East European Drivers

[scanny77]

brit pete:
Scanny ask a few of those who travel abroad if they know the traffic rules for the countries that they drive through,you will be surprised at the answer, i do belive, Do you , I do not and i live abroad , yes you are right to complain when those persons who come to work in the UK do not have the required standard as we expect,but if these persons come from a EEC MEMBER then they can be employed with out type of testng the same goes for you me and uncle tom cobbler ,when we wish to work in France,spain, austria etc ,

What is upsetting is that there seems to be a large amount of persons who come to the UK looking for employment and are not qualified to the standards that we have and expect and this will have to be addressed,one way would be to write to the Dept of transport stateing your veiws and fears concerning the use of such labour and it would help if one could gather proof
and send this in as well which will in turn make the case stronger for a better system which will then bring better and higher standards of these persons ,

fair point Pete but im sure the drivers here who do travel overseas do try to gain some knowledge before they leave. they probably try to stay within the laws of the relevant countries as far as they reasonably can.
some foreign registered trucks over here blatantly disregard our traffic laws and get away with it. i wouldnt mind too much if the standards and enforcement was even across the board but it isnt. the standards are higher within general british drivers and we are still over enforced by all authorities from what i have read. most of us are probably too scared to flout the laws whereas the foreign drivers know that it is either impossible for the british police to prosecute them or its too much hassle. in a way i can understand that (not that i agree with it) if you can pick on a national and get an easy prosecution rather than cut through a load of red tape in the hope that a prosecution would be the end result, wouldnt you go down that road? the punishments dont match either. i read about a foreign driver killing someone and got a couple of grand fine. if that had been a national, they would be doing time along with a driving ban. where is our racist card with this type of treatment?

[Lasurazes]

leslie g heath:
A problem nowadays is as soon as you mention a problem regarding a different nationality, the race card is used to end the debate.

correct, as allways, and it’s being played here to a mad degree again!

My first post made it quite plain my concern was to the training these drivers are getting.
I know of at least one major distribution depot where **the drivers were told “next year you will do as you are told, we are and can get enough drivers from other countries as we want”.I know because i was there.**If you think the companies and agencies employ these people out of the goodness of their hearts, think again, ultimately wages will be driven down, its called supply and demand/market forces.

well said leslie, it’s the way it is going mate! i bolded that just in case anyone might miss it!

[Lasurazes]

scanny77:

Mal:
the racist card has been played to bleeding death!

it will continue this way too Mal. it is never challenged and it is always made legal providing it is not used by those who really need it

well to dare challenge it youre soon accused of just about everything evilly racist up to wanting the rebuilding the gas chambers!

[ohterry]

Mal:

scanny77:

Mal:
the racist card has been played to bleeding death!

it will continue this way too Mal. it is never challenged and it is always made legal providing it is not used by those who really need it

well to dare challenge it youre soon accused of just about everything evilly racist up to wanting the rebuilding the gas chambers!

last time i commented on a similar thread mal vince accused me of being racist and all hell let loose.
hence my withdrawl from this here thread.
as good as its getting.

[Lasurazes]

i dont know who exactly this post of yours was aimed at oliver, seeing as you were too impolite to use a name, since there was a refernce to a few points i made i’ll take it it was to me.

guest1:
The EU is our - the UK’s - biggest single trading partner. The price of EU membership is labour mobility.

is that what we voted for? i think youd have a hard time proving it, so thats nowt but your opinion.

Is it your contention that we bar ourselves from trading with our single biggest economic partner,

no, didnt say so, you are supposing that. fwiw i reckon norways got it right where trades concerned.

stick the foreigners on a train back home and try to function as a small island in an otherwise rapidly unifying global economy? I would suggest that this would be unwise. Who will our new, improved, ethnically cleansed nation deal with then?

again, YOUR words, in fact im ■■■■■■ off with your inference here mate, you have no right to infer “ethnic cleansing” whatsoever, where did i say anything REMOTELY like that? post it or take your poisionous remarks back id say!

It is for you to decide as to whether or not I am being patronising here.

You know that thing that keeps a count of your hours. It’s a clock. It measures time. Which - guess what - moves on. This is 2006, and we live in a rather smaller world.

that was patronising, if you cannot see that, arrogance has surely blinded you.

My apologies if that is the impression you have derived — it was certainly not one that I meant to convey.

apology accepted

I would, however, urge you to accept that we have an equal right to our views. It is, after all, the basis of a democracy.

where have you been told your views are not of equal validity? i also dont try and lock debate by telling people to “get over it” either, maybe you aught to give that some thought?

Which brings me to the reason as to why I find some of the observations expressed here so frightening. Back in the early ‘30’s, when the German economy headed around the U-Bend, people looked for a scapegoat. They found one, and, a few years later, six million scapegoats had been done away with. I’m rather keen for that not to happen again. Condemning people on the basis of their ethnicity is — and this is merely my point of view - a very dangerous path to take.

in a post riddled with ugly inferences this is the worst. it is disgusting how you have twisted the debate about the rights or wrongs of workers coming here, into likening what happened in the third reich in the 40’s. it is a pretty low and tired tactic, im going to demand you prove where i or anyone, has demanded any kind of harm or sending back to anywhere of foriegn nationals, never mind gas and murder them! either take that shrill over the top pc rant back, prove that statement, or are you are a liar?

[brit_pete]

This is the reason that the EU has put into place regulations that will ensure all drivers will have to partake in a exam/test which willbring the level of driveing standards to a higher level,
And all those firms who have taken on personnel who do not meet this critiria
will be really deep in it,then.
The way to combat peoples fear about the low standards of commercial driveing will be to investigate,gather evidence, and to submit a report to those who will try and ensure that the injustices which if they are proven
are dealt with,

THERE ARE GOOD AND BAD apples all over and only a strict and honest
system will stop those who are incompetent from gaining employment
AND last of all:::::: Not all those who come looking for work are usless as
every one thinks some you will find have more qualifications in education
etc etc ,

[Lasurazes]

ohterry:

Mal:

scanny77:

Mal:
the racist card has been played to bleeding death!

it will continue this way too Mal. it is never challenged and it is always made legal providing it is not used by those who really need it

well to dare challenge it youre soon accused of just about everything evilly racist up to wanting the rebuilding the gas chambers!

last time i commented on a similar thread mal vince accused me of being racist and all hell let loose.
hence my withdrawl from this here thread.
as good as its getting.

i dont blame you terry, i aught to know better!
we’re down to ■■■■ germany being bandied about now, wonder how much lower it can go!

[Lasurazes]

Spardo:
A good, well argued case Oliver. I have been watching this (familiar) debate
with my (usual) dismay, but have refrained from commenting because of the
excess of heat, as opposed to light, being generated.
Salut, David.

stick the foreigners on a train back home and try to function as a small island in an otherwise rapidly unifying global economy? I would suggest that this would be unwise. Who will our new, improved, ethnically cleansed nation deal with then?

Which brings me to the reason as to why I find some of the observations expressed here so frightening. Back in the early ‘30’s, when the German economy headed around the U-Bend, people looked for a scapegoat. They found one, and, a few years later, six million scapegoats had been done away with. I’m rather keen for that not to happen again. Condemning people on the basis of their ethnicity is — and this is merely my point of view - a very dangerous path to take.

david, the above quotes are “light” we can all disagree mate. but this is ugly, accusing, and untrue, theres no light in this frantic clawing of a dead argument. is it a good argument to put words into peoples mouths? or accuse them of being genocidal racists? its ugly allright!

[smcaul]

guest1:
The EU is our - the UK’s - biggest single trading partner. The price of EU membership is labour mobility.

There is a very big difference between labour mobility and economic migration. To have a mobile labour force is a good thing, but that assumes that renumeration is constant - which is not the case at the moment, hence the economic migration that is taking place.

Is it your contention that we bar ourselves from trading with our single biggest economic partner

Did you not just say we were part of Europe, therefore we are not partners.

stick the foreigners on a train back home and try to function as a small island in an otherwise rapidly unifying global economy?

Unifying!!! what planet are you on, there is China that is making all it can and exporting it, The USA as well as Europe are putting up trade barriers to try and slow down the influx of cheap goods.

Back in the early ‘30’s, when the German economy headed around the U-Bend, people looked for a scapegoat. They found one, and, a few years later, six million scapegoats had been done away with. I’m rather keen for that not to happen again. Condemning people on the basis of their ethnicity is — and this is merely my point of view - a very dangerous path to take.

A very simplistic view of a situation that cost many millions of people their lives. You don’t seem to mention the fact that the rest of the world was also in the middle of a depression, and everyone was looking for scapegoats at that time.

If you are to condemn any one group, condemn the employers.

Fully agree with you there.

They, in turn, will point to their customers — more often than not the supermarkets — who, in turn, will say that their consumers want to pay the cheapest price possible. That consumer, ladies and gentlemen, is us. Anyone who can say that they have never bought any product produced in a low cost manufacturing environment has a right to the moral high ground here. Those of us who cannot are in part responsible for this situation. Demand and supply etc.

Again, a very simplistic view. It is not the consumer who is making billions of £’s profit a year as does Tesco etc.

part time guest worker in the US where he — like these eastern Europeans — is only trying to make a better life for himself

Well you must see the effects of immigration and cheap labour over there. You are no doubt doing a job that has a slightly higher chance of being paid more then minimum wage, just ask the average Joe over there what his views are on Mexicans etc. Most will not have a very high oppinion of them, and for the same reasons that are being discussed here - they are lowering the wages of the people who are already earning at the lower end of the scale. And before anyone goes into one, I have lived and worked in the US so I do know what I am talking about.

[ohterry]

surely this wants locking now.

[smcaul]

ohterry:
surely this wants locking now.

Why? There is still reasoned debate taking place, if it gets locked then I would like to see the justification for it!

[froggy]

How sad is it that some twit as come come up and say that X million died in WW2 but never say that any of then where british fiighting for the right to be british, no they miss that bit out whenever posting on anything that might upset the course of the greater europe.Why are the french and the others not letting in the new eastern block menbers in,easy they are waiting to see what happens in the easy touch ie the UK.

[Lucy]

Ok, so you all have fair warning.

Since this debate is becoming impossible for anyone to truly engage in, with views opposing the majority being ripped apart and taken personally instead of accepted for what they are, opinions, I am going to close this thread before it gets out of hand. I sat up until the early hours “babysitting” it last night, and have no desire to do the same tonight, therefore…

THIS THREAD WILL BE LOCKED AT 10pm

It’s an emotive subject, and I think that given the choice between allowing the thread to go past it’s sell-by date and end up being pulled completely, and accepting that it has now run it’s course and has ceased to allow fair discussion without personal (small “p”) attack, the latter is preferable.

However… I’m going to try something here which I have seen work quite well on another forum. Anyone who has already taken part in this thread (so no new joiners please) may PM me their “last word” on the subject, and I will post them all up in no particular order tomorrow morning. That way you all get one last shot at making your points without reprisal.

Obviously, if it breaks the rules between now and 10pm, it will go completely.

[smcaul]

I think it is a shame that you are going to lock this thread, It is a very emotive subject that will come back, as it has before. Why not just let one thread run and run rather then locking this one. You know as well as I that in a few days/weeks time it will be raised again and you will no doubt feel the need to lock that thread as well. Just leave this one open and all views can be aired here instead.

[Lucy]

Sorry smcaul, but Rikki and I have had a long chat about this one, and there is a limit to what we are prepared to accept on what is, after all, our webspace.

I’ve let the thread run, I’ve babysat it, and I’m now giving you both fair warning and the chance to have a last word after the thread is locked.

Neither of us feel that it is a fair debate at the moment, as anyone daring to go against the anti-polish/east european faction is simply being ripped apart, and very little constructive discussion is possible.

I have no doubt it will appear again, but we both feel that this has now run it’s course, so we are making a compromise between the members’ desire to talk about the subject, and our desire to keep these boards within what we feel is acceptable.

[guest1]

Are not labour mobility and economic migration inextricably linked? If you opt to change jobs for better conditions, then you are exercising your right to mobility in order to improve your economic circumstances. Eastern Europeans now have that right.

Rightly or wrongly successive UK governments — for which we all have the right to vote for or against — have caused the UK to be a part of the EU. We derive vast trading benefits from being a part of one of the world’s largest free trade areas — both by population and value — and this is the price we pay for those benefits. If on the basis of reasoned calculation you feel that those benefits are outweighed by the impact of labour mobility — and no one has as yet produced evidence of any driver losing his job as a result of this — then, by all means suggest that we exit the EU. Unfortunately, you cannot have the benefits without the — supposed — downside. No doubt everyone expressing a view on this thread votes regularly when given the opportunity.

Let’s sort this ■■■■ business while we’re at it. That accusation has not been made. The observation that has been made is this: stereotyping an individual on the basis of ethnicity is — in my view — wrong, and can lead to scapegoating. History has shown exactly where this can end up.There are [zb] poor Polish truck drivers. There are also some rather good ones. I’ve worked with a few. FYI, there are also some teetotal Russians, relatively couth Australians, the odd American who doesn’t believe in fairies and the occasional Englishman who doesn’t give a toss about either football or the weather.

Another issue that might be worthy of consideration is this. These economic migrants are here legally. That means that they pay tax and NI. So, you have people here legally, doing a job that — according to current reckoning — 70,000 other people are not too keen on — and paying their dues so to do. If it hasn’t cost you your job — and, once again I challenge anyone here to demonstrate that they have become unemployed directly as a result of an Eastern European truck driver — then please explain where the problem lies. No one would stop you from trying to make a better life for you and yours. We should not argue with other people — which is, after all, what they are — trying to do the same for theirs.

If it needs stars to get it 'round the word censor, that’s a clue it’s not allowed! L.

[hitch]

the problem the foreigners on English work have is

steering wheel on wrong side
driving on the wrong side
pressure to be as productive as local driver
not knowing where their going

when we / they are on international work
we / they have our own truck which we are familiar with
the steering wheel is on the proper side
there is less pressure to rush
we dont rush cos we dont know where were going sometimes

[smcaul]

guest1:
Are not labour mobility and economic migration inextricably linked?

No. As per my previous post. Having a mobile labour force is vastily different from economic migration - try googleing for the difference.

As for the rest of the post about proving jobs are being lost to imported labour, well if it was that cut and dried then it would be easy to prove, but it is not, no one is doing anything illegal - but that does not alter the fact that drivers wages will drop as a result of cheaper imported labour - the whole point of the EEC is about a level playing field for trade between countries, but this is not happenng - what is happening is that as a richer nation we are subsidisng the poorer ones and people are getting fed up of it, not only in the UK but in all the countries where there has been an influx of cheaper labour, as I pointed out in my earlier post, just look at the problems the US is having in the southern states with the immigrants that are coming accross.

[brit_pete]

sorry try again i love driveing my LKW inthe uk and i am unsure some times of where i have to gothat is a stuipid remark mate

[muckles]

The UK has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Europe and we also have an ageing population who have retired. We need people in the NHS, care homes and many other jobs.
Poland has high unemployment and a younger population, but it also has almost double the rate of economic growth as the UK.

This is the situation at present, but our economic success is down to inflated house prices allowing people to spend. This will change, I think it has started and maybe before long it will be some of us looking for work in low unemployment, booming economies in Europe.