I’m hoping some of you will be able to help with some issues we are having at work. My driver’s consistently work over 48 hours a week to ensure that all depots in the company are visited. To bring the hours down we regularly stand drivers down at the end of the reference period to bring their hours back down to below the 48 limit. This POA was taken at home and although the driver’s weren’t happy about the long hours they accepted it as they knew that they would be getting their time back at the end of period.
Recently we have had a new manager who is insisting that driver’s should be using thier poa when they are waiting to tip - the waiting time for this is never known and is also insisting that the poa at the end of the reference period must be taken in the staff canteen not at home. As the legal wording of poa is a bit grey would anyone be able to tell me if this is legal?
I’ve had a look at Ross vs stobart and as far as I can tell what the manager is making the driver’s do is incorrect but her is insisting that that court case does not apply to us and is threatening disciplinary action against all the driver’s refusing to tow the line.
Beaker!:
I’m hoping some of you will be able to help with some issues we are having at work. My driver’s consistently work over 48 hours a week to ensure that all depots in the company are visited. To bring the hours down we regularly stand drivers down at the end of the reference period to bring their hours back down to below the 48 limit. This POA was taken at home and although the driver’s weren’t happy about the long hours they accepted it as they knew that they would be getting their time back at the end of period.
Is it a POA? I would say it’s time off (rest period, which can also be used to reduce working time hours) to reduce the average hours they work in a reference period, unless you have them on standby for work at home, but if they are at home because they haven’t got enough hours left then there is no point them being on standby.
Beaker!:
Recently we have had a new manager who is insisting that driver’s should be using thier poa when they are waiting to tip - the waiting time for this is never known and is also insisting that the poa at the end of the reference period must be taken in the staff canteen not at home. As the legal wording of poa is a bit grey would anyone be able to tell me if this is legal?
You have a new manager, but you call the drivers “your drivers”, what is your position in the company?
I believe a POA can be used while waiting even if the wait time is not specified, provided that the driver knows that there is normally a waiting time.
Beaker!:
I’ve had a look at Ross vs stobart and as far as I can tell what the manager is making the driver’s do is incorrect but her is insisting that that court case does not apply to us and is threatening disciplinary action against all the driver’s refusing to tow the line.
TIA
I don’t really know the in and outs of the Ross v Stobart case except what I’ve just read on the internet, but it seems pointless to get drivers to come into work to sit around and wait. Sounds like 19th century working practices to me.
But it’s not a gray area is it, the rules clearly state that the period of waiting must be known in advance before it can be classed as POA, if you don’t know then you cannot classify it as POA, your new manager should know this basic tenant. Let him take legal action, it won’t get very far before someone with a touch of common puts a stop to it.
BillyHunt:
But it’s not a gray area is it, the rules clearly state that the period of waiting must be known in advance before it can be classed as POA, if you don’t know then you cannot classify it as POA, your new manager should know this basic tenant. Let him take legal action, it won’t get very far before someone with a touch of common puts a stop to it.
“period of availability” means a period during which the mobile worker is not required to remain at his workstation, but is
required to be available to answer any calls to start or resume driving or to carry out other work , including periods
during which the mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being transported by a ferry or by a train as well as periods of waiting
at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibitions;
“period of availability” means a period during which the mobile worker is not required to remain at his workstation, but is
required to be available to answer any calls to start or resume driving or to carry out other work , including periods
during which the mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being transported by a ferry or by a train as well as periods of waiting
at frontiers and those due to traffic prohibitions;
The workstation is the cab/driving seat (or, if the job entails loading etc, the trailer and/or the loading bay where he’s actually working). A canteen etc near the workplace would be the ideal location for a POA as he would be available to answer calls to start or resume driving/work. Being sat at home doesn’t satisfy this (unless he happens to live close to the workplace).
Not that it’s relevant here - A driver who has been stood down because his working hours over the reference period are too high is not “available” for more work…
Roymondo:
The workstation is the cab/driving seat (or, if the job entails loading etc, the trailer and/or the loading bay where he’s actually working). A canteen etc near the workplace would be the ideal location for a POA as he would be available to answer calls to start or resume driving/work. Being sat at home doesn’t satisfy this (unless he happens to live close to the workplace).
Not that it’s relevant here - A driver who has been stood down because his working hours over the reference period are too high is not “available” for more work…
I would say your workstation includes all the premises that is at the drivers main base.
“workstation” means
(a) the location of the main place of business of the undertaking for which the person performing mobile transport
activities carries out duties, together with its various subsidiary places of business, regardless of whether they are
located in the same place as its head office or its main place of business;
(b) the vehicle which the person performing mobile road transport activities uses when he carries out duties; or
(c) any other place in which activities connected with transport are carried out.
I agree about the second point though, the driver would not be available to restart work.
The reason she might be insisting your drivers use POA in the canteen might be because if you are at home, it could be assumed you have given your drivers a days holiday, which still counts as 8hrs towards the WTD and wont reduce your average hours that much. Whereas, sitting in the canteen for an 8hr shift could be claimed as being on POA which might count as zero hours towards your WTD, helping bring your average down a good bit.
As said before, stick it on break if you don’t know how long the delay getting tipped is in advance is, and you might not have these problems.
damoq:
The reason she might be insisting your drivers use POA in the canteen might be because if you are at home, it could be assumed you have given your drivers a days holiday, which still counts as 8hrs towards the WTD and wont reduce your average hours that much. Whereas, sitting in the canteen for an 8hr shift could be claimed as being on POA which might count as zero hours towards your WTD, helping bring your average down a good bit.
Only your statutory leave count towards your working time for WTD, any other days given do not.
Beaker!:
To bring the hours down we regularly stand drivers down at the end of the reference period to bring their hours back down to below the 48 limit. This POA was taken at home
POA stands for Period of Availability. Being stood down to bring the hours down is NOT POA. It is being stood down. Of course it shouldn’t be taken at work - they are not ‘available’. Being stood down means not being at work.
Beaker!:
Recently we have had a new manager who is insisting that driver’s should be using thier poa when they are waiting to tip - the waiting time for this is never known and is also insisting that the poa at the end of the reference period must be taken in the staff canteen not at home.
Break can be used just as effectively as POA (provided the drivers are paid for that time). Again - there is no POA at the end of the reference period. If hours have exceeded the 48hrs then the drivers are not available.
damoq:
The reason she might be insisting your drivers use POA in the canteen might be because if you are at home, it could be assumed you have given your drivers a days holiday, which still counts as 8hrs towards the WTD and wont reduce your average hours that much. Whereas, sitting in the canteen for an 8hr shift could be claimed as being on POA which might count as zero hours towards your WTD, helping bring your average down a good bit.
Only your statutory leave count towards your working time for WTD, any other days given do not.
I thought it was only if you had used up all of your annual leave that you didn’t have to count days off towards the WTD. I’m probably wrong but this was how it was explained to me a good few years back when I had to reduce my hours for getting close to going over the 48hr average. I thought I’d be able to take some days off to compensate but was told it didn’t work like that.
If they aren’t working, then the mode should be switched to either POA or break. If its on other work, then that could be classed as an incorrect use of mode switch.
If your stood down at the end of a reference period then your stood down. You would technically be on rest, as no other mode would suitable.
Get them to make better use of the mode switch and then you wont have a problem at the end of the reference period.
The reason the drivers are not using break while waiting has probably got something to do with the OPs statement “This POA was taken at home and although the driver’s weren’t happy about the long hours they accepted it as they knew that they would be getting their time back at the end of period”.
If they use break instead of other work presumably they will still be doing the long hours but without the days off near the end of the reference period.
From what the OP has said it seems like the best solution for the drivers is to get the manager to accept that the days they’re stood down should be taken at home not in the canteen.
bobdebouwer:
If they aren’t working, then the mode should be switched to either POA or break. If its on other work, then that could be classed as an incorrect use of mode switch.
bobdebouwer:
If they aren’t working, then the mode should be switched to either POA or break. If its on other work, then that could be classed as an incorrect use of mode switch.
Really!
No not really … well not in the real world anyway
Given that the purpose of the regulations is to see that drivers get enough break and rest, as long as the required breaks are taken and recorded I can’t see a DVSA bod complaining that a driver had booked other work when he was having a break.
Booking other work when on break would mean that in order to keep the records straight the driver would be having more breaks than legally required, so what’s he going to be penalised for
Bloody POI twaddle…what a load of tosh…we are the only country in the EU that worries about this tosh, i have never used it and never will, just put it on break as has been said.
The whole thing should be binned from the WTD legislation, it’s no wonder people get into trouble over such a complicated mess of a rule.
