greggy:
l d c, for gods sake all work related traing is classed as other work. end of. ffsfor christ’s sake this is what all the problems are with the dcpc ffs even the friggin trainers know faff all.
geeeeeeeeez.
please explain why this is in the link then, the key wording is paid or not paid geeeeeez
Long distance clara:
greggy:
l d c, for gods sake all work related traing is classed as other work. end of. ffsfor christ’s sake this is what all the problems are with the dcpc ffs even the friggin trainers know faff all.
geeeeeeeeez.please explain why this is in the link then, the key wording is paid or not paid geeeeeez
look at exemptions roadtransport.com/RoadLegal/ … ained.html
Also mentioned in the drivers hours book under derogation page 12 top of page right hand box.
If it is not paid you are freely disposing of your time, you have not been told you will attend a certain course at a certain time so you are freely doing what you want. look at another of my posts and I have said i will man up and say i am wrong if i am but will you■■?
Also if you went night school of your own back to learn the national CPC is that work as it is training for your job (if it was your choice not told by company) same thing free to dispose of your time. FFS how rude 
ROG:
The dCPC is a legal obligation for drivers that wish to use their vocational licence commercially. Therefore the time is ‘other work,’ needs to be recorded as such and cannot be counted as ‘rest’ under the EU drivers hours rules. It also needs recording under the aforementioned RT(WT)R as ‘working time’ and would count towards the maximum ‘working time’ of 60 hours per week or 48 average.
[/quote]
This is a very good point and makes me wonder why employed drivers would take a training course and pay for it themselves no matter whether its £100 or £1000. Its working time. I’ve said it time and time again and it gets ignored, hows this… your’re working for a company for say a year or two and you have no DCPC training. Your time runs out and you get no DCPC qualification and thus cannot renew your licence. WHat happens now? The company are gonna finish you up because you have no work related training AKA DCPC? I don’t think so.
But there plenty of protagonists of the DCPC who will say…its a tax, have the balls to stand up the the EU, stand up to the government, we dont want to take any crap etc… but the one thing they havn’t the balls to say to their boss is this…“its work related training and its needed to keep my licence and to keep me working for you , get it sorted”
Imagine going to DWP to sign on, …“what did you lose your job for?”
…“well erm, i didn;t have any work related training”
“well your work should supply that”
…“yeah, but its a tax and a travesty and besides all that i already know it all”
“oh , ok then, why are you here?”
" I was looking for a job"
“oh right, ok, i’ll show you some for general cleaners as you don;t have a clue about the requirements for driving lorries !!!”
The dipsticks are not always under the bonnet !!!
Mike-C:
ROG:
The dCPC is a legal obligation for drivers that wish to use their vocational licence commercially. Therefore the time is ‘other work,’ needs to be recorded as such and cannot be counted as ‘rest’ under the EU drivers hours rules. It also needs recording under the aforementioned RT(WT)R as ‘working time’ and would count towards the maximum ‘working time’ of 60 hours per week or 48 average.
This is a very good point and makes me wonder why employed drivers would take a training course and pay for it themselves no matter whether its £100 or £1000. Its working time. I’ve said it time and time again and it gets ignored, hows this… your’re working for a company for say a year or two and you have no DCPC training. Your time runs out and you get no DCPC qualification and thus cannot renew your licence. WHat happens now? The company are gonna finish you up because you have no work related training AKA DCPC? I don’t think so.
But there plenty of protagonists of the DCPC who will say…its a tax, have the balls to stand up the the EU, stand up to the government, we dont want to take any crap etc… but the one thing they havn’t the balls to say to their boss is this…“its work related training and its needed to keep my licence and to keep me working for you , get it sorted”
Imagine going to DWP to sign on, …“what did you lose your job for?”
Good point about loosing your job, I would say that 8/10 courses I have run have been paid for by the employer. but I mainly work for large companies i.e more than 20 drivers not sure about the smaller lot only employing 5 or less
Can we set polls up on here? like how many people have actually paid for themselves employed drivers only?
…“well erm, i didn;t have any work related training”
“well your work should supply that”
…“yeah, but its a tax and a travesty and besides all that i already know it all”
“oh , ok then, why are you here?”
" I was looking for a job"
“oh right, ok, i’ll show you some for general cleaners as you don;t have a clue about the requirements for driving lorries !!!”
The dipsticks are not always under the bonnet !!!
[/quote]
Long distance clara:
dieseldave:
Long distance clara:
You mention getting on a ferry, accredit a UK based drivers hours course and an international course that covers ferry’s. You will probably argue no to this due to the expense.Hi LDC,
I’m finding this comment a little interesting.
If somebody has written and had a drivers’ hours course approved, why would they need another course to cover ferry movements and international stuff?
DD the post I’m replying to said he teaches about ferry’s to people who don’t use them and he finds this a waste of time. So what I’m saying is if he is not happy with what he is teaching accredit a course that misses the offending item out. I’m then preempting his answer of it’s too expensive.
This is the problem with DCPC if your instructor is not passionate about the subject they will give you the bare minimum and it will be rubbish I agree. I have never had a complaint about my courses and this year alone I have delivered around 360 hours of DCPC.
Hi LDC,
Thanks for that, but I couldn’t tell what you were referring to.
Whoever thought that the international stuff and ferry info was a waste of his time clearly hasn’t thought about the possibility that in these troubled times he may not know where he’ll be working next month or next year.
Learning stuff empirically isn’t usually a good idea. 
Long distance clara:
Good point about loosing your job, I would say that 8/10 courses I have run have been paid for by the employer. but I mainly work for large companies i.e more than 20 drivers not sure about the smaller lot only employing 5 or lessCan we set polls up on here? like how many people have actually paid for themselves employed drivers only?
You could set up a poll easily here, it would look like this…
[1] Are you a mug who has paid for work training out of his own pocket?
[2] Did your employer provide your work related training for you?
[3] Are you genuinley against the DCPC even though its being provided for you on the grounds you think its a travesty and you’re not going to do it regardless as you know it all?
I can;t see there being any other scenarios can you?
dieseldave:
In general you are correct Dave, but this is the DCPC we’re reffering to and points mean prizes !!
Whether you need it or not !! BTW, i’m a whizzz with a fire extuinguisher now !!!
Mike-C:
dieseldave:
In general you are correct Dave, but this is the DCPC we’re reffering to and points mean prizes !!
Whether you need it or not !! BTW, i’m a whizzz with a fire extuinguisher now !!!
That’s a cracker Mike!! 
Does our friend leave the extinguisher (and the instructions) in the box until such time as he needed it, because reading and learning in advance would be a waste of his time?? 
dieseldave:
Mike-C:
dieseldave:
In general you are correct Dave, but this is the DCPC we’re reffering to and points mean prizes !!
Whether you need it or not !! BTW, i’m a whizzz with a fire extuinguisher now !!!That’s a cracker Mike!!
Does our friend leave the extinguisher (and the instructions) in the box until such time as he needed it, because reading and learning in advance would be a waste of his time??
I’ll check the box before i make anymore comment !!!
Long distance clara:
please explain why this is in the link then, the key wording is paid or not paid geeeeeez
Looking at the JAUPT (DSA QWANGO) site for legal info is not always the best idea and the link you provided only mentioned the minor RT(WT)R and not the other more important regs which then may impact on the lesser regs
ROG:
Long distance clara:
please explain why this is in the link then, the key wording is paid or not paid geeeeeezLooking at the JAUPT (DSA QWANGO) site for legal info is not always the best idea and the link you provided only mentioned the minor RT(WT)R and not the other more important regs which then may impact on the lesser regs
what about the reference to the drivers eu hours page 12?
Long distance clara:
what about the reference to the drivers eu hours page 12?
Lost me there - which regs? - a link would help
ROG:
Long distance clara:
what about the reference to the drivers eu hours page 12?Lost me there - which regs? - a link would help
There is a link in my previous post. It says exceptions in blue it says DCPC. It then says VOSA in blue click this and go to page 12 of the PDF book. This is Vosa drivers hours book. Let me know what you think, to me it is saying it is not work.
Vehicles used for driving instruction and examination
with a view to obtaining a driving licence or a certificate
of professional competence, provided that they are
not being used for the commercial carriage of goods or
passengers.
Includes instruction for renewal of Driver Certificate of
Professional Competence (CPC).
If that is what you mean then it still has no bearing on the rest issue
ROG:
Vehicles used for driving instruction and examination
with a view to obtaining a driving licence or a certificate
of professional competence, provided that they are
not being used for the commercial carriage of goods or
passengers.
Includes instruction for renewal of Driver Certificate of
Professional Competence (CPC).If that is what you mean then it still has no bearing on the rest issue
Why does this have no bearing if it is an exemption/derogation to drivers hours?
like I say I will phone VOSA tomorrow or Tuesday and I will call 3 different offices to get an answer and I will post the answer here, as stated if i’m wrong I will say so I am more than happy to admit that and learn something new.
From the wording I would say that the vehicles are exempt for eu regs but the driver is still subject to the rules if they have been under EU regs at any time during the fixed week
That would be my take but I expect others who know the rules better than me will be along soon to give their take
Perhaps our resident VOSA chap could give some guidance - Graeme !!
Looks like the £100 CPC Baz was offering has bit the dust. 
Oh well,I’ll just have to " buy " one for £50 instead.
ROG:
From the wording I would say that the vehicles are exempt for eu regs but the driver is still subject to the rules if they have been under EU regs at any time during the fixed weekThat would be my take but I expect others who know the rules better than me will be along soon to give their take
Perhaps our resident VOSA chap could give some guidance - Graeme !!
Either way mate I have weirdly enjoyed looking for information and one thing is for sure there is a lot of cryptic info out there.
Just out of interest, do you train? if not why not, you seem to have a lot of knowledge so why not pass it on in a training venue (genuine question not being funny)
As i have said before I have no problems with being proved wrong if that is the case and I have enjoyed this little debate, hopefully we can get a definite answer soon, then I can spread the word. Luckily I have not miss informed anyone as it has never come up as all my classes have been in working time so a no brainier what has to be booked. All I want to do is give the customer the best service I can but also the right knowledge so I am glad this has come up.
Long distance clara:
like I say I will phone VOSA tomorrow or Tuesday and I will call 3 different offices to get an answer and I will post the answer here, as stated if i’m wrong I will say so I am more than happy to admit that and learn something new.
Save yourself the cost of the phone call(s). This has been discussed on here before and here is the information you seek straight from the horses mouth, as posted already on this thread but you seem to be failing to understand it…
Re: Asking da management to pay for CPC
Postby geebee45 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:10 pm
Firstly, thanks to Rog for alerting me to this thread.Put simply, it doesn’t matter where the dCPC training is undertaken or whether the driver is being paid to attend the course or who pays the course fees; driver or employer, the course time cannot be counted as rest under the EU drivers hours rules.
If you want the detail. EC 561 gives the definitions of; driving time, other work, rest and break. As we all know, ‘rest’ is the period during which a driver may freely dispose of his (or her) time. Being on a compulsory training course doesn’t fit with that definition. ‘Break,’ cannot be claimed as a driver cannot do any ‘driving’ or ‘work’ on a break.
The definition of ‘other work’ in '561 refers back to 2002/15 (EC) our old friend that gave us the Road Transport Working Time Regulations in April 2005. If you look at Article 3 you will find the following definition of work;
‘working time’ shall mean:
- in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say:
– the time devoted to all road transport activities.
These activities are, in particular, the following:
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking
from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.I’ve put the important bit in part 5 in red.
The dCPC is a legal obligation for drivers that wish to use their vocational licence commercially. Therefore the time is ‘other work,’ needs to be recorded as such and cannot be counted as ‘rest’ under the EU drivers hours rules. It also needs recording under the aforementioned RT(WT)R as ‘working time’ and would count towards the maximum ‘working time’ of 60 hours per week or 48 average.
Geebee45 is VOSA so you have your definitive answer.
Coffeeholic:
Long distance clara:
like I say I will phone VOSA tomorrow or Tuesday and I will call 3 different offices to get an answer and I will post the answer here, as stated if i’m wrong I will say so I am more than happy to admit that and learn something new.Save yourself the cost of the phone call(s). This has been discussed on here before and here is the information you seek straight from the horses mouth, as posted already on this thread but you seem to be failing to understand it…
Re: Asking da management to pay for CPC
Postby geebee45 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:10 pm
Firstly, thanks to Rog for alerting me to this thread.Put simply, it doesn’t matter where the dCPC training is undertaken or whether the driver is being paid to attend the course or who pays the course fees; driver or employer, the course time cannot be counted as rest under the EU drivers hours rules.
If you want the detail. EC 561 gives the definitions of; driving time, other work, rest and break. As we all know, ‘rest’ is the period during which a driver may freely dispose of his (or her) time. Being on a compulsory training course doesn’t fit with that definition. ‘Break,’ cannot be claimed as a driver cannot do any ‘driving’ or ‘work’ on a break.
The definition of ‘other work’ in '561 refers back to 2002/15 (EC) our old friend that gave us the Road Transport Working Time Regulations in April 2005. If you look at Article 3 you will find the following definition of work;
‘working time’ shall mean:
- in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say:
– the time devoted to all road transport activities.
These activities are, in particular, the following:
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking
from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.I’ve put the important bit in part 5 in red.
The dCPC is a legal obligation for drivers that wish to use their vocational licence commercially. Therefore the time is ‘other work,’ needs to be recorded as such and cannot be counted as ‘rest’ under the EU drivers hours rules. It also needs recording under the aforementioned RT(WT)R as ‘working time’ and would count towards the maximum ‘working time’ of 60 hours per week or 48 average.
Geebee45 is VOSA so you have your definitive answer.
Looking at that it seems I am wrong and I will apoligise for that, however I will make them calls as a VOSA officer told me it did not count if it was not paid. I will quite happily put if they all say no but will be interesting to see if they give different answers. Thanks for the info though it will come in handy if I’m ever asked the question or if I end up doing weekend courses.
Like I have said before we can all learn from each other so happy days.