newmercman:
Container haulage in the UK is very different to most other countries, apart from a little dabble with Freightliner not much goes on the choo choo, whereas everywhere else the train takes the strain.
In the US and Canada, probably Australia too, the train does the bulk of the work and the local deliveries are undertaken by drayage outfits, the only exception being reefer boxes (in Canada) these run from the meat plants in Manitoba all the way to Vancouver (1500miles) on the back of
The fact is containers and trailers are both used for intermodal freight operations and if intermodal rail/road transport was more efficient,( given a level playing field in regards to fuel taxation ),than just sending freight by road,there would have been no such thing as a large scale long distance sector of the road transport industry,which grew throughout North America etc etc by actually taking market share from rail.The only reason why that situation is now being reversed is because of a deliberate government policy of switching freight from road to rail by using punitive taxation and truck regulation policies targeted at road transport,in order to make the choice,of sending freight by road,over long distances, less economically attractive if not totally economically unviable thereby effectively removing that choice.
It’s no surprise that it’s the Canadian road transport industry that seems to be the last one left with any scope for growth and opportunities being that the Canadian government hasn’t totally sold out to the big business rail freight sector ( yet ).
It’s also no surprise that there doesn’t seem to be enough of a strong long distance sector of the US road transport industry left to compete with the Canadian one to take adavantage of what remains of the long distance North/South Canadian/US freight transport market which isn’t subject to the same amount of over capacity as the US domestic East/West freight transport market is now ( cause by growth in the rail freight industry and a reversal of the situation in which road transport took market share from rail ) which was the life blood of the US road transport industry before US politicians sold out to the big business rail freight interests in a similar way to which the British government has done.
Ironically if you and kr are right,about rail being better for long distance freight transport,then it’s only a matter of time before the Canadian road transport industry is subject to similar pressures forcing it into just local work as rail takes an ever larger market share of both East/West domestic long distance traffic and Canada/US North/South traffic.
The fact is allowing rail to reverse the situation,in which the long distance sector of the road tranport industry grew at the expense of rail,will put the road transport industry back to where it was in the early 20th century.
More a case of lots of USA hauliers don’t want the agrivation of crossing the border and the average American mentality of possessing a passport and going to another country.
Canadian haulage has grown around the necessity of trading with its neighbor so the haulage industry had grown to accommodate that.
I think it’s more a case of the choice between local/intermodal zb type work for many if they’re lucky or the US idea of the dole with no health cover and live on the streets etc etc if they’re not.
kr79:
Yeah night trunking up the M1 you were living the dream.
Early 20 th century a roads no bypasses 20 mph obviously the train would win but today road wins on flexibility hands down.
The number of hgv trucks licensed to run in the uk has hardly changed since ww2 just the size of vehicle.
The percentage of freight on the railway hasn’t massively changed other than in your head.
If somehow rail managed to nick even 10% more work it couldn’t cope
Intermodal rail freight traffic actually grew by 10% just between 2011-2012.I think the rest of your figures can be taken with the same credibility.
All the ones I speak to cross cross the USA and many cover the entire lower 48 but many have a mental block when it comes to the border.
Where us working for Canadian firms have an advantage is we can’t load internally in the USA so we run down to say Texas we have to reload for Canada so we often have two or three days driving unload reload then another two or three days driving. USA firms can do what they want so its often a case of lots of hops of a few hundred miles here and there. It’s about keeping the trucks loaded and earning.
I had it this week in Canada I left the yard with a load to edmonton Alberta about 900 miles. Tipped reloaded in edmonton to unity sassketchwan tipped there reloaded same place with four drops on the way home. Just the wAy it goes its not all big runs if 2000 miles.
kr79:
All the ones I speak to cross cross the USA and many cover the entire lower 48 but many have a mental block when it comes to the border.
Where us working for Canadian firms have an advantage is we can’t load internally in the USA so we run down to say Texas we have to reload for Canada so we often have two or three days driving unload reload then another two or three days driving. USA firms can do what they want so its often a case of lots of hops of a few hundred miles here and there. It’s about keeping the trucks loaded and earning.
I had it this week in Canada I left the yard with a load to edmonton Alberta about 900 miles. Tipped reloaded in edmonton to unity sassketchwan tipped there reloaded same place with four drops on the way home. Just the wAy it goes its not all big runs if 2000 miles.
In an environment where rail is increasingly seen as the accepted mode for long haul freight movements it’ll obviously be a case of road transport having to take whatever it can get obviously involving an ever increasing amount of relatively short runs.As I’ve said it’s no surprise that there’d be more scope remaining for North/South US/Canada long distance road traffic compared to the long distance ( especially East/West domestic US traffic ) which is mainly what the long haul sector of the US road transport industry was based on.
The question concerning the continuing desirability of Canada,as a worthwhile destination for ex pat Brits,is the future of the long haul sector of the Canadian road transport industry.As you’ve pointed out there it’s my bet that the idea will seem less worthwhile if that sector of the Canadian road transport industry goes the same way of the US one.
It’s not trains that affect the USA drivers doing shorter runs if your a company man you go where your told that’s the joys of been a wage slave. Plenty of owner drivers doing big trips but you can’t just do them and sit if it don’t suit you there are bills to pay and customers to keep happy.
If Canadian hauliers could load internally in the USA it would screw the job in my eyes. Not because of distances covered but as it is we get home every week or so but American drivers just drift around sometimes for months on end.
I don’t mind doing the short multi drops in Canada keeps it intresting and we get paid collection and delivery money to make up for dropping miles.
kr79:
Yeah night trunking up the M1 you were living the dream.
Early 20 th century a roads no bypasses 20 mph obviously the train would win but today road wins on flexibility hands down.
The number of hgv trucks licensed to run in the uk has hardly changed since ww2 just the size of vehicle.
The percentage of freight on the railway hasn’t massively changed other than in your head.
If somehow rail managed to nick even 10% more work it couldn’t cope
Intermodal rail freight traffic actually grew by 10% just between 2011-2012.I think the rest of your figures can be taken with the same credibility.
Yes but did the total freight moved change by much.
The figures about vehicles is from commercial motor
kr79:
Short sea? Is that like Europe only as opposed to further away
Sorry for the delay replying, been out and about.
Basically, yes. Short Sea and Deep Sea are maritime terms, and strictly speaking refer to the depth of the channels and the size of vessels hence able to use them IIRC, or at least that’s where the labels came from. (I could be completely misinformed on that bit mind, so don’t quote me!)
In practice, though, Short Sea is Europe/North Africa and goes on smaller ships, where Deep Sea covers the Americas and the Far East etc and is carried on the big “super ships” with much deeper hulls.
Short Sea containers are in direct competition with the ferry trailer market, indeed many actually go by ferry - think 2XL, ECS etc. Therefore the work is more physical - more pump-trucking, although that’s died back a LOT in the last 5 years - and the drivers are expected to strip out their own open-siders and supervise the loading of flatracks in a way the standard Deep Sea container drivers most people think of never do. We’re responsible for box condition - no handy bods to check them for us, it’s down to the driver - and handball is rare enough to be worth commenting on, most cargo is palletised. There’s also more groupage, plus freight sometimes gets trans-shipped into tautliners to enable customers without ramps or bays to unload - at a cost, obviously. The reload rate is also much, much higher, to the point where it’s unusual to run back to port empty.
Not all container work is the same. People don’t realise that. In fact, quite a few get a shock when they first start on Short Sea and find their bunk time much reduced!!!
kr79:
Your all waisting your time as Carryfast thinks convoy and smokey and the bandit were documentarys.
]
Actually it was more a case of knowing the difference between the type of driving career which I and others had during the late 20 th century compared to that of my grandfather who worked at a time when the idea of road transport doing all the local zb while rail did all the rest was taken to it’s logical conclusion.
You drove a night trunk for a parcel company, the boxes left whether they were fully loaded or empty, sounds akin to a rail service to me.
kr79:
Yeah night trunking up the M1 you were living the dream.
Early 20 th century a roads no bypasses 20 mph obviously the train would win but today road wins on flexibility hands down.
The number of hgv trucks licensed to run in the uk has hardly changed since ww2 just the size of vehicle.
The percentage of freight on the railway hasn’t massively changed other than in your head.
If somehow rail managed to nick even 10% more work it couldn’t cope
Intermodal rail freight traffic actually grew by 10% just between 2011-2012.I think the rest of your figures can be taken with the same credibility.
Yes but did the total freight moved change by much.
The figures about vehicles is from commercial motor
10% ‘growth’ in uk intermodal freight traffic moved by rail in a year would by definition mean that growth in traffic being the result of a shift in that traffic from road to rail.
kr79:
Your all waisting your time as Carryfast thinks convoy and smokey and the bandit were documentarys.
]
Actually it was more a case of knowing the difference between the type of driving career which I and others had during the late 20 th century compared to that of my grandfather who worked at a time when the idea of road transport doing all the local zb while rail did all the rest was taken to it’s logical conclusion.
You drove a night trunk for a parcel company, the boxes left whether they were fully loaded or empty, sounds akin to a rail service to me.
I think the problem in this case was more a case of empty skeles not empty boxes because the loads that were going by truck are increasingly going by train instead and in all cases no one will have a job for long if they’re hauling empty boxes all over the country.
kr79:
Yeah night trunking up the M1 you were living the dream.
Early 20 th century a roads no bypasses 20 mph obviously the train would win but today road wins on flexibility hands down.
The number of hgv trucks licensed to run in the uk has hardly changed since ww2 just the size of vehicle.
The percentage of freight on the railway hasn’t massively changed other than in your head.
If somehow rail managed to nick even 10% more work it couldn’t cope
Intermodal rail freight traffic actually grew by 10% just between 2011-2012.I think the rest of your figures can be taken with the same credibility.
Yes but did the total freight moved change by much.
The figures about vehicles is from commercial motor
10% ‘growth’ in uk intermodal freight traffic moved by rail in a year would by definition mean that growth in traffic being the result of a shift in that traffic from road to rail.
Yes but there’s still trucks involved and despite what you think there’s ■■■■ all money in container lorrys pounding up and down the road at the suicidal rates they do it for.
kr79:
Your all waisting your time as Carryfast thinks convoy and smokey and the bandit were documentarys.
]
Actually it was more a case of knowing the difference between the type of driving career which I and others had during the late 20 th century compared to that of my grandfather who worked at a time when the idea of road transport doing all the local zb while rail did all the rest was taken to it’s logical conclusion.
You drove a night trunk for a parcel company, the boxes left whether they were fully loaded or empty, sounds akin to a rail service to me.
I think the problem in this case was more a case of empty skeles not empty boxes because the loads that were going by truck are increasingly going by train instead and in all cases no one will have a job for long if they’re hauling empty boxes all over the country.
You have to remember that the container is a load, and as long as you are carrying one, then you and your boss are getting paid. If you are willing to do a thousand miles for a penny per mile, the shipping company will let you
Empty flats, empty heads, empty skellies, empty vessels, all the same family.
Most of the successful hauliers have not made money by doing big distances, they have made it by staying loaded.
One driver doing 3 loads to Manchester in a day is far more productive than one driver going to Barcelona where the vehicle is parked up for 60% of the day. You call that zb. I call it good business.
Bang on when I done cobelfret 3 or 4 basil dons from purfleet at 130 a trip was a good business and could make a living at it but one up to the midlands at that kind of money was crap with the fuel taken out
kr79:
It’s not trains that affect the USA drivers doing shorter runs if your a company man you go where your told that’s the joys of been a wage slave.
The fact is there’s no way that the growth in the North American road/rail intermodal rail freight industry could sustain such levels of growth as those documented without a similar reduction being shown in the long haul sector of the North American road transport industry.As I’ve said it’s no surprise that the North/South Canada/US long distance sector has been less affected than the East/West domestic US and Canadian routes.Simple maths and economics says that any growth in rail freight’s share of that market will be at the expense of the road transport industry’s market share.Which obviously means that growth in the rail freight industry will be directly reflected in a similar decrease in long distance road transport operations.
The result being the choice,for both employed and owner drivers,of just short distance type work of one form or another, ( if they can find it ),or find a different job doing something else.I think that applies to much of what remains of the US road transport industry at least since the massive growth in intermodal rail freight there during the end of the 20th century.As for Canada it’s all about the question of what happens to those North/South Canada/US routes in the future that will decide,for at least some drivers,wether it’s worth bothering to move there to work as an ex pat or as a Canadian.
It’s my guess,that like many US drivers,the Canadian drivers have seen the writing on the wall.Ironically I think maybe that’s because doing short haul tramping runs would probably mean less time at home than long haul domestic East/West full loads in the North American case.While over here it’s probably a case of many uk drivers won’t want the aggravation of spending loads of time driving locally and probably spending more time involved loading and tipping stuff than behind the wheel driving anywhere.While for owner drivers it’ll be all that and the issue of the catch 22 of it being uneconomic to do long distance runs ( because of the fuel costs ) even if they want to and overcapacity in what remains of the short haul sector of the industry that’s assuming they’d even want to do the job.
As I’ve said the logical conclusion of all this will probably set the road transport industry back to where it was in the early 20 th century in the long term.Unless there are some massive changes in the way the road transport industry views it’s relationship with the rail freight industry as it did in mid 20 th century America at least.
kr79:
Bang on when I done cobelfret 3 or 4 basil dons from purfleet at 130 a trip was a good business and could make a living at it but one up to the midlands at that kind of money was crap with the fuel taken out
Which is just what the government and the rail freight operators want.It’s all about the fuel cost difference between what the rail freight operators pay for fuel v road transport.If they make that fuel cost a level playing field then it would all be a different story.While it’s obvious that short distance rates don’t reflect the simple maths of tonne/mile productivety figures which mean that those short distance rates are unsustainable in the long term.Although it’s no surprise that issue won’t be brought to light until the rail freight industry has finally got a strangle hold over most types of intermodal rates being offered with the knock on effect which that will have on all types of short distance work.
It’s nothing to do with rail it’s the fact lorrys are queuing up to do the work as there is overcapacity in the haulage industry due to the big firms willing to go for the big turnover low margin business model and to many small firms willing to work for sod all to have a truck.
Us Brits who have come to Canada are in reality screwing the job for the locals same as the poles in the uk. In. This day and age how many people want to come in to an industry where you are away all the time living in a tin box on mileage pay with no guarantees what you will earn. You will always get a few locals who will want to do it for the hell of it. But in reality what kind of life is it. So rather than looking at the terms and conditions they open the market up to forgiven labour and if you pull up to a Canadian truck in the states the driver could be from anywhere.
Look at the Brits who are out here us who use the forum are lets face it truck geeks as we come on here and talk about trucks in our spare time. I got in to trucks from going with my dad as a kid newmercman is the same and nianiamh but the next generation isn’t coming through that way. Lots of the other Brits I’ve met are the same or its a route to move here for a different life for there family.
I’m living it at the moment i left school with no qualifications as I knew I wanted to be a lorry driver but I’m now doing something out of the ordinary and seeing more of the world. When the time comes for me and my family to decide yes this is deffently the place we want to live il stuck with the job but I don’t think il still want to be doing long distance work in 10 or 15 years time. It’s great fun and interesting but missing out of family life ■■■■■.
I know plenty of long distance men who loved there job but regretted missing out on seeing there kids grow up. That’s why there’s a long distance driver shortage nothing to do with trains.
kr79:
It’s nothing to do with rail it’s the fact lorrys are queuing up to do the work as there is overcapacity in the haulage industry due to the big firms willing to go for the big turnover low margin business model and to many small firms willing to work for sod all to have a truck.
Us Brits who have come to Canada are in reality screwing the job for the locals same as the poles in the uk. In. This day and age how many people want to come in to an industry where you are away all the time living in a tin box on mileage pay with no guarantees what you will earn. You will always get a few locals who will want to do it for the hell of it. But in reality what kind of life is it. So rather than looking at the terms and conditions they open the market up to forgiven labour and if you pull up to a Canadian truck in the states the driver could be from anywhere.
Look at the Brits who are out here us who use the forum are lets face it truck geeks as we come on here and talk about trucks in our spare time. I got in to trucks from going with my dad as a kid newmercman is the same and nianiamh but the next generation isn’t coming through that way. Lots of the other Brits I’ve met are the same or its a route to move here for a different life for there family.
I’m living it at the moment i left school with no qualifications as I knew I wanted to be a lorry driver but I’m now doing something out of the ordinary and seeing more of the world. When the time comes for me and my family to decide yes this is deffently the place we want to live il stuck with the job but I don’t think il still want to be doing long distance work in 10 or 15 years time. It’s great fun and interesting but missing out of family life ■■■■■.
I know plenty of long distance men who loved there job but regretted missing out on seeing there kids grow up. That’s why there’s a long distance driver shortage nothing to do with trains.
The issue as to why they want a driver to spend at least 2-3 weeks out on the road and then only allow often as little as 2-3 days off between jobs is a totally different one to the issue of the general move towards sending long haul freight by rail instead of by road.Although maybe it’s all about trying to get as much work out of the wagon and driver as possible to make up for the fuel costs and fixed costs v revenues.
The fact is short haul work doesn’t pay in the long term.
In which case the best option would be for long haul drivers and the empoyers to sort out the issue of finding a way to provide longer time off between runs.There are examples in the US of employers thinking about increasing wage levels from around $40,000 pa up to around $60,000-$90,000 to help long haul driver retention.Instead of leaving the wage the same but employing two drivers on a 2-3 weeks on 2-3 weeks off rota instead.
Short haul long haul hauling gold bullion hauling liquid ■■■■ it doesn’t matter any haulage is viable if you are getting the right rate.
The reason they are looking at raising wages is to attract drivers you need to offer an incentive to make up for been away for most people. Why be away for say $800 dollars a week If you can earn that or not a lot less and be home every night.
kr79:
Short haul long haul hauling gold bullion hauling liquid [zb] it doesn’t matter any haulage is viable if you are getting the right rate.
The reason they are looking at raising wages is to attract drivers you need to offer an incentive to make up for been away for most people. Why be away for say $800 dollars a week If you can earn that or not a lot less and be home every night.
Yes but you still ain’t going to get the ‘right rate’ anyway even if you did want to haul liquid zb etc etc locally rather than full load long distance freight work if everyone is baling out of long haul work to do local work instead, because the rail freight industry wants all long haul road freight transport to be made uneconomic.
I think you missed the bit where I said why more than double the wage of those long haul US drivers from $40,000 up to around $90,000 in order to provide an ‘incentive’ for being away 2-3 weeks at a time with just two days at home,which still won’t actually fix the problem of drivers never getting home enough. When they could just employ two drivers on a 2-3 weeks on 2-3 weeks off rota which would cost no more,possibly less,and fix the actual problem of drivers not spending enough time at home.
It’s my bet,that the issue of making drivers spend too long out on the road,when there’s no need to,is just a red herring to cover up the fact that the road haulage industry over there really just wants to follow your idea,by throwing in the towel, concerning the issue of competing with and fighting the big rail freight industry interests.By trying to convince drivers that working on local zb work is better for them.
if everyone is baling out of long haul work to do local work instead, because the rail freight industry wants all long haul road freight transport to be made uneconomic. 