tachograph:
I think the point some of you are missing is that in this situation the WTD actually benefits the drivers, with that in mind why would they want to ignore it
I benefits nobody at all,since its introduction I’ve still worked the same hours.POA is just a legal fiddle to get the hours down to 48.Its just another load of ■■■■■■■■.In my view I’m on POA from getting in motor to when I go home at the weekend.I tramp so I’m available for work all week as I’m living at bloody work.
So the fact that the WTD has enabled the drivers mentioned in the OPs post to have days off, days that they apparently want off, hasn’t worked in their favour
I’m hoping some of you will be able to help with some issues we are having at work. My driver’s consistently work over 48 hours a week to ensure that all depots in the company are visited. To bring the hours down we regularly stand drivers down at the end of the reference period to bring their hours back down to below the 48 limit. This POA was taken at home and although the driver’s weren’t happy about the long hours they accepted it as they knew that they would be getting their time back at the end of period.
Recently we have had a new manager who is insisting that driver’s should be using thier poa when they are waiting to tip - the waiting time for this is never known and is also insisting that the poa at the end of the reference period must be taken in the staff canteen not at home. As the legal wording of poa is a bit grey would anyone be able to tell me if this is legal?
I’ve had a look at Ross vs stobart and as far as I can tell what the manager is making the driver’s do is incorrect but her is insisting that that court case does not apply to us and is threatening disciplinary action against all the driver’s refusing to tow the line.
TIA
SOUNDS LIKE A REGION OF UK fill in the gaps ---- FOODS ■■?
tachograph:
I think the point some of you are missing is that in this situation the WTD actually benefits the drivers, with that in mind why would they want to ignore it
I benefits nobody at all,since its introduction I’ve still worked the same hours.POA is just a legal fiddle to get the hours down to 48.Its just another load of ■■■■■■■■.In my view I’m on POA from getting in motor to when I go home at the weekend.I tramp so I’m available for work all week as I’m living at bloody work.
So the fact that the WTD has enabled the drivers mentioned in the OPs post to have days off, days that they apparently want off, hasn’t worked in their favour
OK
Do they get paid?Days off are no good without wages are they?Sounds like you’re the type who tows the line no matter how ridiculous the line is
OK?
Roymondo:
Why on earth would I want to put it on break (or indeed on POA)? The whole idea of the WTD is to protect employees from being exploited by employers requiring them to be at work for excessive hours. POA (and recording Breaks instead of POA) is simply a fudge to allow such exploitation while remaining “legal”. Using POA (or Break) just to keep your hours up is tantamount to saying “Here, boss - I’ve brought my own Vaseline - help yourself”.
^^ This - I can only guess that your drivers are salaried rather than being hourly paid. The reason they are being “Stood Down” is because they have already worked the hours that they are contracted and paid to do. In other words they have earned their money just in a shorter space of time than the company would like.
They cannot then be put on POA at work (In the canteen) as they have worked their hours they should be at home enjoying themselves. The company has had their pound of flesh and the drivers have fulfilled their contractual obligations - full stop. If they don’t like this they should make the drivers working day shorter.
spoonman777:
Sounds like you’re the type who tows the line no matter how ridiculous the line is
Whatever, but this thread isn’t about me or you, if the drivers this thread is about can get what they want I say air play to them.
And me - If they are contacted to work 48 hours I would bang out 3 x 13 hour shifts then do 9 hours on Thursday and have Friday at home. Fair play to them
spoonman777:
Sounds like you’re the type who tows the line no matter how ridiculous the line is
Whatever, but this thread isn’t about me or you, if the drivers this thread is about can get what they want I say air play to them.
Thought someone said it wasn’t legal to be at home?The thread might not be about me or you but it concerns us.If you’re off and paid you get 8hrs in the work column.If you’re not paid you get 0hrs.WTD might work for home every night boys but it’ll never work for trampers or International operations.
Seems to me it’s been dreamt up by a clown in Brussels to keep wages low in an already low paid industry.
spoonman777:
Thought someone said it wasn’t legal to be at home?The thread might not be about me or you but it concerns us.If you’re off and paid you get 8hrs in the work column.If you’re not paid you get 0hrs.WTD might work for home every night boys but it’ll never work for trampers or International operations.
Seems to me it’s been dreamt up by a clown in Brussels to keep wages low in an already low paid industry.
It works particularly well if you’re tramping - if you understand how it works. You get most of your hours done Mon-Thurs, and can’t be kept out late on a Friday, (I’m talking about the 60hrs a week here). You don’t load on break, or you are giving time away. I don’t mean spinning the job out - I mean getting on with it and only putting the tacho on break and rest when that is what you are doing. This way, your working hours are building up. Then when you need to be stood down to get the average down to 48, many companies are paying for this too (although I’m sure there are exceptions).
Of course your holidays count towards the WTD, otherwise the company could get you to work those hours! Your holiday hours are counted so that your company can’t use them to reduce your working time. If you are stood down in order to balance the WTD, these hours are not counted (but often paid). So you get these, as well as your holidays, not instead of. And of course, if you are stood down, you should be at home (or down the pub, or whatever takes your fancy).
If their average is running too high they can still be brought into work, sat wherever the company wants and told to record POA. As long as the activity fits the criteria - I.e they ‘know’ how long it will be. It doesn’t matter if they have to remain ‘at the workstation’ if it is deemed prudent to make them do so for their own health & safety.
As long as their average isn’t over 48 hours BY THE END OF THE REFERENCE PERIOD then the rules have been complied with. Sitting them on POA for 8 hours (or break) will do wonders to reduce their average. People seem to miss the point the average is spread across the whole reference period as it matters not what the average is during the reference period.
If I was the employer I certainly wouldn’t pay anyone to sit at home except for their holiday entitlement. If I gotta pay them for POA time they can sit at work. Sitting at home unpaid will not reduce their average. Neither will paid holidays (up to the first 20 days of entitlement).
Of course it all depends on contractual arrangements
shep532:
Sitting at home unpaid will not reduce their average.
Yes it will, provided it isn’t statutory holiday time off doesn’t count towards WTD hours.
shep532:
Neither will paid holidays (up to the first 20 days of entitlement).
I believe it’s now 28 days statutory leave, but this does include public and bank holidays.
you may be right - I confused myself. Maybe unpaid time off will reduce the average but I’m struggling to understand how I would record this in my analysis software. It seems to allow hours of activity to be entered, or holiday, or…can’t enter anything else. I give up on this - and accept I was wrong.
Holidays are 28 days but only the first 20 count. This is definitely correct.
shep532:
I’m struggling to understand how I would record this in my analysis software. It seems to allow hours of activity to be entered, or holiday, or…can’t enter anything else. I give up on this - and accept I was wrong.
How would you enter a day on which the driver was on Rest?
shep532:
I’m struggling to understand how I would record this in my analysis software. It seems to allow hours of activity to be entered, or holiday, or…can’t enter anything else. I give up on this - and accept I was wrong.
How would you enter a day on which the driver was on Rest?
Select the bed symbol - Doh!!! Missed that one didn’t I
it’s been a very long day - I’m tired and I think dementia is starting.
shep532:
If their average is running too high they can still be brought into work, sat wherever the company wants and told to record POA. As long as the activity fits the criteria - I.e they ‘know’ how long it will be. It doesn’t matter if they have to remain ‘at the workstation’ if it is deemed prudent to make them do so for their own health & safety.
How can it be prudent to make a driver sit in a canteen for H&S reasons when there’s no point in even being on the premises
Surely the prudent option for a driver who cannot legally do any work is to give them the day off so H&S doesn’t even apply to them.
I think I’d enjoy being in the courtroom when an employer said “I made the driver illegally come to his workstation because I considered it safer than him staying at home with his spouse”
shep532:
If I was the employer I certainly wouldn’t pay anyone to sit at home except for their holiday entitlement
The simple solution to that would be for the employer to organise the drivers work so that he/she doesn’t go over the average 48 hours over the reference period, but of course that’s not always practical
By the way, paid time off work can be used to bring down a drivers average, except as you say, 4 weeks of the statutory holiday leave.
There are plenty of companies that pay salaried drivers to stay home in order to bring down their average.
spoonman777:
If you’re off and paid you get 8hrs in the work column.
Not necessarily, as long as it’s not part of the statutory holiday leave paid days off can be used to reduce the average working time.
Yes but it reduces it even more if you’re not paid as you clock up zero.Everyone still works silly hours but fiddles it by using POA to below ave 48hrs.Its pointless.
spoonman777:
If you’re off and paid you get 8hrs in the work column.
Not necessarily, as long as it’s not part of the statutory holiday leave paid days off can be used to reduce the average working time.
Yes but it reduces it even more if you’re not paid as you clock up zero.Everyone still works silly hours but fiddles it by using POA to below ave 48hrs.Its pointless.
Besides that,how many firms will stand you down and pay you as well?Was always under impression that people ran transport to make a profit.Not a lot of profit in my motor being stood a day and me at home being paid for doing nowt.
spoonman777:
If you’re off and paid you get 8hrs in the work column.
Not necessarily, as long as it’s not part of the statutory holiday leave paid days off can be used to reduce the average working time.
Yes but it reduces it even more if you’re not paid as you clock up zero.Everyone still works silly hours but fiddles it by using POA to below ave 48hrs.Its pointless.
As long as the time off isn’t part of the statutory holiday it doesn’t matter whether you’re being paid or not it counts as zero hours for the WTD.
That’s excluding things like maternity/paternity leave or sick leave.
As for the question about how many companies pay people to stay home, I don’t know how many but I do know of some companies that do pay salaried drivers for days taken off to reduce their average.
Terry T:
If a boss makes his employees sit in a canteen for 8 hours instead of at home then IMO he’s a woman’s front bottom. It’s nothing other than spite.
This ^^^^ sums it up in a nutshell. It’s the politics of envy, pure and simple. Companies absolutely love to create non jobs such as “compliance manager”, so maybe these compliance managers should do what they’re actually paid to do which is monitor drivers hours and take action before the crisis is reached, and maybe instruct the planners to keep any drivers hours down when he/she is getting close to the limits.
But they won’t do that as all they’re really interested in is getting pallets out of the gate. Right up until the moment it bites them in the ■■■ that is!
