Europe yes or no

[carryfast]

Winseer:

Dennisthemenace:

Winseer:
Let’s face it. Without a major natural dieback event, there are just too many people in Europe today.
The very nature of democracy, and it’s inevitable downfall will be that there are low-productive peope outbreeding the high productive ones by a wide margin. Fast forward another 50 years, and the British as a people will go the same way as the Celts. "Just some folk with funny ideas, and a funny religion that used to live on these islands"
or perhaps I should say:-
فقط بعض القوم مع الأفكار مضحك، ودين مضحك التي اعتادوا العيش في هذه الجزر

So: love the eastern european migrants, they can help to maintain christianity.

Last time I looked, it was the non-EU immigrants that come over here, and then live off the state - NOT the eastern European ones who’ll not go beyond housing benefit (although that’s still bad enough!) having got a job…

I don’t want to risk being stabbed by a Somali in Streatham or be a victim of the people that should not be here in the first place.
THIS is not a country for other country’s fugitives to come over to, and set up business as criminals - and yet, “Political Correctness” says we must do just that.
PC says we can’t have a revolution either - because the people are then all terroists, and the state will just murder the public like in Syria!
Perhaps one day, the establishment of this nation might become a victim of the country that they’ve created - get voted out by the expanding population of immigrants and never returned to office again!

Not voting at all or voting for the incumbent prevents that. Get out there and vote against everyone until you get the changes in your community you want. No changes? - Every politician becomes a single-term candidate then.
It’s upto the population to prevent this obscenity of “Safe Seats” in this country where “Safe Tory Seat” means a paedo with a blue rosette gets elected over businesspeople creating hundreds of jobs, but wearing another colour buttonhole!

That was a party political broadcast on behalf of the ■■■■■■■■■■ majority party.

Or have you ever thought that just maybe the place isn’t worth bothering about it in which case it would be better to let it go because that’s all it deserves.Unfortunately for all those conscripts who never came back from WW2.

The fact is there are no political parties or leaders who are worth voting for because they are all the same most of them being so called ‘business’ people like zb Farage and his Thatcherite comrades.

[foxy_stars]

am really looking forward to watching bbc parliament it’s either this afternoon or tomorrow afternoon cos the government are going to be put through the political mill for the fun of it on the floor of the commons — which isn’t so “common” cos it’s a closed club — over europe, i can see it being fairly entertaining and it usually is where europe is concerned…

i case you’re wondering, i’m on nights this week…

[dennisthemenace]

Carryfast:

Dennisthemenace:

Carryfast:

Wheel Nut:
I don’t want to return to the 1970’s

Are you sure about that.

No surprise what happened after we’d joined the EU and after Thatcher got in and then when the global free market economy started to affect the economy from the late 1980’s on and through the 21’st century.The words falling and North Face of the Eiger seem to describe it.

economicshelp.org/blog/wp-co … 9-2010.jpg

Yes, I would love to leave in the sixties, seventies if it was possible… Great cars, bikes, more ■■■■ women with hairy…erm…armpits… BUT: time is gone, and the main reason of the fall of the british industry is very simple; the quality was poor. More exactly, poorer, than products made by other countries. Think (for example) Rover. Or just go to the bathroom;on the continent they started installing mixertaps in the seventies, in Britain still can see mostly the old fashioned (rubbish) separated taps:(

Blimey what a load of stereotypical bs.There were actually people still living in old victorian houses during the 1970’s my Grandmothers being two of them.Poor quality British engineering bs.Like the zb Germans built a plane which could compete with a VC10 or French Citroens and Renaults were better than those Jags,Rovers,and Triumphs.Although admittedly the Germans knew how to build a car just so long as you wanted to pay more than Jaguar money,for what was just an uprated 1960’s Ford Zodiac,with 1960’s type Triumph type rear suspension,in that E3 BMW which I’ve described and the Merc wasn’t any different either except for it’s V8 engine option.Anyway you seem to know a lot about the engineering standards which applied in British factories during the 1970’s so exactly what engineering experience of working in a British factory during the 1970’s have you got .It’s my bet you’ve never even seen a typical British engineering production operation of the time in action let alone been part of it and as I’ve said before if it wasn’t for the British engineering industry most of Europe would be speaking German now as part of a 1,000 year Reich.At least those who ze Germans decided were good enough for slave labour.Not forgetting that Russia was part of the axis when British made Spitfires took on the Luftwaffe in 1940.

As for that time being gone.The fact is we’ve got a choice of either going back to the type of economic growth shown in that post,which as the figures show was a steady upward trend during the 1960’s followed by take off in 1970 ( until we joined the EU ).Or stay where we are in the EU and the global free market economy in which case those figures and the graph say everything about the obvious results of where that policy will eventually take us.

The victorian houses were great in the victorian age, but I would not like to live in them nowadays.The reason there are so many still in use is very,very simple “Bomber” (or as the german people say “Butcher”) Harris did not hit Britain… I did not say, the British engineering was poor; in my opinion the cars, bikes were great, up to the early eighties. Bt something went wrong, the time has stopped. Most likely, they did not spend money enough on innovation and research.I was born in '68, so I missed the roaring seventies, trust me, I would be happy to see a car factory in Britain during those years… At the moment I’ve got two British cars; a ‘9 3 Mini and a 98’ Rover 100. I just wanna say I,m not against the British engineering.The only one thing I wanna say the British engineering is not the same anymore.Unfortunately. About the war: No one knows, how should look Europe if the nazis won; but, without the Russians and the Yankees could be even a nice place… The most likely thing that could happen; after their victory, within 15 years Hitler would be scrapped and replaced somebody, who s not some nuts like Hitler was.

[kr79]

Yeah totaleterian regimes are well known for having nice guys in charge.

[geoffo]

Wheel Nut:
Belgium who rely on a well known black economy.

What black economy Is that then ■■

[kr79]

Geoffo:

Wheel Nut:
Belgium who rely on a well known black economy.

What black economy Is that then ■■

‘Shadow economy’ is fifth-largest in Europe, according to new study

Belgium’s black economy is worth an estimated €61 billion, according to a study carried out on behalf of the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). That puts it in fifth place among developed nations.

The study was carried out by Professor Friedrich Schneider of the University of Linz in Austria, an expert on the black economy, or what he calls “shadow economy”, defined as economic activities that circumvent government regulation or taxation. The main reason for entering the shadow economy is to avoid paying tax and other charges on wages, but it is also attractive to avoid regulation (common in the construction industry) or to allow the employment of workers who are not permitted to work, and can therefore be employed more cheaply. These cases are often combined, so, for instance, a contractor might employ asylum seekers so he can pay them low rates, avoid social security and ignore safety rules.

The economic crisis has had a widespread effect on the black economy, as people whose earnings have gone down (or failed to go up sufficiently) attempt to make up for it by increasing their shadow earnings. In the OECD countries as a whole, the average size of the shadow economy, expressed as a percentage of GDP, has gone up from 13.3% in 2008 to 14% in 2010. In Belgium, the share went up from 17.5% to 17.9%, which represents the equivalent of €61 billion circulating in the economy out of the reach of any regulation.

The Schneider figures correspond to estimates produced earlier this year by the socialist trade union ABVV, which said that tax evasion alone was costing the treasury €20 to €24 billion a year, or 7% of GDP. That figure comes close to the €25 billion hole in the federal budget the government will have to plug in the coming years.

The report lacks a breakdown of those sectors where the shadow economy is most prevalent because the data was not available, Schneider said. However he did provide a breakdown for Germany, Austria and Switzerland which showed that construction was by far the biggest problem sector, followed by the motor trade, the catering industry, entertainment and personal services,
which includes hairdressers and cleaning personnel.

Asked why they had recourse to the shadow economy, the main reason among those polled in the developing countries was too much government regulation, or what Schneider calls “tax rebellion”: people feel the government is wasting enough of their money and refuse to give them more. The poor provision of services in the countries of southern Europe is a perennial complaint. The high- tax economies of Scandinavia are also clear targets for tax rebellion. The arrival of Belgium in fifth place on the table, meanwhile, should give the new government, when it is agreed, food for thought.

Black economy as a percentage of GDP
Greece 25.2%
Italy 22.2
Spain 19.8
Portugal 19.7
Belgium 17.9
Sweden 15.6
Norway 15.4 Germany 14.7
Denmark 14.4
Finland 14.3

Alan Hope
(September 8, 2010)

[geoffo]

^^^^^^^^^

Oh that one…

[dennisthemenace]

kr79:
Yeah totaleterian regimes are well known for having nice guys in charge.

After a succesful expansion and a war finished victory the Third Reich would become a really rich and powerful superstate,and the changes would be done. Look at Germany now; they lost the war, but they are the best country in Europe. What if they won? Yes.

[carryfast]

Dennisthemenace:

kr79:
Yeah totaleterian regimes are well known for having nice guys in charge.

After a succesful expansion and a war finished victory the Third Reich would become a really rich and powerful superstate,and the changes would be done. Look at Germany now; they lost the war, but they are the best country in Europe. What if they won? Yes.

Er no my grandfather and my father had some dealings with this lot and you can bet if Hitler had won each generation of nazis that followed him would have been even worse than the ones before.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

As for what went wrong here the fact is Heath saw some things in that war,like many of his generation who fought in it,and it scared the zb out of him.His wish for Britain’s membership of the EU was all about keeping ze Germans happy so it never happened again rather than telling them to pay up every pound that they owed us,and the rest of Europe,in war reperations and if they were up for another go then bring it on.

But it’s not surprising that you haven’t got much idea about the qualities of British engineering if your only experience of it is a Mini and a Rover 100.While that lack of development in British car design was just a refelection of the economic policy of an effective foreign aid excercise to make Germany and the rest of Europe richer at our expense and cheap Jap imports.So unfortunately instead of every British worker driving a V8,or V12 powerd car made by Jaguar,Rover or Triumph all many of them could afford was something like a cheap imported Datsun or an Allegro.Assuming they were lucky enough to have a job.

[winseer]

How can you have exact percentages for any “Black Economy”?

Surely, that’s like asking for the sound of a tree falling down when there’s no one there to hear it…

[kr79]

Carryfast:

Dennisthemenace:

kr79:
Yeah totaleterian regimes are well known for having nice guys in charge.

After a succesful expansion and a war finished victory the Third Reich would become a really rich and powerful superstate,and the changes would be done. Look at Germany now; they lost the war, but they are the best country in Europe. What if they won? Yes.

Er no my grandfather and my father had some dealings with this lot and you can bet if Hitler had won each generation of nazis that followed him would have been even worse than the ones before.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

As for what went wrong here the fact is Heath saw some things in that war,like many of his generation who fought in it,and it scared the zb out of him.His wish for Britain’s membership of the EU was all about keeping ze Germans happy so it never happened again rather than telling them to pay up every pound that they owed us,and the rest of Europe,in war reperations and if they were up for another go then bring it on.

For once carryfast is talking sense. It’s obvious if the nazis had one hitler would have been either overthrown in a coup which would have to be led by an even bigger nutcase or if he had retired/died. Would have been replaced by one of his inner circle. Now you wouldn’t rise to that rank in the party been a moderate.
Same as you can see why the politicians of the 60s and 70s wouldn’t want a divided Europe as they were the young men of world war 2 same as the appeasers of the 30s were that way inclined after the horror of world war1.

[carryfast]

kr79:

Carryfast:

Dennisthemenace:

kr79:
Yeah totaleterian regimes are well known for having nice guys in charge.

After a succesful expansion and a war finished victory the Third Reich would become a really rich and powerful superstate,and the changes would be done. Look at Germany now; they lost the war, but they are the best country in Europe. What if they won? Yes.

Er no my grandfather and my father had some dealings with this lot and you can bet if Hitler had won each generation of nazis that followed him would have been even worse than the ones before.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

As for what went wrong here the fact is Heath saw some things in that war,like many of his generation who fought in it,and it scared the zb out of him.His wish for Britain’s membership of the EU was all about keeping ze Germans happy so it never happened again rather than telling them to pay up every pound that they owed us,and the rest of Europe,in war reperations and if they were up for another go then bring it on.

It’s obvious if the nazis had one hitler would have been either overthrown in a coup which would have to be led by an even bigger nutcase or if he had retired/died. Would have been replaced by one of his inner circle. Now you wouldn’t rise to that rank in the party been a moderate.
Same as you can see why the politicians of the 60s and 70s wouldn’t want a divided Europe as they were the young men of world war 2 same as the appeasers of the 30s were that way inclined after the horror of world war1.

^ This.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot

Surely if there’s agreement on that isue then the whole basis of how Britain became involved with the EEC/EU and the case for joining in 1973,together with the lies put out by the yes campaign in the last referendum,should have been enough to have hauled Heath,Wilson and Thatcher up before the courts for activeties against the national interest in just the same way as any British spy found working for the Russians at the time would have been.You probably won’t like it but I’d suggest that the whole government process of the 1970’s was rigged and seems to have been a conspiracy involving Heath,Wilson,Callaghan and Thatcher.

While those growth figures show that,contrary to the propaganda by Callaghan and Thatcher,the British economy was being kept afloat by the heroic efforts of the British workforce at the time despite having a government that was working against the country’s interests both in therms of EEC/EU membership and selling our industrial capacity out to the global free market which has obviously benefitted the interests of the Communist states like Russia and China over our own.

Rather than the Wilson,Callaghan and Thatcherite ( and wheelnut ) version of history,which was re written to show that it was a case of vice versa,in that the economy was being kept afloat by the heroic actions of the Labour and Tory Parties,despite the activeties of the British workforce acting against the interests of their respective industries and their country.The fact is many of those workers had some years before been fighting for the place in a World War and those growth figures don’t lie.Unlike every successive government since 1973.

[dennisthemenace]

OK, we went too far. The question was; in our out of the EU. My answer is yes.

[happy_keith]

Carryfast:
‘…As for Farage … it’s my guess that he just wants to exchange that situation for doing exactly the same thing but on an even larger scale in the global free market economy instead of the European one…’

I can’t connect a problem with that

It’s surely preferrable to having Brussels strangle any relationship outside of their jurisdiction - which is, both frankly and in practice, control-freakery and strangulation of our national right to form our own, democratic relationships. We are grown-up and are supposed to be democratic, after all

Carryfast:
‘…e’s [Farage] just another Thatcher but in this case he wants to break our ties with the Germans and replace them with the Chinese…’
[/quote]
The answer being what A published international list of ‘best-friends’ That’s weird…
Also, where’'s the evidence/proof that Farage wants to break ties with a successful trading nation The man is married to a Boxhead: He likes them
> Carryfast:
> ‘… Farage describes himself as a ‘businessman’ not a ‘worker’ …’
Where’s the crime in recognising a penchant to challenge muppetry (see Fighting Bull, ISBN 9781849540391), where his a talent as a human is described whereby, somewhat inadvertantly, he following his father into the city and spent lots of time on the lash enjoying himself & learning stuff about the Brussels federal, covert nastiness: A good lad - and after my own heart, say I
I’m curious why we’re being invited here to baulk at the the word ‘…businessman…’ in preference to ‘…worker…’ In this age of equality, is there some sort of class distinction/discrimination/inferiority lark going on

[carryfast]

Happy Keith:

Carryfast:
‘…As for Farage … it’s my guess that he just wants to exchange that situation for doing exactly the same thing but on an even larger scale in the global free market economy instead of the European one…’

I can’t connect a problem with that

It’s surely preferrable to having Brussels strangle any relationship outside of their jurisdiction - which is, both frankly and in practice, control-freakery and strangulation of our national right to form our own, democratic relationships. We are grown-up and are supposed to be democratic, after all

Carryfast:
‘…e’s [Farage] just another Thatcher but in this case he wants to break our ties with the Germans and replace them with the Chinese…’
[/quote]
The answer being what A published international list of ‘best-friends’ That’s weird…
Also, where’'s the evidence/proof that Farage wants to break ties with a successful trading nation The man is married to a Boxhead: He likes them
> Carryfast:
> ‘… Farage describes himself as a ‘businessman’ not a ‘worker’ …’
Where’s the crime in recognising a penchant to challenge muppetry (see Fighting Bull, ISBN 9781849540391), where his a talent as a human is described whereby, somewhat inadvertantly, he following his father into the city and spent lots of time on the lash enjoying himself & learning stuff about the Brussels federal, covert nastiness: A good lad - and after my own heart, say I
I’m curious why we’re being invited here to baulk at the the word ‘…businessman…’ in preference to ‘…worker…’ In this age of equality, is there some sort of class distinction/discrimination/inferiority lark going on
[/quote]
So you can’t connect a problem,with the reasons for us leaving the EU ( IE paying out a fortune in contributions for the privilege of running a massive trade deficit,in a federation run by the Germans for the Germans ).With the idea of being involved in a similar ( but even worse ) type of foreign aid excercise in the global free market economy in which we just exchange the issue of it being run by the Germans for the Germans with being run by the Chinese Communist Party for the Chinese Communist Party.
As for that zb Farage he’s a self confessed Thatcherite and therefore global free marketeer and if you can’t understand the irony of all that ( being that Thatcher was on the side of the yes campaign during the last EEC/EU referendum ) and in view of my first parapraph then what hope is there for the place.
As for my description of ‘breaking ties with the Germans’ I meant in the form of ( rightly ) leaving the EU federation which is obviously run in the interests of the Germans. Although there’s not much point in us doing that if we then just do something similar in the case of throwing our lot in with the Chinese in the global free market economy.
As for businessmen v workers I’d say that the economy has shown that the interests of the ‘businessmen’,like bankers and CBI tossers,have always been totally opposite to the nation’s ‘workers’ and therefore it’s economy as a whole.Let me guess I’d bet you’re one of those who’d say we must never go back to the type of economy we had in 1960-72.In which case,running trade deficits,of the type which we’ve had since our involvement with the EEC/EU and then the global free market economy,would have produced exactly the same type of nosediving economy which the graph that I posted shows quite clearly has been the main characteristic of Britain’s economy since 1973.
As for our own so called ‘democracy’ v that of the EU.Ironically Farage has made plenty of speeches about the lack of democracy in the EU.But it seems a bit strange why the level of democracy he’s arguing about,up to referendum level on the decision making process,isn’t something that he,or his Thatcherite cronies,ever seem to have wanted to give to their own people in the case of our own government.Such as in the case of decisions taken by those Tory zb’s like wiping out our mining industry for example amongst all the other dictatorial decision making processes which are a feature of British ‘democracy’ unlike the Swiss method of government.
As the bankers have shown ‘businessmen’ are all about making themselves richer at the country’s expense and if that means selling the place out to the foreign competition,either because they’re scared of what might happen if they don’t, such as in the case of Germany and probably China and Russia,and/or for a bit of personal gain for themselves,in the form of profit made off the back of cheap foreign labour,while putting our own out of work,they’re happy to do that too.

[happy_keith]

Carryfast:
‘…Let me guess I’d bet you’re one of those who’d say we must never go back to the type of economy we had in 1960-72…’

I rarely ‘say’ such black & white things as is gambled at here - whilst considering many of the cases (rants?) presented to be flimsily aimed at best.

I’ll keep it simple by asking what’s wrong with doing what’s best for Britain by leaving:

1. The EU.

2. All residual (and xenophobic?) distrust of costly sister nations with their ‘wants & wishes’ aside for them to manage.

Meanwhile ‘…1960-72…’ was the era which saw, amongst others, the British motorbike industry utterly wasted: It couldn’t have been any better stuffed had it pinned on its botty a ‘Take-me now, Sir Jimmy’ badge and asked ‘…Now-then, now-then, how’s about a piece of that then…’ - whilst all the time congratulating itself

Return to that? No ta

However, give me self-determining democracy as might be reasonably advocated by any anti-federalist of any nationality[/b] - and of which there are too few not-least because the left-wing BBC doesn’t like them - any day

[carryfast]

Happy Keith:

Carryfast:
‘…Let me guess I’d bet you’re one of those who’d say we must never go back to the type of economy we had in 1960-72…’

I rarely ‘say’ such black & white things as is gambled at here - whilst considering many of the cases (rants?) presented to be flimsily aimed at best.

I’ll keep it simple by asking what’s wrong with doing what’s best for Britain by leaving:

1. The EU.

2. All residual (and xenophobic?) distrust of costly sister nations with their ‘wants & wishes’ aside for them to manage.

Meanwhile ‘…1960-72…’ was the era which saw, amongst others, the British motorbike industry utterly wasted: It couldn’t have been any better stuffed had it pinned on its botty a ‘Take-me now, Sir Jimmy’ badge and asked ‘…Now-then, now-then, how’s about a piece of that then…’ - whilst all the time congratulating itself

Return to that? No ta

However, give me self-determining democracy as might be reasonably advocated by any anti-federalist of any nationality[/b] - and of which there are too few not-least because the left-wing BBC doesn’t like them - any day
[/quote]
Firstly there’s probably no way that we’re going to get out of the EU under a Tory/LibDem government.Notice that I haven’t put Labour in that being that I don’t recognise the Labour Party as being Labour since Wilson’s support of EU membership and supporting Callaghan as leader let alone Blair.
I think I’ve made it clear that we’ve never had a self determining democracy.What we’ve had is a choice of dictatorship every 5 years.
Doing what’s best for Britain isn’t going to work by just putting a free market supporting Thatcherite leader and Party into power.As I’ve said it’ll just be a case of jumping out of the frying pan of the EU into the fire of the global free market economy together with all the unanswered questions related to how can someone who’s based his ideas on an obvious supporter of the EU project then turn that into a so called sceptic viewpoint bearing in mind that Thatcher supported EU membership just like Wilson and Callaghan together with all the future implications of joining.As for right and left wing as I’ve said previously the two are totally irrelevant.
You’ve said you wouldn’t want to go back to the type of economy which we had in 1960-1972.So I’ve decided to post this again together with the question as to how you intend to get economic growth figures to match those with the present state of Britain’s trade deficits with both the EU ‘and’ the global free market economy and resulting lost industrial capacity and income levels in real terms compared to that time.Which contrary to your ideas involves/d a ( much ) bigger picture than just the fortunes of the British motorbike industry.
economicshelp.org/blog/wp-co … 9-2010.jpg

[nsmith1180]

Get the hell out, then send all the people that Brussells have said are free to take our jobs for stupidly low wages back to the countries from whence they came.

All of a sudden, the UK unemployement problem becomes an irritant over night, nothing more.

All of a sudden, the welfare bill comes down because we are no paying hundreds of thousands of people who are entitled just because Blair signed a bit of paper.

Sorry to all you home owners out there but: All of a sudden I can afford to move out of my parents house!

[happy_keith]

Carryfast:
‘…I’ve decided to post this again together with the question as to how you intend to get economic growth figures to match those with the present state of Britain’s trade deficits with both the EU ‘and’ the global free market economy and resulting lost industrial capacity and income levels in real terms compared to that time.Which contrary to your ideas involves/d a ( much ) bigger picture than just the fortunes of the British motorbike industry…’

Eh

Since when have I ever advocated having strategic answers to unclear ‘questions’

Meanwhile, I do know that:

1 A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
2 Empty vessels make most noise
3 Britain’s holistic fortune has a better chance of prospering outside the EU

[carryfast]

Happy Keith:

Carryfast:
‘…I’ve decided to post this again together with the question as to how you intend to get economic growth figures to match those with the present state of Britain’s trade deficits with both the EU ‘and’ the global free market economy and resulting lost industrial capacity and income levels in real terms compared to that time.Which contrary to your ideas involves/d a ( much ) bigger picture than just the fortunes of the British motorbike industry…’

Eh

Since when have I ever advocated having strategic answers to unclear ‘questions’

Meanwhile, I do know that:

1 A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
2 Empty vessels make most noise
3 Britain’s holistic fortune has a better chance of prospering outside the EU

The question seemed clear enough to me.Between 1960-1972 that graph shows a totally different type of economy than what we had after that time.It’s obvious that the idea of opening Britain’s markets up to a flood of imports is what wrecked it.The issue of wether we’re being governed by a federal europe or by Britain’s elected dicatorship system is a side show compared to that issue.However I think that a UKIP government would just be a case of replacing a flood of European imports with an even bigger one of Chinese etc imports.While replacing a federal EU government,that’s run for the interests of British big business/bankers and Germany,with the elected dictatorship which we’ve always had that’s run for the interests of British businessmen/bankers like Farage and the Chinese.

Britain’s fortune actually depends on getting a real Labour government into power with a leader like Shore running it instead of Wilson,Callaghan,Blair,or Miliband.