Long distance clara:
like I say I will phone VOSA tomorrow or Tuesday and I will call 3 different offices to get an answer and I will post the answer here, as stated if i’m wrong I will say so I am more than happy to admit that and learn something new.
Save yourself the cost of the phone call(s). This has been discussed on here before and here is the information you seek straight from the horses mouth, as posted already on this thread but you seem to be failing to understand it…
Postby geebee45 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:10 pm
Firstly, thanks to Rog for alerting me to this thread.
Put simply, it doesn’t matter where the dCPC training is undertaken or whether the driver is being paid to attend the course or who pays the course fees; driver or employer, the course time cannot be counted as rest under the EU drivers hours rules.
If you want the detail. EC 561 gives the definitions of; driving time, other work, rest and break. As we all know, ‘rest’ is the period during which a driver may freely dispose of his (or her) time. Being on a compulsory training course doesn’t fit with that definition. ‘Break,’ cannot be claimed as a driver cannot do any ‘driving’ or ‘work’ on a break.
The definition of ‘other work’ in '561 refers back to 2002/15 (EC) our old friend that gave us the Road Transport Working Time Regulations in April 2005. If you look at Article 3 you will find the following definition of work;
‘working time’ shall mean:
in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say:
– the time devoted to all road transport activities.
These activities are, in particular, the following:
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking
from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.
I’ve put the important bit in part 5 in red.
The dCPC is a legal obligation for drivers that wish to use their vocational licence commercially. Therefore the time is ‘other work,’ needs to be recorded as such and cannot be counted as ‘rest’ under the EU drivers hours rules. It also needs recording under the aforementioned RT(WT)R as ‘working time’ and would count towards the maximum ‘working time’ of 60 hours per week or 48 average.
Geebee45 is VOSA so you have your definitive answer.
Looking at that it seems I am wrong and I will apoligise for that, however I will make them calls as a VOSA officer told me it did not count if it was not paid. I will quite happily put if they all say no but will be interesting to see if they give different answers. Thanks for the info though it will come in handy if I’m ever asked the question or if I end up doing weekend courses.
Like I have said before we can all learn from each other so happy days.
GeeBee’s rule is the one that I work to as a trainer and I make sure that any courses I train are informed that it is ‘other work’, despite the arguments that usually follow
the flying foden:
i believe that Mr tozer as had a scrap plans for the cheap dcpc .and the protest is back on again
Errr hello…little spelling mistake there pal it’s spelt with ss not z.
I am glad you find it funny taff, at least the bloke tried to do something for drivers who were being held to ransome by every one including the unions to pay through the nose for this so called crap. i could not believe the abuse that was vented against this man, so as i understand it, barrie =£150.00 other trainers £■■?
Another good example of drivers shooting themselves in the foot. some drivers were even moaning that it was too cheap.!!! so all i can sumise is that drivers like being treated lke crap and sleeping in laybyes or rip off services. above all paying for the right to work. just think you get to drive a new wagon that belongs to someone else. arent you the clever one. i think braindeads and knuckledragger comes to mind. as far as i am concerned drivers deserve all they get. sorry folks but it makes us a laughing stock, just try explaining this to a class of primarty kids, and they will laugh at you. so just pay up and smile.
Long distance clara:
Looking at that it seems I am wrong and I will apoligise for that, however I will make them calls as a VOSA officer told me it did not count if it was not paid. I will quite happily put if they all say no but will be interesting to see if they give different answers. Thanks for the info though it will come in handy if I’m ever asked the question or if I end up doing weekend courses.
Like I have said before we can all learn from each other so happy days.
Keep in mind that Geebee45 trains VOSA officers so his word carries more weight than some random person on the end of a phone, so I would always go with what he says over anyone else from VOSA.
the flying foden:
i believe that Mr tozer as had a scrap plans for the cheap dcpc .and the protest is back on again
Errr hello…little spelling mistake there pal it’s spelt with ss not z.
I am glad you find it funny taff, at least the bloke tried to do something for drivers who were being held to ransome by every one including the unions to pay through the nose for this so called crap. i could not believe the abuse that was vented against this man, so as i understand it, barrie =£150.00 other trainers £■■?
Another good example of drivers shooting themselves in the foot. some drivers were even moaning that it was too cheap.!!! so all i can sumise is that drivers like being treated lke crap and sleeping in laybyes or rip off services. above all paying for the right to work. just think you get to drive a new wagon that belongs to someone else. arent you the clever one. i think braindeads and knuckledragger comes to mind. as far as i am concerned drivers deserve all they get. sorry folks but it makes us a laughing stock, just try explaining this to a class of primarty kids, and they will laugh at you. so just pay up and smile.
I don’t find the DCPC funny at all,in fact I find it a farce like most,BUT what I do find most amusing is mr ■■■■■■ sorry Tozer saying he can do it for the price he stated in the first place then it went up,and up again until the moron found it wasn’t viable and gave up the ghost…
I had my reservations from the start as did many others on how he would offer this training at such a low price,which at the end of the day proved to be right.
I wasn’t one of his minions who agrees with everything the guy comes up with and for that simple reason my views and opinions were deleted along with my account,obviously you are…and you have the cheek to call me braindead
Pot kettle and black spring to mind!
Well, i did the maths on this on, and it is perfectly possible to provide the DCPC for under £130 for all 5 sessions, it depends on where it is held, i’e’ on company premises free of charge, how much the trainer takes for his days work etc, but mostly on quantity of drivers, as i understand it, there were too many sceptics who didn’t want a cheap alternative to the drving schools, and not enough people willing to take up the offer.
It’s like going to Tesco and paying twice as for peaches because nectarines are too cheap!
Of course there is the laptop, projector, screen, whiteboard and flip chart for the trainer to provide, as well as full course materials for each person, their lunch and free coffee throughout the day.
The trainer would not be expected to work (mostly at the weekend) for less than the minimum wage, or would they?
Then of course most courses are registered to train a maximum of 15, and a few are for 20 drivers.
I don’t find the DCPC funny at all,in fact I find it a farce like most,BUT what I do find most amusing is mr Tozer saying he can do it for the price he stated in the first place then it went up,and up again until the moron found it wasn’t viable and gave up the ghost…
I had my reservations from the start as did many others on how he would offer this training at such a low price,which at the end of the day proved to be right.
I wasn’t one of his minions who agrees with everything the guy comes up with and for that simple reason my views and opinions were deleted along with my account,obviously you are…and you have the cheek to call me braindead
Pot kettle and black spring to mind!
[/quote]
I see Barrie has posted the costings used to arrive at the figure quoted, it seems to stack up. however he has withdrawn this offer much to the amazement of genuine drivers who needed this crap as cheap as possible. but it seems that the keyboard warriors extolling the virtues of their superior knowledge have won the day. sadly Taff too many drivers like you are quick to slag off without any proper detailed counter argument against the offer. as for this chap being a moron i think not. just pay the tax on your right to work like a good little citezen.
bloodoodle:
Of course there is the laptop, a one off cost of about £500 projector,Ebay, less than £100 screen see projector, or use a plain wall, whiteboard and flip chart Staples for less than £50 for the trainer to provide, as well as full course materials for each person, what course materials? It is not a requirement to give hand outs, books, pens paper etc their lunch and free coffee throughout the day.Personally i would be happy to bring my own sandwiches, and a falsk, same as i do every day at work.
The trainer would not be expected to work (mostly at the weekend) for less than the minimum wage, or would they? That has been costed into the price
Then of course most courses are registered to train a maximum of 15, and a few are for 20 drivers.at 20 per course at £20 per head, thats £400 plus 20 x the upload fee. £125 for the trainer, still leaves £275 (more than 1 years re approval course fee) to cover the other costs
I could go on but I think you get the gist
Pat
Think about how Ryanair operate, you know if you want to eat on board you take your own food, if you want to take luggage you pay more etc, well, with the cheaper DCPC course you get the basic requirement, good quality training, just because the price is low, doesn’t mean you get inferior training, easyjet use the latest Airbus aircraft, they don’t fly tiger moths to keep prices down!
A quick up date, I only managed to speak to one VOSA officer today.
I said I had paid my own DCPC fees and that it had nothing to do with my company as I am an agency driver, I asked if that could be counted as rest or work. He said straight away rest is fine as it was not company related. This is the second VOSA officer to tell me this.
I then said I was unsure as the wording says something about obligatory courses, he put me on hold as he said he was unsure, he spoke to his colleagues come back and said they did not know but he would phone me back.
he left me a voice mail and said they could not get a definitive answer as know one knows and it will be taken higher but they said they think because of the obligatory bit it could be other work. they will get back to me.
As stated I would be man enough to say sorry if i was wrong and to be fair to you guys it is looking that way so sorry.
My new point, I am lucky as I have never told anyone any different except on here on this thread but DCPC instructors get a bad name for things like this but I have now asked the powers that be twice and twice I have initially been told what looks like the wrong answer.
Long distance clara:
A quick up date, I only managed to speak to one VOSA officer today.
I said I had paid my own DCPC fees and that it had nothing to do with my company as I am an agency driver, I asked if that could be counted as rest or work. He said straight away rest is fine as it was not company related. This is the second VOSA officer to tell me this.
I then said I was unsure as the wording says something about obligatory courses, he put me on hold as he said he was unsure, he spoke to his colleagues come back and said they did not know but he would phone me back.
he left me a voice mail and said they could not get a definitive answer as know one knows and it will be taken higher but they said they think because of the obligatory bit it could be other work. they will get back to me.
As stated I would be man enough to say sorry if i was wrong and to be fair to you guys it is looking that way so sorry.
My new point, I am lucky as I have never told anyone any different except on here on this thread but DCPC instructors get a bad name for things like this but I have now asked the powers that be twice and twice I have initially been told what looks like the wrong answer.
I think you’ll find the vast majority of VOSA staff are fixated on revenue collection and as such wouldn;t know to much about the law unless its a clear case of a breach, in which case they’re know the FP code for it This is why the WTD is not enforced by them,it might involve some knowledge and a court case!!
bloodoodle:
Of course there is the laptop, projector, screen, whiteboard and flip chart for the trainer to provide, as well as full course materials for each person, their lunch and free coffee throughout the day.
The trainer would not be expected to work (mostly at the weekend) for less than the minimum wage, or would they?
Then of course most courses are registered to train a maximum of 15, and a few are for 20 drivers.
I could go on but I think you get the gist
Pat
Non of which are really needed ,if it was a simple case of post your cheque or postal order & sae with stamp and receive the DCPC in return post , that is about as much attention this bull(zb) deserves, i for one would not want to travel to some location,and then by totally bored for around 7 hours, and loose pay doing that, as well as funding it, in order to continue doing a job that I’m already legally qualified to do , IMO the £100 -£150 DCPC all in was a brilliant idea, he should have stuck with it,
Hope some one else takes this one
the flying foden:
i believe that Mr tozer [has] scrap[ped] plans for the cheap dcpc .and the protest is back on again
WTF?
Unbelievable. He complains that he doesn’t get enough for support for stuff but yet he had 9 full pages of members with the money in their hands and then he decides that he can’t be arsed with it anymore and decides to pull it “due to lack of interest”. But wait… he has gone back to his original plan of protesting against the DCPC in London. WTF. The protest didn’t even attract a tenth of the support of the cheap DCPC course so go figure ? ? ? ■■ ? . Is this [zb] for real?
We all know the real reason why he’s done this - it’s because a few individuals on another forum did not share his train of thought and so he took major offence and threw all his toys out of his pram in anger. Pathetic. How old is he? 10?
I retract my earlier comments in this thread about him being a good guy. Quite clearly I was wrong and the guy is a complete time-waster and couldn’t organise an ■■■■ in a whorehouse. I think Rikki should ban any discussion of topics/petitions/protests from there and also any mention of the site itself as it casts TN in a bad light being associated with such a pathetic excuse for a website/site owner.
I’ve just been reading your arse-licking posts over there and you’re as detached from reality as he is. Are you his official spokesperson? You and him go very well together.
.and the protest is back on again 
It’s now in your hands as to whether this thread gets locked. 
This is why the WTD is not enforced by them,it might involve some knowledge and a court case!! 