Having a mobile labour force is vastily different from economic migration
Is it? Why would a labour force bother to be mobile if their motivation for being so wasn’t economic?
just look at the problems the US is having in the southern states with the immigrants that are coming accross
Actually, the problem is largely down to the difficulty the Mexicans are having when they try and enter the US legally. it’s widely accepted that these people are vital in doing the jobs that the Americans won’t touch - agricultural labour, low paid cleaning and other service work etc.
Since a) we seem to have achieved a more civil atmosphere and b) there are several people who have been taking part in this thread who have not yet been online, I’ll extend the deadline to 11pm.
That really will be it, however, as I’ll be wanting my bed about then, and have no faith in it continuing sensibly in my absence.
I’m not sure if the US example holds water - most of the irritation in the US at present seems to be based either around industry relocating from the north to the south or outsourcing to emerging markets. In fact, there is a proposed - and widely supported - amnesty for Mexican / LatAms working illegally, the view being that legal equals taxes. I’ve never seen any examples of racist graffiti in Houston or Dallas. The same cannot be said of Northampton.
Labour mobility isn’t economic migration - that was not what was posted. But they are inextricably linked - you move between jobs if that move represents an improvement. Surely that is migration/mobility driven by economic motives?
Having a mobile labour force is vastily different from economic migration
Is it? Why would a labour force bother to be mobile if their motivation for being so wasn’t economic?
You are making an assumption that they are then moving to this country, and spending that money that they have earned here - that is not happening - look back at my earlier post about how their £1 is spent 7 times if they live in the UK but will only be spent once if they take that money out of the country.
just look at the problems the US is having in the southern states with the immigrants that are coming accross
Actually, the problem is largely down to the difficulty the Mexicans are having when they try and enter the US legally. it’s widely accepted that these people are vital in doing the jobs that the Americans won’t touch - agricultural labour, low paid cleaning and other service work etc.
Widely accepted by whom? Not by the friends I still have out there. I am sure the upper middle classes are happy to have them skivvy for them, but lower down the economic ladder people are up in arms - for the same reason we are, that is that wages will be driven down and people will struggle to earn a living and support their families.
Because perhaps one of the main reasons for discussion & debate on such an emotive subject becoming heated, is that there isn’t a forum in the country (let alone this site) where people can discuss or consult. ( without the dreaded threat of “racist” or censorship.)
The thought of being “babysat” during an exchange of opinions, fills me with PC & “Big Brother” thoughts.
I’m afraid that’s the price you pay for people’s inability to respect our forum rules, Tagoat. Trust me, I don’t like it either.
smcaul, surely the whole point of an open and free trading area such as the EU is that money will move just as freely within it as people?
Economic Migration is the movement of people to earn more money. They do this by being a Mobile Labour Force. So the two are inextricably linked. Where they then spend that money is irrelevant as far as these two labels and definitions go.
Because perhaps one of the main reasons for discussion & debate on such an emotive subject becoming heated, is that there isn’t a forum in the country (let alone this site) where people can discuss or consult. ( without the dreaded threat of “racist” or censorship.)
The thought of being “babysat” during an exchange of opinions, fills me with PC & “Big Brother” thoughts.
rather that, then have all out trucknetwar.rather that than have a slanging match and free for all where respected members get slagged off for there airing there thoughts.
i,m not normally arsed about upsetting one or two, but this thread has been killed time and time again, and never fails to cause a mini uproar.
Because perhaps one of the main reasons for discussion & debate on such an emotive subject becoming heated, is that there isn’t a forum in the country (let alone this site) where people can discuss or consult. ( without the dreaded threat of “racist” or censorship.)
The thought of being “babysat” during an exchange of opinions, fills me with PC & “Big Brother” thoughts.
The baby sitting thing is to stop this thread, decending into a lets slag off all East Europeans or you’ll all Racist. which gets the debate nowhere.
Although that seemed to be where it was heading it seems to have picked up. And it seems that most of those posting now are making reasoned arguments, even though I don’t agree with many of them, but that seems normal for me on this subject.
guest1:
Let’s sort this ■■■■ business while we’re at it. That accusation has not been made. The observation that has been made is this: stereotyping an individual on the basis of ethnicity is — in my view — wrong, and can lead to scapegoating. History has shown exactly where this can end up.There are [zb] poor Polish truck drivers. There are also some rather good ones. I’ve worked with a few. FYI, there are also some teetotal Russians, relatively couth Australians, the odd American who doesn’t believe in fairies and the occasional Englishman who doesn’t give a toss about either football or the weather.
that aint soreted it at all. the inference was there, otherwise why even mention it? did anyone else mention it? you do know what inference means, you must do as a journalist. duck it all you like guest, but the inference was there allright. why was the jibe about ethnic cleansing in there too? you were the only one to mention it. also why mention sending people back? who suggested that be done? so take it as sorted in your own mind by all means, but i stand by what i said and it is far from sorted!
anyway, as suggested by lucy in an earlier post i’ll just have a final say as a contributor to the thread, if ive understood the suggestion right?
my last words on this thread are simply that im offended personally, and downright sick and tired of the racist card being played in cases like this thread. when there is no evidence let alone concrete proof, that the motives are racist. this will not change on here im certain, because for one thing it has been deemed by luce that racism as a desriptive will do, even though it is clearly not racist! of course, that just aint right as the word has a vile and specific meaning that is light years away from wanting what you believe is best for the country you live in, one i might say made up of all types of race.
so thats me done with this thread, its a waste of time trying to put the point over without being slurred and accused of something im not, in a feeble attempt at an argument. so i better keep me beak out of such “debates” in future!
Having lived and worked in Germany and Holland Im glad I didnt have to put up with this crap from other DRIVERS.When was it decided that U.K. drivers were better than everyone else.Also Brits have worked for worse conditions abroad than the locals.cheers Joe.
Mal, you can post away to your heart’s content until 11pm tonight. The last word bit comes in after it’s locked, at which point you just send it to me by PM and I’ll stick them all up tomorrow.
For the record, the decision that’s been made about the future of this thread is about Rikki and I for once exercising the right to decide what we consider to be acceptable levels of debate on our webspace, and in this case is far more about the manner in which it has been conducted than the actual content.
On a personal note, I genuinely don’t see that guest1 is “infering” anything. He merely expressed an opinion and drew an analogy with which to illustrate it. I can’t see any point at which it refers to one person, otherwise it would have been edited, as he was for language.
Lucy:
smcaul, surely the whole point of an open and free trading area such as the EU is that money will move just as freely within it as people?
Economic Migration is the movement of people to earn more money. They do this by being a Mobile Labour Force. So the two are inextricably linked. Where they then spend that money is irrelevant as far as these two labels and definitions go.
Perhaps I did not put my point too well, The imported labour force are more mobile labour then economic migrants - if they were migrants we would have the benefit of that money staying in our economy - but they are merely mobile labour who take money out of the economy - They are financial migrants rather then economic migrants, the difference being that economic migrants would want to move over here completley - financial ones only want to earn the money to send home. the job they do would be filled by a UK worker - but might cost more to do it - this just means that the govt. get more tax etc so we all win, mobile labour is not the way forward.
And unfortunalty once the money leaves these shores it is unlikely to return - we do not export enough - so our balance of trade is not exactly balanced, even though we are part of the EU if we cant sell anyting to anyone then that money does not come back to our economy.
smcaul:
And unfortunalty once the money leaves these shores it is unlikely to return - we do not export enough - so our balance of trade is not exactly balanced, even though we are part of the EU if we cant sell anyting to anyone then that money does not come back to our economy.
Although we don’t export much physical goods like we used to, we are still a major exporter of invisible exports, like financial services.
Ok. It’s 11pm, and time we called this one quits and took some time out. The topic will no doubt re-emerge again in the future, but it’s “had it’s day” for now, so please leave a few weeks before posting it all over again!
Anyone who has already taken part in the thread and who has a “last word” they would like to add should PM their post to me in it’s entirety. I will post up any such contributions tomorrow evening verbatim (within the rules, obviously) and credited, and in no particular order.
Deadline for this is 6pm on Wednesday 25th January.
Spardo:
My ‘last word’ is not to further the arguement but to clarify one of my friend Mal’s posts regarding what I said.
He quoted me :
Mal:
Spardo wrote:
A good, well argued case Oliver. I have been watching this (familiar) debate
with my (usual) dismay, but have refrained from commenting because of the
excess of heat, as opposed to light, being generated.
Salut, David.
and then went on to quote Guest 1 but without crediting the quotes to him, making it look as if he was continueing to quote me, which he was not, and it was not me that said the things that he objected to. Nor would I have, even though I believed that Oliver was not accusing anyone in particular.
Mal:
david, the above quotes are “light” ■■ we can all disagree mate.
No disagreement there, it was my point entirely, the debate was not shedding as much light as heat, as I said.
TheBear:
As one of those who got slaughtered for daring to stick up for the Eastern European drivers, I have just this to say.
Mal, I think you got it totally wrong in assuming the journo was having a go at you. I read his post and recognised his theory as it was meant to be read. I thought it was a good analogy.
As a matter of interest, you are saying you are not saying all these people should be sent back… so what do you want done with them?? Left to scrounge off the social?? You cannot have your cake and eat it, mate.
The only way to stop Eastern drivers working here is to close the borders … you know that isn’t going to happen. Oh, so you want them to go into anoher industry?? The dirty jobs that no one else wants?
I will stand by my view that a good many Eastern drivers have more knowledge in their little finger than many of the so called drivers in this country. My views on many of the drivers that use this forum are well known by those that I call my pals on here. Chauffeurs is all most of them are!!!
Having lived and worked in Germany and Holland Im glad I didnt have to put up with this crap from other DRIVERS.When was it decided that U.K. drivers were better than everyone else.Also Brits have worked for worse conditions abroad than the locals.cheers Joe.