. I didn’t have to Google by the way, tanks being another one of my interests. I’m not a stuck record like some people, playing the same wornout tune over and over again.
…
Carryfast:
'…[T]he British and the US economies are both paying the price of…
This is a side issue: It doesn’t address ‘…EUROPE YES OR NO…’
Carryfast:
‘…Excessive use of credit is only a symptom of an underpaid workforce…’
As is a ‘live-now-pay-later’, debt-happy, Lib-Lab-Con & BBC ultra-liberal (meaning ‘who-cares’ - let’s give it away) society
Many Britons are disenchanted through being blanked by outsiders from Europe and disenfranchised/ignored/trod-over by the meekly accepted & arrogant dominance that the EU bullies us with, eg., the sickening realities of the unwanted DCPC and compulsory acceptance to embrace [sic] hand-out grabbing immigrants.
Carryfast:
‘…However it’s also being shafted by the global free market economy…’
Within which - and because of the EU, the UK isn’t properly represented
Britain is no longer in the World Trade Organisation because the UK has to queue up to speak with the world via the EU
How does that benefit the UK in 2013 - about which Thatcher would be - and Farage is livid
Carryfast:
‘… I’ve seen nothing in Farage’s policies which would change that situation or for that matter amongst those with views like those of yourself…’
It is necessary to realise that Thatcher is finished, lessons of failings have been learned by advocates of independence and that we are in 2013 with this thread asking us ‘…EUROPE YES OR NO…’
Big Jon’s dad:
Carryfast:
So what you’re saying is that this country’s economy and the US one is in much better shape now that we’ve wiped out our industries and got rid of those ‘greedy’ unions and replaced their work and over paid wages with imports.No, I said that unionised workers priced themselves too high and that had consequences. A lot of people who were not unionised have not suffered from the demise of those unions and their associated industies. You know, the ones that could adapt to the new circumstanses, rather than die out like the industriaal worker stuck in the 1970’s mindset.
Carryfast:
As for German quality that isn’t what those ME 109 pilots said when they found themselves with a Spitfire behind the zb’s.FFS first it was 1960 to 1972 now you have to go back to the forties to find an example. No one ever claimed Great Britain didn’t build great products in the past, nor that her fighting forces were not brave. My father was in the British army during WW2. My grandfather, who was born to immigrant German parents in London fought in the British army in WW1 in Salonika. Funnily enough my grandfather (but not so funny for him), was interned in WW2 along with many other people of German ancestory.
If you don’t already know, Shermans M4 tanks were American designed and built tanks (which we had to pay for), and were commonly known as Tommy cookers due to their propensity to brew up when hit. They were preceded by the similar looking Lee Grant which had a sponson mounted main gun and a smaller gun in the turret, giving sterling service in the North Africa campaign. I didn’t have to Google by the way, tanks being another one of my interests. I’m not a stuck record like some people, playing the same wornout tune over and over again.
If tanks are one of your interests then you’d know that British engineering skills were still alive and kicking throughout the post war years to date with as I said products like the Comet,Centurion to Challenger 2 not to mention the BL Scammell built Commander transporter.Yes I know all about the Sherman etc being that my father was in the REME during the end of WW2 in Italy employed on tank recovery and transport and my Grandfather fought his way from the beaches of Normandy to Germany so I didn’t really need google or your advice on that subject thanks.Although what I did learn told me that the Grant was worse than useless compared to something like a Sherman Firefly.
However the relevant bit is that we were using sub standard kit because of the previous ‘issues’ with Germany which cost us a fortune previously and the economic policies and resulting defence spending cuts of of the inter war years.Which weren’t a lot different to what you’re saying now.
When as in 1945 what should have happened at Versailles was to remove Germany and it’s industrial competition with us from the map.Problem solved.Although of course that would have upset all the admirers like yourself of German engineering and therefore obviously German workers. Although having said that from the stories I’ve been told actually fighting in tanks isn’t ‘interesting’ at all and given the choice,if I’d have been there,I’d rather have taken taken my chances working with an anti tank gun like the 17 Pounder in the open without the ‘protection’ of any armour thanks.
But no as I’ve said those ‘unionised workers’ didn’t price themselves too high at all.They actually had more sense than to price themselves on a basis of charging whatever they wanted unlike yourself.It was actually those with your views who caused the price led inflation that resulted in the need for continuing wage demands to maintain living standards and spending power in the economy as a whole.Unfortunately for the country and it’s economy it was those with the views like yourself and Thatcher who got their way and the rest is history.
Happy Keith:
Carryfast:
'…[T]he British and the US economies are both paying the price of…This is a side issue: It doesn’t address ‘…EUROPE YES OR NO…’
Carryfast:
‘…Excessive use of credit is only a symptom of an underpaid workforce…’As is a ‘live-now-pay-later’, debt-happy, Lib-Lab-Con & BBC ultra-liberal (meaning ‘who-cares’ - let’s give it away) society
Many Britons are disenchanted through being blanked by outsiders from Europe and disenfranchised/ignored/trod-over by the meekly accepted & arrogant dominance that the EU bullies us with, eg., the sickening realities of the unwanted DCPC and compulsory acceptance to embrace [sic] hand-out grabbing immigrants.
Carryfast:
‘…However it’s also being shafted by the global free market economy…’Within which - and because of the EU, the UK isn’t properly represented
Britain is no longer in the World Trade Organisation because the UK has to queue up to speak with the world via the EU
How does that benefit the UK in 2013 - about which Thatcher would be - and Farage is livid
Carryfast:
‘… I’ve seen nothing in Farage’s policies which would change that situation or for that matter amongst those with views like those of yourself…’It is necessary to realise that Thatcher is finished, lessons of failings have been learned by advocates of independence and that we are in 2013 with this thread asking us ‘…EUROPE YES OR NO…’
I’m trying to work out if you can’t understand or just don’t want to understand what I’m saying,that leaving the EU on Farage’s,or Cameron’s,terms won’t make the slightest difference to Britain’s situation as it stands and that Thatcher’s ideology/stupidity is still alive and kicking in her followers and ex helpers like Farage.I think it’s probably the latter of those.
alte hase:
Postby Big Jon’s dad » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:30 pm
It may surprise you, Geoffrey, to learn that I offer my services to another service industry, the beauty trade. That service industry is not dependant on “high waged” industrial workers. It may further surprise you to learn that there is no shortage of money in some sectors of the economy. The only sector of the economy that is suffering is the lower working class who were dependant on industrial work (and the unemployed who wish to be employed). These people are like dinosaurs and haven’t evolved with changing circumstancesIf these workers are ‘dinosaurs’, the products that they produced would no longer be required, anywhere, but the products are still wanted and are still being produced, by workers with the same skill levels as the now unemployed ‘dinosaurs’ of the UK, however the products are being produced by near unpaid workers in the outsourced production lines of the ‘east’, the UK’s upper and middle ‘economies’ are having a whale of a time out of the targetted plunder of the UK lower ‘economy’, achieved solely through ‘outsourcing’, a greed and gluttony fuelled process of ‘dropping’ paid industrial workers in britain, then ‘taking up’ near unpaid industrial workers in the ‘east’, are these permanently busy industrial workers of the ‘east’ also dinosaurs?, this process is much admired and sanctioned by the UK government, well they studiously avoid denouncing it.
I hope you as an honest and successful entrepreneur pay up all your taxes due to the UK government, so that sufficient revenue can be collected to finance the UK’s unemployed ‘dinosaurs’ that you obviously look down upon, yet appear to hold the process of arriving at their unemployment and their former employers in such high esteem, high enough to pay extra taxes is that?.A lot of people who were not unionised have not suffered from the demise of those unions and their associated industies. You know, the ones that could adapt to the new circumstanses, rather than die out like the industriaal worker stuck in the 1970’s mindset.
Adapt to the new circumstances?, such as what, work for £0.79p per hour?, is that possible?, why should anyone work for less than you?, you of course work for only NMW, thats how to prosper isn’t it?.
I offer my services to another service industry, the beauty trade. That service industry is not dependant on “high waged” industrial workers,
… and they all own three vehicles apiece and own outright their own home with no mortgage?, or dont these ‘‘low wage’’ workers rank high enough up your social order to allow such thoughts?, lets see you live on the wage you think is good enough for ‘others’ to adapt to in the ‘new circumstances’.
^ This.
So there still might at least be some hope that the whole country doesn’t share the same old failed Thatcherite views as we’ve had since the late 1970’s which Big John’s Dad obviously still thinks will work when over 30 years of economic failure shows they don’t.The fact is the economy as a whole depends on well paid industrial workers.However an economy based on imports of manufactured goods and fuel paid for by overpaid,or more often underpaid,workers in service industries certainly won’t work.
Carryfast:
'… 'nionised workers’ didn’t price themselves too high at all … They actually … they wanted …’
[/quote]
VERSUS
> Carryfast:
> ‘…those with your views who … those with the views like yourself and Thatcher who got their way and the rest is history…’
These are human philosophies, not least involving the ‘T’ hate figurine and the history of 20th Century Economic Philosophy: That’s all very clever but doesn’t answer the question ‘…EUROPE YES OR NO…’
Meanwhile:
> Carryfast:
> ‘…I’m trying to work out if you can’t understand … what I’m saying,that leaving the EU on Farage’s … terms won’t make the slightest difference to Britain’s situation…’
Seeing into the future is a true gift and wasted in this context. Also, refusing to accept that he quoted stands to be an accountable representative of British democracy on the world stage in 2013 - not a wishy-washy, expensive autocrat at the beckoning of and in the mould of EU dyed, undemocratic liberal dictators alive in 2013, ie., van Rumpuuy, Barrosso, Blair, Cameron, Milliband and Clegg, which appears what is alluded as typical of all future acceptable leaders.
> Carryfast:
> ‘…Thatcher’s ideology/stupidity is still alive and kicking in her followers and ex helpers like Farage…’
Selective deafness is illustrating it’s presence if one remains wedded to the notion that nothing positive regarding democratic capitalism has been learned since 1989. Maybe the EU has dulled the imagination a bit too much
Happy Keith:
Carryfast:
'… 'nionised workers’ didn’t price themselves too high at all … They actually … they wanted …’
[/quote]
VERSUS
> Carryfast:
> ‘…those with your views who … those with the views like yourself and Thatcher who got their way and the rest is history…’
These are human philosophies, not least involving the ‘T’ hate figurine and the history of 20th Century Economic Philosophy: That’s all very clever but doesn’t answer the question ‘…EUROPE YES OR NO…’
Meanwhile:
> Carryfast:
> ‘…I’m trying to work out if you can’t understand … what I’m saying,that leaving the EU on Farage’s … terms won’t make the slightest difference to Britain’s situation…’
Seeing into the future is a true gift and wasted in this context. Also, refusing to accept that he quoted stands to be an accountable representative of British democracy on the world stage in 2013 - not a wishy-washy, expensive autocrat at the beckoning of and in the mould of EU dyed, undemocratic liberal dictators alive in 2013, ie., van Rumpuuy, Barrosso, Blair, Cameron, Milliband and Clegg, which appears what is alluded as typical of all future acceptable leaders.
> Carryfast:
> ‘…Thatcher’s ideology/stupidity is still alive and kicking in her followers and ex helpers like Farage…’
Selective deafness is illustrating it’s presence if one remains wedded to the notion that nothing positive regarding democratic capitalism has been learned since 1989. Maybe the EU has dulled the imagination a bit too much
[/quote]
The thing that Blair,Cameron,Miliband and Clegg all have in common is that they’re all just there to do whatever big business wants them to do.Just like Farage.The only difference between Farage and them is that he can see more advantage for the big business agenda in closer ties to the global free market economy while reducing ( as opposed to cutting ) our ties to the EU.The relevant bit is that there’s nothing in any of their policies which would make the slightest difference to the situation of the average British worker and therefore the uk economy as a whole.In that regard no nothing positive regarding democratic capitalism has been learned since 1973 let alone 1989.In other words EU ( and the global free market economy ) out completely.
But as for the global free market economy Yes and EU wether Yes or No,under Miliband’s,Cameron’s,Clegg’s or Farage’s terms,who gives a zb because either/any of those choices is no different to what we’ve got now.
CF you seem to have a dream, a dream of an ideal world in which all your wishes are fulfilled. You are not able to consider anything less than that perfect ideal. Would it not be acceptable to be gained incrementaly until you achieve your dream? Your solution is to say everything is borked and always will be borked. Then you sit and sulk about it. If you were willing to consider small changes that lead towards your ultimate goal, you could have a series of small victories. Instead you say “all or nothing” and you lose everything you dream of. Your dream is not the same as mine but I’m willing to get off my arse and do something to acheive my dream. Are you just a dreamer or are you a do-er?
alte hase:
Postby Big Jon’s dad » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:30 pm
It may surprise you, Geoffrey, to learn that I offer my services to another service industry, the beauty trade. That service industry is not dependant on “high waged” industrial workers. It may further surprise you to learn that there is no shortage of money in some sectors of the economy. The only sector of the economy that is suffering is the lower working class who were dependant on industrial work (and the unemployed who wish to be employed). These people are like dinosaurs and haven’t evolved with changing circumstancesIf these workers are ‘dinosaurs’, the products that they produced would no longer be required, anywhere, but the products are still wanted and are still being produced, by workers with the same skill levels as the now unemployed ‘dinosaurs’ of the UK, however the products are being produced by near unpaid workers in the outsourced production lines of the ‘east’, the UK’s upper and middle ‘economies’ are having a whale of a time out of the targetted plunder of the UK lower ‘economy’, achieved solely through ‘outsourcing’, a greed and gluttony fuelled process of ‘dropping’ paid industrial workers in britain, then ‘taking up’ near unpaid industrial workers in the ‘east’, are these permanently busy industrial workers of the ‘east’ also dinosaurs?, this process is much admired and sanctioned by the UK government, well they studiously avoid denouncing it.
I hope you as an honest and successful entrepreneur pay up all your taxes due to the UK government, so that sufficient revenue can be collected to finance the UK’s unemployed ‘dinosaurs’ that you obviously look down upon, yet appear to hold the process of arriving at their unemployment and their former employers in such high esteem, high enough to pay extra taxes is that?.A lot of people who were not unionised have not suffered from the demise of those unions and their associated industies. You know, the ones that could adapt to the new circumstanses, rather than die out like the industriaal worker stuck in the 1970’s mindset.
Adapt to the new circumstances?, such as what, work for £0.79p per hour?, is that possible?, why should anyone work for less than you?, you of course work for only NMW, thats how to prosper isn’t it?.
I offer my services to another service industry, the beauty trade. That service industry is not dependant on “high waged” industrial workers,
… and they all own three vehicles apiece and own outright their own home with no mortgage?, or dont these ‘‘low wage’’ workers rank high enough up your social order to allow such thoughts?, lets see you live on the wage you think is good enough for ‘others’ to adapt to in the ‘new circumstances’.
Wind yer neck in, I’m baiting Carryfast, but if you want to play as well I’ll answer this time.
No one has suggested you work for less than me. I also was low paid at one time when I was working on the factory clocking on machines. That job has all but disappeared too, but not being a dinosaur, I adapted to the changed employment situation and found a niche where I could better myself. In a fully unionised and controlled industrial economy I would have to accept the wage my masters said I was worth and only work when they permitted me to work (I’m talking about the unions here, not an employer or the government). Too many people expect to have jobs handed to them and be looked after by an employer. They can’t give up the security of paid holidays, sickness benefit, unemployment benefit etc etc and are scared of finding their own work out in the big bad world. Those with more get up and go often succeed as they are willing to work harder as they risk losing everything, including their house, if they make a balls up of it.
I do indeed pay all my taxes scrupulously. I’m too scared of the consequenses of not paying. I don’t like paying taxes especially when so much of our taxes are wasted, especially on the EU. This is the basis of my disagreement with Carryfast, he wants more government control over our lives, I want less. In fact the less levels of government we have, the better I like it. I also think we shouldn’t pay our polititians, union leaders, civil servants and council workers any more than the national average wage. Expenses to be restricted to essentials only.
If you object to “stuff” being made very cheaply somewhere else, the solution is in your hands. Don’t buy it, and tell all your mates not to buy it either. Businesses only produce what they can sell. If there is no market for cheap tat, they will stop making cheap tat. Buy less “stuff” but buy better quality “stuff”. Better quality “stuff” doesn’t need replacing so often either. No charge for this financial advice.
Present for Carryfast: Nice young very attractive lady European. Born in Greece, raised and lives in Germany, sings in at least 6 languages including English, French, German, Greek, Dutch, and Japanese. Represented Luxemborg in the Eurovision Song Contest.
youtube.com/watch?v=nD4ib9-laGY
Although I want the UK to leave the EU, not all Europeans are bad people. This particular one is very nice. Keep watching even if you don’t like the song, she’s worth watching and I think CF will find her attractive. Pity the film dates back to 1967. Still that is CF’s favorit time period.