Automatics V Manuals

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
121

newmercman:
I know that the AMTs are adding to the dumbing down of the industry, there will be drivers out there that have never used a clutch in a lorry, just as there are drivers who haven’t driven a lorry with a constant mesh box, or steel suspension, or without a speed limiter, never roped and sheeted a load.

Just as I never drove a lorry without power steering, or without a heater of any kind. My Dad never shoveled coal to get his lorry moving, it’s called progress. Where do you draw the line and say the old ways were better?

Ironically,with the exception of there having been a number of modern day refinements to the auto choice itself such as I shift and updated torque converter Allison type,the actual driving side of the choice,between auto v manual,isn’t really anything more new now than it was in the 1960’s/70’s.IE the reasoning probably remains similar especially in the urban stop start environment.On that note the choice between 18 speed manual fuller v auto for example is no more a matter of progress as someone choosing a 2003 E39 BMW M5 over a same year or even earlier auto 5 series.Or someone buying an even more recent Vauxhall VXR8 because BMW no longer offer a manual option in that range.Make no mistake,unlike essentials like power steering and turn key engine start rather than firing up a steamer,the issue of manual v auto is/should always be simply a matter of driver choice and that applies whether it’s the car world or the truck world.Both types having their own individual upsides and downsides,but not one of progress.On that note it would be interesting to see what the take up might be for the manual 18 speed if it was given similar developments as car type manuals are getting like auto rev matching on the downshifts which would at least remove the hill descent safety angle. :bulb:

topgear.com/car-news/british … ood-news#1

122

The 18spd has been given similar development to the car type manuals.

It’s called ishift!

123

newmercman:
The 18spd has been given similar development to the car type manuals.

It’s called ishift!

The I shift is a fully automated manual just like the auto Sportshift 111 option in the case the Aston car example.As I said giving the 18 speed an auto rev matching facility would be the equivalent of the 7 speed Aston or Porsche manual option v the auto Sportshift etc ( I shift ) while obviously removing any arguable safety advantage for the auto option when descending hills under braking.

youtube.com/watch?v=FiOSNFdPpbs

124

You can use ishift as a manual and get the rev matching soundtrack to go with it, just pop it into manual and use the buttons on the side of the stick. You get the same perfectly timed shifts, but when YOU want them, not the computer.

The manual function pretty much takes care of all the negative aspects of an AMT. Even the ZF versions hated by so many are never left hanging out to dry if you use the manual function.

Best of both worlds, you have the ability to leave it to do its thing, like coming off a roundabout, just hit resume on the CC and away she goes, approaching the roundabout, slip her into manual and change down into the gear you want it to be in by pushing a button.

I know you’re having a hard time accepting the concept CF, but seriously, once you try it and see for yourself how good they can be if used correctly, you’d be converted. Especially when it makes a lightning fast up shift going around a tight bend, applying the engine brake to bring rpms down, you can’t help but be impressed by how good they are.

125

Same thing climbing a greasy haul road coming out of the landfill site I use.
It can change up through the gears quick enough not to loose traction while accelevating in a manual you have to crawl up in second or third as you can’t change quick enough and end up loosing to much momentum

126

newmercman:
Especially when it makes a lightning fast up shift going around a tight bend, applying the engine brake to bring rpms down, you can’t help but be impressed by how good they are.

That might be the case with Volvo’s and now to the newer improved Scania box (which if my ear holes don’t mislead me make use of the exhaust brake on up shifts to bring the revs down quickly for meshing)

However ‘‘lightning fast shift’’ and the present version of Arsetronic will not currently be found in the same sentence, but yes the box is infinitely better for being used in manual mode…however DAF have bolloxed that option up completely by programming the box to default to ecoA after 30 seconds to a minute and will not respond to manual input until you’ve scrolled past A to M, left to its own devices Arsetronic is about as much use as a chocolate teapot for reliable gearchanges…the finer points of how utterly awful the programming is in Dafs have been described superbly by Franglais in the Dear Daf thread.
The most amazing thing though, whilst never going to be my first choice of box, in MANs the Arsetronic functions are in comparison to Dafs complete balls ups have made it a vastly better vehicle from a drivers perspective :open_mouth:

To be fair to the other makes, i can count on one hand the number of times i’ve interfered with Volvo’s box, and thats going right back to around 1992/3 when i drove an FL10 Geartronic regularly.
Scanias box stalled out on me across a main road when i’d had me first 3 pedal auto i 2006, from that moment i’ve driven every Scania auto in manual mode, but to be fair to Scania the box is a lovely drive in manual, where Arsetronic doesn’t always respond the Scania box does and instantly, with noticeably faster changes if you use it in MH or latterly MP, but as i said before, you can hear the exhauster engage momentarily on upshifts as the revs drop so its getting better all the time, plus Scania allows driver input to select changes manually whilst leaving it in Auto.

To sum up, whilst Volvo needs almost no interference (helped no end by the superb engine brake), Scanias do benefit IMHO from a switched on driver but they’ve made it easy and responsive for the driver who does like to fine tune vehicle performance.
In my honest opinion ZF seriously need to up their game, there is no denying the long reliability of the present box, but in comparison with the Swedish offerings (Scania upping their game constantly) its a poor also ran, along with MB.

I’m really looking forward to trying out the new Scanias when they arrive in my workplace, possibly in time for my next new one :sunglasses: (please Lord don’t let it be a Daf :cry: ), hopefully the gearbox will be better still, and hopefully they will have improved the rather pointless present standard exhaust brake.

127

Despite all the complaints, I found the Astronic alright in off road mode. Even MANs’ “DX” mode was spot on, it was just ■■■■ poor on the open road and made a 400bhp 8wheeler pull like a 300.

128

We have a cf where I work I have only driven it once and Although the auto isn’t a patch on I shift it didn’t make the thing undriveable like your making it sound.
It is a pile of cap but I just don’t like dafs full stop.

129

kr79:
We have a cf where I work I have only driven it once and Although the auto isn’t a patch on I shift it didn’t make the thing undriveable like your making it sound.
It is a pile of cap but I just don’t like dafs full stop.

Have a read of Franglais excellent posts on the Dear Daf thread, parts 1through to 4 (so far), he as always explains things far better than i could.

That CF you’ve driven, is it 65 or newer, has it lost the foot operated exhaust brake, does it default to ecoA after up to a minute no matter that you’ve selected A or D, if the answer is no to both, then you have one of the previous (possibly even early euro6) models which are superb compared to the latest ‘improvements’.

And yes the latest version is not driveable with any professionalism or pleasure.

I’m not anti Daf, i drove 2300, 2500, 2600s in years gone by, had several 2800’s which were bloody good lorries and drove 3300’s which to be honest didn’t seem any better.
Never thought much of the small engined 95, my last lorry was a CF 460 manual which was a superb little motor, would outpull near enough everything normal on the road and good on fuel to boot.

Arestronic ruins Daf’s, just like MB’s auto ruins square Axors, the latest euro 6 Dafs are in a new league altogether though, especially if saddled with the 440 lump trying to shift 44 ton on mixed terrain.

130

It’s a 14 plate I think it’s euro 6 as it has the newer type front grille.
I didn’t play with it much as I was driving around urban East London and out to Tilbury dock so let the auto do the work.

131

kr79:
It’s a 14 plate I think it’s euro 6 as it has the newer type front grille.
I didn’t play with it much as I was driving around urban East London and out to Tilbury dock so let the auto do the work.

My mate got a 64 plate and he was thoroughly disappointed, but compared to the latest ‘improvements’ its bloody wonderful.

How unfortunate :smiling_imp: with a 14 plate that you missed out on the joys of the lane departure buzzers, automatic braking/distance control and the pleasures of the box desperately trying to keep you in ecoA… :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

132

Thankfully we only inherited it after my boss bought another firm out.

133

There is a recurring theme in the positive comments and that is that in both Scania and Volvo’s cases the engine and box are produced by the same firm, I.e. the vehicle manufacturer. In the case of DAF and MAN they are not, which must give an indication of where some of the problems come from.

My recollections of AS-Tronic is that it is unpredictable crap which, if left to its own devices, would chose the wrong gear more often than it would not, be that when pulling away from a standing start or proceeding through the box, and something that would take revs needlessly high even in conjunction with the 13-litre motor, which develops its torque well down the rev range.

134

I’ve just thought of a negative aspect on ishift!

It selects too high a gear for pulling away, especially when bobtail. 3rd gear is too high to get a loaded lorry moving in my opinion, that produces a lot of heat in the clutch, so I prefer to get it off the line in 1st and show the driveline a little more sympathy.

135

Not a real drivers truck without a proper manual gearbox…except of course the ■■■■■■ Eaton twin splitter. Autos are made so numpties can use them without figuring out how to use those two switches on the front and side of the gear lever ie a range change and splitter box…

136

AndrewG:
Not a real drivers truck without a proper manual gearbox…except of course the [zb] Eaton twin splitter. Autos are made so numpties can use them without figuring out how to use those two switches on the front and side of the gear lever ie a range change and splitter box…

The first time I heard my Dad swear, he was driving a Foden with a twin splitter and Gardner 270 turbo. Even our Allegro :blush: :laughing: hadn’t managed that. Dad did like that old Foden though, rated it as his favourite truck he’d ever driven.

137

A good driver can achieve lower fuel consumption with a manual than with an auto. A poor driver does best with an auto. That used to be accepted wisdom but the more recent boxes are good and using gps they do seem to have a better idea of when to shift. Your boss has certainly given you an auto because he doesn’t trust you to use the right gear. When he can buy a truck wbich can steer itself…

138

AndrewG:
Not a real drivers truck without a proper manual gearbox…except of course the [zb] Eaton twin splitter. Autos are made so numpties can use them without figuring out how to use those two switches on the front and side of the gear lever ie a range change and splitter box…

Drivers now-a-days and younger drivers don’t get a say on what type of gear box they are to use when joining our merry band.

In my experience , possibly no where near the amount you have, I have driven autos (Iveco, Mercedes, DAF , scania opticruise) and manuals (8 gear slap over, or my current vehicle , scania 6 gear with splitter and range change)

But that’s because I’ve been fortunate to have the opportunity to drive them vehicles and if I’m totally honest I couldn’t care for which one is better , I adjust my driving style to the gear box.

If a driver has only ever driven an auto, then that’s all he will know. Doesn’t make him a numpty, makes him victim of progress. A when attitudes towards younger people is to view them as numpties (not every one I will admit, but the negative people always stand out) then no wonder they don’t want to join the industry.

A numpty will be a numpty before they get in a wagon. Manual or auto.

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139

sinclair89:

AndrewG:
Not a real drivers truck without a proper manual gearbox…except of course the [zb] Eaton twin splitter. Autos are made so numpties can use them without figuring out how to use those two switches on the front and side of the gear lever ie a range change and splitter box…

Drivers now-a-days and younger drivers don’t get a say on what type of gear box they are to use when joining our merry band.

In my experience , possibly no where near the amount you have, I have driven autos (Iveco, Mercedes, DAF , scania opticruise) and manuals (8 gear slap over, or my current vehicle , scania 6 gear with splitter and range change)

But that’s because I’ve been fortunate to have the opportunity to drive them vehicles and if I’m totally honest I couldn’t care for which one is better , I adjust my driving style to the gear box.

If a driver has only ever driven an auto, then that’s all he will know. Doesn’t make him a numpty, makes him victim of progress. A when attitudes towards younger people is to view them as numpties (not every one I will admit, but the negative people always stand out) then no wonder they don’t want to join the industry.

A numpty will be a numpty before they get in a wagon. Manual or auto.

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Well said that man. It’s that moronic attitude that’s wrong with this industry.
No dobut when old super trucker started the old timers moaned he had it easy as he never had to get the boiler lit up in a senitel before he started

140

My driver is a lad from Yorkshire and he’s a proper Yorkshireman, worked down t’pit, had a whippet and all that, always drove ERF and Seddon Atkis.

When he started I gave him the choice of lorries, one with ishift or the one with the 13spd Fuller, he chose the ishift and he likes it so much that he’s driving me mad to sell it to him.

That says it all.