DCPC Who is going to wait

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
121

dieseldave:

ROG:
Blimey - its like pulling teeth !!

Yes ROG, I’ll agree wholeheartedly with you on that point. :grimacing:

Whether the RTD is enforced or not isn’t the issue here and it’s not for any of us to reason how/why any piece of legislation may or may not be at the top of any enforcing body’s list of priorities.

FYI, there are many laws that don’t get enforced, or are only given lip service by the authorities.
However, the DCPC seems to be a hot political topic.

The real issue with your idea is that it’s taking a massive gamble on the DCPC being swept under the carpet and forgotten for a lack of interest.

IMHO, nobody in their right mind would take such a gamble.

However, you still haven’t addressed the question I asked earlier of how your idea deals with what you’d have the government do to avoid the fine from Europe for failing to comply with the Directive.

Just as they have avoided a fine for the RTD - they will have complied with the directive - there is nothing in the directive for the dcpc that says the UK Govt must employ trainers to deliver it from what I can see - unless I missed that bit !!■■

122

ROG:
Just as they have avoided a fine for the RTD - they will have complied with the directive - there is nothing in the directive for the dcpc that says the UK Govt must employ trainers to deliver it from what I can see - unless I missed that bit !!■■

How do you deliver 35 hours training without a somebody delivering it?

123

muckles:
How do you deliver 35 hours training without a somebody delivering it?

How do you enforce the RTD without anybody actually enforcing it?

124

ROG:

muckles:
How do you deliver 35 hours training without a somebody delivering it?

How do you enforce the RTD without anybody actually enforcing it?

The RTD is enforced but it’s a light touch enforcement you are still expected to keep records to comply with the RTD and the UK’s implementation of the DCPC seems to be pretty light touch as it only requires course attendance not an exam.

How VOSA handle dealing with driver who’ve not got a DCPC card after 2014 is anybody’s guess, that might be a light touch as well.

but what happens if we as a Country decide to ignore it and I then get stopped in France or Spain or Germany and haven’t got a card?

125

alte hase:

Then how exactly does your scheme envisage the UK avoiding the fine from the EU?
dieseldave

The same way british governments pick and chose which other directives to ignore or enforce, like the maximun height limit for hgv’s, perhaps?.

Brilliant post… the part I’ve quoted really hits the nail on the head IMHO.

That’s politicians for you, they’ll choose what’s to be ignored and then tell the relevant enforcing authorities what to do. This is the real reason that some laws are enacted, but not enforced. It’s all down to politics.

The guy who invented the WTD has probably had some obscure back street in Brussels named after him for services rendered to the workers, but it all comes to nothing when it’s not enforced.

Likewise, the guy who invented the DCPC has probably been honoured in a similar way, but let’s be fair here, the industry has had plenty of warning that VOSA will be out in force come the relevant date looking for us that got grandfather rights. Our local friendly TC Beverly Bell has told everybody at documented meetings/seminars that the DCPC will be enforced, so now there’s a choice to make. There are many people who can vouch for the fact that those who ignore a warning from Ms Bell usually tend to regret it quite soon afterwards.

alte hase:
I wont do it , but I’ll be late 63, I refuse to be treated like a schoolkid, 40 years with clean hgv licence and 40 years hgv driving, this is the straw that breaks the camels back,

I completely understand where you’re coming from and it’s your choice entirely.

alte hase:
I have every faith in our neo ‘liberal’ masters to up the ante with a clear message from the dcpc victim base confirming their unquestioning acceptance, docility and limitless capacity to be subservient, such clear messages have been the hallmark of british drivers since the advent of the tacho itself, which brought about in real terms an increased workload, and brought about in real terms lower wages, and brought about in real terms increased pressure behind the wheel, the culmination of which sees hgv drivers having more accidents today than could ever have been imagined 40 years ago.

You may have a point there, but let’s not forget that there’s been an increase in population/drivers/vehicles since then. My point here is that; given that there are more vehicles on the roads, the chances of encountering an unsafe idiot must have also increased.

alte hase:
… british drivers are fast heading to a future where the only good thing in it will be the past.

Yes, that’s very true and there’s not that much that anybody can do about it, because that’s where succesive governments and the EU are leading us.

126

muckles:
but what happens if we as a Country decide to ignore it and I then get stopped in France or Spain or Germany and haven’t got a card?

Is there anything to stop the UK Govt giving away DQCs to UK drivers ? - I reckon there probably is but its worth exploring …

127

They are enforcing it with a light touch now…and from Sept 2014 it will be with a heavy touch.

Drivers who should have cards and don’t have already been fined, and operators who are in trouble because their drivers are committing hours/tacho offences or not completing daily checks and who haven’t started DCPC training are made to go and sit on the naughty step outside Mrs Bells’ office in the Big School. It’s all on the Commercial Motor website.

Seriously, I suspect that drivers who deliberately ignore the DCPC and present themselves for work without a card after the deadline will be instantly dismissed by their employers. If your employer hasn’t taken any steps to get you trained, he’s either living in a cave ignorant of the modern world or he’s waiting to get rid of you. You will no doubt wish to make plans for the future accordingly.

And if you are stopped outside the UK without a card, I suspect your truck will get impounded and only released to a qualified driver.

128

ROG:

muckles:
but what happens if we as a Country decide to ignore it and I then get stopped in France or Spain or Germany and haven’t got a card?

Is there anything to stop the UK Govt giving away DQCs to UK drivers ? - I reckon there probably is but its worth exploring …

This probably stops the Government giving away cards.

Section 4: Compulsory periodic training provided for in Article 3(1)(b)
Compulsory periodic training courses must be organised by an approved training centre. Their duration must be of 35
hours every five years, given in periods of at least seven hours. Such periodic training may be provided, in part, on topof-
the-range simulators.

I suppose if we didn’t tell anybody else in Europe we could have our cards given to us. But trying to get a small group of driver to keep a secret is hard enough, we’d stand no chance with all of us. :laughing:

Also it would be a bit of Pot calling the Kettle Black, when we shout enough when we think our East European friends are getting their licences from the back of a Cornflake packet. :open_mouth:

129

ROG:

muckles:
How do you deliver 35 hours training without a somebody delivering it?

How do you enforce the RTD without anybody actually enforcing it?

ROG - what with the WTD/CPC/ETC: ETC: I’ve forgotten what RTD fricken well stands for ! :blush:

What’s it mean Bud ?

130

ROG:
Just as they have avoided a fine for the RTD - they will have complied with the directive - there is nothing in the directive for the dcpc that says the UK Govt must employ trainers to deliver it from what I can see - unless I missed that bit !!■■

That’s a very fair point IMHO ROG.

The problem we have is that it’s been very widely publiscised that DCPC will be enforced, so a wise person might take that as a warning. :wink:

IMHO, simply persuading the trainers to give up (assuming your idea is workable) would only lead to some form of replacement scheme being imposed upon us by the Government. There have been several well documented warnings from Senior Traffic Commisioner Beverley Bell (amongst others) that the DCPC will be enforced right from the off.

I agree that there’s nothing in the legislation that says the Government must employ trainers to deliver DCPC, but that’s where your theory hits a very rocky end.

The main point here is that the Government DON’T employ trainers, so you haven’t missed that bit, because it doesn’t exist so it must be that you simply made it up.

Next, the legislation provides for an awarding body to make the rules and micro-manage the day to day routine of the DCPC, but that’s under the watchful eyes of the DfT and DSA as well as the awarding body, JAUPT.

131

GasGas:
And if you are stopped outside the UK without a card, I suspect your truck will get impounded and only released to a qualified driver.

Being a hard bitten and very cynical ex-Euro driver, I can imagine an eye watering fine to go with all the hassle of having a truck impounded.

Then we get to the mutual sharing of EU enforcement actions that’s being widened as we speak, which will then involve our own TCs and quite possibly raise an invite for the operator of said truck to sit in the naughty chair at a Public Inquiry. :open_mouth:

132

James Bateman2:

ROG:

muckles:
How do you deliver 35 hours training without a somebody delivering it?

How do you enforce the RTD without anybody actually enforcing it?

ROG - what with the WTD/CPC/ETC: ETC: I’ve forgotten what RTD fricken well stands for ! :blush:

What’s it mean Bud ?

RTD is often used for the RT(WT)D which means Road Transport (Working Time) Directive

133

dieseldave:

ROG:
Just as they have avoided a fine for the RTD - they will have complied with the directive - there is nothing in the directive for the dcpc that says the UK Govt must employ trainers to deliver it from what I can see - unless I missed that bit !!■■

That’s a very fair point IMHO ROG.

The problem we have is that it’s been very widely publiscised that DCPC will be enforced,.

How would the UK Govt enforce the dcpc or what would the EU actually be able to do against the UK Govt if they set it all up as we have but nobody applied to JAUPT to be an approved trainer ?

134

ROG:

dieseldave:

ROG:
Just as they have avoided a fine for the RTD - they will have complied with the directive - there is nothing in the directive for the dcpc that says the UK Govt must employ trainers to deliver it from what I can see - unless I missed that bit !!■■

That’s a very fair point IMHO ROG.

The problem we have is that it’s been very widely publiscised that DCPC will be enforced,.

How would the UK Govt enforce the dcpc or what would the EU actually be able to do against the UK Govt if they set it all up as we have but nobody applied to JAUPT to be an approved trainer ?

This is a spectacular shifting of your original premise ROG and it hasn’t gone unnoticed, but I think that drivers without DQC cards would still be fined as per the existing legislation.

Whether there are or aren’t any trainers would have no bearing on that, and certainly wouldn’t get the legislation repealed. Drivers would then have to find other ways to meet the requirements.

I also think it possible that there would still be some place where drivers would get the required hours of training, it’s just that the format of it would be different to what it is now.

135

dieseldave:

Rob K:
It’s also worth bearing in mind that this site was full of threads about how the industry would fall flat on its face with the introduction of the digi tacho cards as no drivers would be paying for one and the country would grind to a halt. Of course that never happened as 99.9% of drivers talk a good story but don’t have the bollox to do it. I predict more of the same with the DCPC.

I remember back in 1979 (yes, it’s one of Dave’s ‘old hand’ stories :wink: ) but my point is that history supports Rob’s view of driver talk.

When the first analogue tachos were being installed in trucks, all the scaremongering talk was about “the spy in the cab” and all the hard men were talking (loudly :unamused: ) about going on strike and/or hanging their keys up for good.

The reality of it was that very few of them did anything other than just gob off about it, so not that much has changed in all those years.

It’s a bit different this time. They want some serious wedge for DCPC “training”.

136

On my last 7 hour Dcpc course,I read the infringement section as regards not having the DQC. A £30 fine for the driver! Now I’ve been driving for 9 years with a Tachograph fitted and have not yet had to show my charts/cards in that time! Not to Vosa or Plod! Do you see where this is going folks? :grimacing:

137

ROG:

James Bateman2:

ROG:

muckles:
How do you deliver 35 hours training without a somebody delivering it?

How do you enforce the RTD without anybody actually enforcing it?

ROG - what with the WTD/CPC/ETC: ETC: I’ve forgotten what RTD fricken well stands for ! :blush:

What’s it mean Bud ?

RTD is often used for the RT(WT)D which means Road Transport (Working Time) Directive

Cheers man.

Thats me even more confused. :laughing:

138

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139

dessy:
On my last 7 hour Dcpc course,I read the infringement section as regards not having the DQC. A £30 fine for the driver! Now I’ve been driving for 9 years with a Tachograph fitted and have not yet had to show my charts/cards in that time! Not to Vosa or Plod! Do you see where this is going folks? :grimacing:

This is a really valid point. Drivers working for Operators with a good OCRS score will rarely meet VOSA - therefore more chance of getting away with no DQC

As for the fine - yes there is a £30 GFP for no DQC and no that isn’t the biggest fine in the world, but any GFP issued to a driver counts towards the Operators OCRS score - AND the TC has already said that drivers caught with no DQC will have their vocational licence suspended until they can explain why they have no DQC. And of course there isn’t a £30 GFP for your employer - they get a fine of up to £1000 and a few visits from VOSA - maybe even a chance to meet their local TC in person over coffee and biscuits.

I suspect there is a difference between no DQC on your person and not having ever been issued one. I suspect the £30 GFP is for not having the card with you but you DO have one.

140

dessy:
On my last 7 hour Dcpc course,I read the infringement section as regards not having the DQC. A £30 fine for the driver! Now I’ve been driving for 9 years with a Tachograph fitted and have not yet had to show my charts/cards in that time! Not to Vosa or Plod! Do you see where this is going folks? :grimacing:

Going to be an easy one for the cops though - stop LGV/PCV driver after 09/09/2014 and ask to see DQC … no DQC = £30 FPN … nice easy money for the Govt coffers

shep532:
I suspect there is a difference between no DQC on your person and not having ever been issued one. I suspect the £30 GFP is for not having the card with you but you DO have one.

Spot on if referring to the carrying of the DQC (£30 FPN) and not having the periodic training (up to £1000 fine in court)

The weird bit seems to be not having the required initial dcpc where the penalty does not make sense