Driver cpc scam

[mezzzz1211]

trubster:
“We charge £80.75. The DSA take £8.75. The VAT man takes £12.00. Total deductions £20.25 leaving us with £60.00.”

The vat man will not take £12 unless the whole £72.00 is profit, if you have to buy equipment etc this is all deductable

The rent on the little training room is in the building you rent so no additional costs… the expensive trainer is probably a hgv trainer you have on the books anyway so again very little cost

based on you not reclaiming anything for VAT then as you say, leaves £60 x 20= £1200… very good for a days work, even I cant make that!

mate V.A.T(value added tax) is charged on the total price not the profit ,the tax on the profit is corporation tax. he still has to pay rent even if he already has the building so it is still a cost ,so are staff wages
I know dcpc is a rip off ,usually rubbish courses, but you don’t have to use a particular company if you don’t want to there are options

[flunkey]

Do we all think they are going to run around and bust all those bus driver’s who brown enveloped their cpc NOT! So how can they then later on do all us lorryists?..food for thought Imagine all the bus drivers who(in theory) would nt be allowed to work since they have scammed their cpc and then it could all go wrong!!!
By then there will be another blueish card needed? I did my 35 hours doing the same course 5 times - but 5 different ALLMI tickets 4 free-HA!

[truckyboy]

I must agree with everyone on here that the CPC is an absolute rip off, it is a scheme that was thought up by either training companies, RHA, or whoever, and passed in law by Brussels, What i have found out, is the fact that most trainers and companies, have very little knowledge of transport, ok Mr Smythe and his colleagues, state that his company only employ ex drivers ( maybe still drivers )
So what the trainers in effect have done, is to take a few lessons, from a college tutor, and get on the road. Everything that is being taught, is everything a driver knows, or indeed puts into practice every single day, and is of no benefit. I myself have been on the road for 50 years, i have done the full course, got the bit of useless plastic, but only because someone else paid for it, otherwise it would be the end of the road for me. What i would like to know is: Has any driver, who has taken the course, benefited from the CPC, course ? I would imagine that there is a very high percentage who learnt nothing, they dont already know, the course i was on, even showed a picture of a truck with no front number plate, the tutor didnt know till i pointed it out.

On the last issue, which is to do with payments i think the money being charged is a rip off in itself, £80.75p, so what is the average attendance in the classroom, lets guess 20, and then i think its a tidy few quid, ok maybe you make a small profit now, and have been losing money for the first 3 years, once the majority has taken the cpc, your numbers will fall, and eventually go out of business, or, put the fees up to cover the losses ( driving more people to the cash in hand route ) or get a government subsidy.
On the question of cash in hand a lot of people will opt to take this route, and its no good using scaring tactics, to put people off because, Any one in their right mind, would have thought this one out, ( i would imagine ) and make sure they have access to a database, they obviously have the knows and means to get the card, so obviously its registered …Right !..right. so there is no issue. When i did my course, no one came to check whether anyone was in the room, and a private venture, is less likely to get caught, for a villain always has a backup, if you can call him a villain.
The course is a complete waste of time, not thought out, is not educational ( except for newbie drivers ) or those wishing to learn something new, like a trainer for example.
I mean, you can buy a licence on the internet, or any other kind of qualification, so why not a CPC, and all registered by the way.

[scanner]

Peter Smythe:

Please don’t take this personally as I don’t mean it that way, but this is typical of the flannel I have heard on every DCPC course I’ve been on and demonstrative of the inadequacy of the whole DCPC scheme.

Can you show me the empirical difference in the educational value of what is learned by somebody who is asleep vs somebody who doesn’t understand what you are saying?

It is demonstrably not your job to satisfy the the rules. You are a trainer not a rule-satisfier, you have a legal and moral responsibility to the people who are paying you to train them - to train them.

It is disingenuous to say your only concern is for the driver after stating that your job is to satisfy rules. In any case as a business owner, your main concern is to your business, surely?

Good to have a considered question fired at me! Firstly, I have said on many occasions that the driver cpc, in it’s present form, is flawed and needs some major attention. So I’m not going to try and defend the scheme as it stands.

We have, on one occasion, had a Polish driver who had very limited use of English. He coped with the course as we used diagrams perhaps a bit more than normal. Similarly, we have had an English profoundly deaf driver who did the course in a similar manner. And, on both occasions, it was good to see the understanding from the other drivers. But someone who has just come off nights and wants to sit in the corner and go to sleep will not be registered with DSA.

The attitude of many drivers when they arrive is exactly how we would expect. ie “what a waste of time, cash cow, etc etc” But at the end of the day, it’s great to receive the positive comments about how much has been learned and how enjoyable the day was and quite different to what was expected. And, of course, there will always be one who has learned nothing, didn’t enjoy it and it’s all a total waste of time.

I pride myself on the standard of training from our centre and it is continually monitored internally and externally to ensure the highest possible standards. We are fortunate not to employ any cpc tutors who have not been drivers. The fact that this doesn’t have to be the case, IMO, is one of the problems with the driver cpc. We ensure that our activities remain within the rules laid down by whichever authority we have to satisfy at the time. Strangely, my main concern is the satisfaction of the customer. I’ve found that the business flourishes very well as a result.

Whether anyone chooses to believe this or not is totally up to them - but there are many forum users (especially in New and Wannabees) who can vouch for the standards at the centre.

Pete

You haven’t answered my questions. No DCPC trainer ever has. ^^They just waffle a bit and move on ^^.

It stands to reason that “New and Wannabees” will vouch for your standards - by definition they don’t have the experience to compare what you tell them to what they already know.

[scanner]

truckyboy:
I must agree with everyone on here that the CPC is an absolute rip off, it is a scheme that was thought up by either training companies, RHA, or whoever, and passed in law by Brussels, What i have found out, is the fact that most trainers and companies, have very little knowledge of transport, ok Mr Smythe and his colleagues, state that his company only employ ex drivers ( maybe still drivers )
So what the trainers in effect have done, is to take a few lessons, from a college tutor, and get on the road. Everything that is being taught, is everything a driver knows, or indeed puts into practice every single day, and is of no benefit. I myself have been on the road for 50 years, i have done the full course, got the bit of useless plastic, but only because someone else paid for it, otherwise it would be the end of the road for me. What i would like to know is: Has any driver, who has taken the course, benefited from the CPC, course ? I would imagine that there is a very high percentage who learnt nothing, they dont already know, the course i was on, even showed a picture of a truck with no front number plate, the tutor didnt know till i pointed it out.

On the last issue, which is to do with payments i think the money being charged is a rip off in itself, £80.75p, so what is the average attendance in the classroom, lets guess 20, and then i think its a tidy few quid, ok maybe you make a small profit now, and have been losing money for the first 3 years, once the majority has taken the cpc, your numbers will fall, and eventually go out of business, or, put the fees up to cover the losses ( driving more people to the cash in hand route ) or get a government subsidy.
On the question of cash in hand a lot of people will opt to take this route, and its no good using scaring tactics, to put people off because, Any one in their right mind, would have thought this one out, ( i would imagine ) and make sure they have access to a database, they obviously have the knows and means to get the card, so obviously its registered …Right !..right. so there is no issue. When i did my course, no one came to check whether anyone was in the room, and a private venture, is less likely to get caught, for a villain always has a backup, if you can call him a villain.
The course is a complete waste of time, not thought out, is not educational ( except for newbie drivers ) or those wishing to learn something new, like a trainer for example.
I mean, you can buy a licence on the internet, or any other kind of qualification, so why not a CPC, and all registered by the way.

I’ve done four modules and learned nothing. I have found mistakes in the content of every DCPC course I’ve attended.

[burnie1]

Hi Peter

The trainers who are taking bungs need to be sorted out as this practice is no good for anybody.

Drivers cpc will not go away so the customer whether it is a driver or company need to get good value for money. Is buying a card good value for money compared to attending training courses where the driver may learn something that makes them a better more professional driver?

I have never heard of anybody who believes that dcpc in its current format is perfect, so what would make it better?

A standard qualification for instructors to achieve before they can train dcpc?
A test at the end of the course to prove the drivers competence at the end of he course?
Shorter courses, maybe 7 x 5 hour courses instead of 5 x 7 hour courses?

Instead of going on about how it should be scrapped lets hear how you would make it better.

[turbot]

Peter Smythe:

To Peter Smythe out of the figure you charge would it be possible to tell how much does the authorities take as a cut per person per module, the driver cpc needs to be re-jigged (but it wont) something on the lines as a refresher course,once every 5 years or so depending on the length of time you have had your licence.this is only my opinion and I would not begrudge handing over hard earned money for a decent day in the classroom.

We charge £80.75. The DSA take £8.75. The VAT man takes £12.00. Total deductions £20.25 leaving us with £60.00.

Out of interest, we then have to pay the tutor (not cheap as very experienced and highly qualified), rent on the training centre (don’t even go there!) admin support to deal with the booking, registration and DSA uploads. We were the first in the county to be approved for driver cpc in 2008 (the bus drivers started a year before lorry drivers). We made a loss every year until 2012 when we made a small profit. This year is looking better and, by the end of the year, we should have recovered the losses from the first 3 years.

So will someone please explain to me how this “cash cow” works!!!

Pete

The last dcpc module I did cost £45, assuming that the trainer was not losing money, why are you so expensive?

[flunkey]

burnie1:
Hi Peter

The trainers who are taking bungs need to be sorted out as this practice is no good for anybody.

Drivers cpc will not go away so the customer whether it is a driver or company need to get good value for money. Is buying a card good value for money compared to attending training courses where the driver may learn something that makes them a better more professional driver?

I have never heard of anybody who believes that dcpc in its current format is perfect, so what would make it better?

A standard qualification for instructors to achieve before they can train dcpc?
A test at the end of the course to prove the drivers competence at the end of he course?
Shorter courses, maybe 7 x 5 hour courses instead of 5 x 7 hour courses?

Instead of going on about how it should be scrapped lets hear how you would make it better.

Make it like a REAL exam/test where you can fail as opposed to just showing up and bringing £££ anyone remember CSE’s/O levels/A levels…I have been on cpc courses should have been in polish/rumainian/bulgarian not my mother tounge…

[turbot]

burnie1:
Instead of going on about how it should be scrapped lets hear how you would make it better.

Scrapping it would make it better, it is completely pointless and worthless, except in the eyes of those that are unscrupulously fleecing drivers. ie Vosa and the trainers.

How can a course that you learn nothing from and cannot fail have any merit?

[flunkey]

turbot:

burnie1:
Instead of going on about how it should be scrapped lets hear how you would make it better.

Scrapping it would make it better, it is completely pointless and worthless, except in the eyes of those that are unscrupulously fleecing drivers. ie Vosa and the trainers.

How can a course that you learn nothing from and cannot fail have any merit?

+1…give that man a ste of keys and a fuel card

[scanner]

FLUNKEY:

burnie1:
Hi Peter

The trainers who are taking bungs need to be sorted out as this practice is no good for anybody.

Drivers cpc will not go away so the customer whether it is a driver or company need to get good value for money. Is buying a card good value for money compared to attending training courses where the driver may learn something that makes them a better more professional driver?

I have never heard of anybody who believes that dcpc in its current format is perfect, so what would make it better?

A standard qualification for instructors to achieve before they can train dcpc?
A test at the end of the course to prove the drivers competence at the end of he course?
Shorter courses, maybe 7 x 5 hour courses instead of 5 x 7 hour courses?

Instead of going on about how it should be scrapped lets hear how you would make it better.

Make it like a REAL exam/test where you can fail as opposed to just showing up and bringing £££ anyone remember CSE’s/O levels/A levels…I have been on cpc courses should have been in polish/rumainian/bulgarian not my mother tounge…

How will they know what your “mother tounge” is if you don’t tell them?

[burnie1]

turbot:

burnie1:
Instead of going on about how it should be scrapped lets hear how you would make it better.

Scrapping it would make it better, it is completely pointless and worthless, except in the eyes of those that are unscrupulously fleecing drivers. ie Vosa and the trainers.

How can a course that you learn nothing from and cannot fail have any merit?

Turbot scrapping it is not an option so how would you make it better?

[scanner]

burnie1:

turbot:

burnie1:
Instead of going on about how it should be scrapped lets hear how you would make it better.

Scrapping it would make it better, it is completely pointless and worthless, except in the eyes of those that are unscrupulously fleecing drivers. ie Vosa and the trainers.

How can a course that you learn nothing from and cannot fail have any merit?

Turbot scrapping it is not an option so how would you make it better?

Apoligies for answering a question directed to someone else, but I would make it the same as the French FIMO system. It would have two major benefits:

1 There would be far less drivers

2 People that passed the course would be much more likely to be Drivers rather than licence holders. This would be especially beneficial with regard to bus drivers, surely (in London anyway) the most unprofessional and disinterested group of vocational licence holders in existence.

[slackbladder]

That has been my point on this topic all along. You can debate the rights & wrongs of doing the course in the first place until your head falls off, the fact is its here & if you want to drive you need it. In my eyes any course you don’t get tested on is worthless, it’s the only way to prove the candidate has taken in the information.
The idea earlier about taking a test on arrival & staying if you fail, going if you pass is a good one. They used to do that in the army when you did maths in the epc, an education course required for promotion.
Slightly off topic. Does anyone think that, when & if we vote to leave Europe this sort of guff will go away.

[tachograph]

burnie1:
Instead of going on about how it should be scrapped lets hear how you would make it better.

I’ve posted about this before but will do so again.

I have nothing against training but compulsory training attendance is pointless, no matter how good or bad the course is you won’t remember it all after a 7 hour course anyway.

Lets take drivers hours and tachograph regulations which seems to be a popular course, do you seriously believe that someone with just rudimentary knowledge of the topic is going to learn the drivers hours and WTD in 7 hours and remember what they’ve learned, of course they’re not.

Therefore the DCPC cannot be made better, it could be scrapped and replaced with a genuine training program but it won’t be.

The simple fact is that nearly everything that can be learned in a classroom environment can be learned on the Internet for free, so there’s no point whatsoever in compulsory classroom training attendance.

If we’re going to have a DCPC it should be a 30 to 45 minute multi-choice question test that can be studied for in the drivers own time, or in works time if a company decides to hold their own courses.

The tests could be on several relevant subjects such as a drivers hours and WTD test, a test on load security ec’t, if you fail a test you have say 3 months to take it again.

This method of DCPC would result in drivers proving that they have the required knowledge, it would be far cheaper for both the drivers and the road transport industry as a whole, and the Driver CPC qualification would be a recognised and worthwhile qualification that means something rather than the sham qualification we now get.

Why wouldn’t this work, because there’s not enough profit to be made out of it of course

[scanner]

Slackbladder:
That has been my point on this topic all along. You can debate the rights & wrongs of doing the course in the first place until your head falls off, the fact is its here & if you want to drive you need it. In my eyes any course you don’t get tested on is worthless, it’s the only way to prove the candidate has taken in the information.
The idea earlier about taking a test on arrival & staying if you fail, going if you pass is a good one. They used to do that in the army when you did maths in the epc, an education course required for promotion.
Slightly off topic. Does anyone think that, when & if we vote to leave Europe this sort of guff will go away.

Not a chance, sadly. It is of course, a massive job creation scheme. It wouldn’t be hard for the EU to refuse to allow drivers without a DCPC or equivalent qualification to use its roads either. I realise that that wouldn’t affect a huge number of UK drivers today, but in an opted-out UK, things could be very different as regards the countries international transport firms operated from.

Laying off yet more government employees and affecting the firms they support would be very unpopular for any government, especially one that had just held a referendum on self-determination.

[turbot]

burnie1:

turbot:

burnie1:
Instead of going on about how it should be scrapped lets hear how you would make it better.

Scrapping it would make it better, it is completely pointless and worthless, except in the eyes of those that are unscrupulously fleecing drivers. ie Vosa and the trainers.

How can a course that you learn nothing from and cannot fail have any merit?

Turbot scrapping it is not an option so how would you make it better?

Make it so you learn something useful and if you don’t you fail. I have wasted good time and money on three occasions so far, I always make a point of asking the trainer several times what the benefit of the cpc is and I have yet to hear a sensible answer. It is usually along the lines of “you need to do it so shut up so I can bore you to death with patronising rubbish for seven hours”

[wiretwister]

Peter Smythe:
Good to have a considered question fired at me! Firstly, I have said on many occasions that the driver cpc, in it’s present form, is flawed and needs some major attention. So I’m not going to try and defend the scheme as it stands.

We have, on one occasion, had a Polish driver who had very limited use of English. He coped with the course as we used diagrams perhaps a bit more than normal. Similarly, we have had an English profoundly deaf driver who did the course in a similar manner. And, on both occasions, it was good to see the understanding from the other drivers. But someone who has just come off nights and wants to sit in the corner and go to sleep will not be registered with DSA.

I really cant let that one go. One of the 4 modules that I have done 1 was on the Smith system. There were 4 of us on that course and it was organised, run and paid for by my employer in work time. Of the 8 1/2 hours that we were in attendance we did approx 1 hour of classroom theory, 2 drive sessions each (candidate) of about 30 minutes each in a minibus, had lunch and 2 breaks totalling about 1 hour and a short question/debrief/feedback session. In total about 2 1/2 hours of actual activity that could be described as training per candidate. All of us were registered so the CPC trainers are, I would contend, every bit as culpable in this fraud as those who take the brown envelope option.

Peter Smythe:
The attitude of many drivers when they arrive is exactly how we would expect. ie “what a waste of time, cash cow, etc etc” But at the end of the day, it’s great to receive the positive comments about how much has been learned and how enjoyable the day was and quite different to what was expected. And, of course, there will always be one who has learned nothing, didn’t enjoy it and it’s all a total waste of time.

How can you be so sure that you saw what you wanted to see rather than what a more critical eye might see? All of the modules I have done thus far I’ve simply ticked the relevant box as because the “training” is delivered in house and the feedback is supposed to be anonymous few believe it is. Even when out of date and superseded reference material is used, and was shown to be so with a smart phone and access to the VOSA website, the course “trainer” came out the the expected and bull crap justification that changes to the course material have to be approved by JAUPT.

Peter Smythe:
I pride myself on the standard of training from our centre and it is continually monitored internally and externally to ensure the highest possible standards. We are fortunate not to employ any cpc tutors who have not been drivers. The fact that this doesn’t have to be the case, IMO, is one of the problems with the driver cpc. We ensure that our activities remain within the rules laid down by whichever authority we have to satisfy at the time. Strangely, my main concern is the satisfaction of the customer. I’ve found that the business flourishes very well as a result.

Whether anyone chooses to believe this or not is totally up to them - but there are many forum users (especially in New and Wannabees) who can vouch for the standards at the centre.

Pete

I wouldn’t doubt what you say about the standard of training at your center but would suggest that the benchmark that the trainers are using is a long way below what drivers would expect for a vocational requirement, just as the standard of medical examination and driving test. That is the dilemma that the DCPC has in that it has simply been discredited by the experience many of us have had. Whether you choose to believe the examples that I’ve recalled is up to you but there are at least 12 people who were on one or other of those “courses” with me, and others who did the same courses at different times who can vouch for the veracity of what I have said.

[alamcculloch]

I think that Mr. Smythe is trying to deliver a professional service,but he is in competition with cowboys who dont have his costs.Many years ago I ran a taxi and was more expensive than the chancers who did not pay for the optional extras like road tax and 2 MOTs per annum.I had to cease trading after a couple of years.

[norfolk]

I’ll put my two 'apath in : If I had turned up on Dragons den and said " how about this for an idea, I,m going to make it compulsory for professional people to pay 4/5 hundred pounds for a piece of bluecardboard, and then im going to make it compulsory to carry it at all times and I have the backing of the authorities to enforce it rigidly and make these people be treated like social lepers if they don’t conform, and five years in the future they will have to do it all over again but by now with inflation we will charge 6/7 hundred pounds and we will give them another piece of cardboard " Debora and Peter would sit up in their chairs and say " It sounds to good to be true ,what are your overheads? " Well I hire a room and I provide tea and biscuits, they give up their time they pay to travel to the room and I teach them to ■■■■ eggs " But says Peter " Wot happens if they havnt got a blue card, well the police ect will treat them worse than someone who hangs about school gates selling crack and will come down on them from agreat hight, and they will be out of work , and all that it entails. Any plans to expand into mainland Europe ? well yes it covers the whole lot but the penalty for any one from the mainland is £50 on the spot but we have been promised they will return and face the music at a later date. Five Dragons died in the rush to invest a man is helping the police with their enquires. Best of luck to anyone taking the brown envelope route and don’t let anyone scare you into they will know the difference , plant operators have been using that route for years.