I didn’t mention ishift ffs.
Now answer the question!
What difference does it make whether I float shift or double de clutch?
You say that the Eaton Fuller manual says to use the clutch, but so what? It says Guinness on the side of some buses, but they’re not full of Guinness.
I want to know the reason why you say I’m doing it wrong by not using the clutch to shift between gears with an Eaton Fuller Road Ranger constant mesh transmission.
Juddian:
…
Ah, so even you lads can’t modify the Arsetronic mode settings, at least for the moment, thats definately not the answer i was hoping for but many thanks for taking the time to answer, it does however give me something else to think about that should i end up with one what my choice to stay or go will be (i had hoped this constant defaulting back to ecoA could be overridden by the dealer workshops), won’t be quite so bad if they spec the engine up to a 460, but with these small engines and a box you can’t control (won’t stay in M) frustrating doesn’t even begin to cover it when you’re always at 43 tons plus when loaded and have a good days work to cover.
…
When I had an accident last year, I was given a Scania 450 with the latest version of the opticruise. It was programmed to drive in eco mode and eco mode only, so over a speed of 40 miles, there was no possibilty for the driver to do anything. When I asked scania to alter that, so I could use the normal drive or power mode, the answer was they were not allowed on demonstrating vehicles, because fuel would go up.
It was however possible when my boss phoned them and said he wanted to compare my 500 with the 450 and needed the driver to drive the same way he drove the 500. 
On comparing auto versus manual, I can compare the Volvo I shift versus the manual , the scania opticruise, new and older version vs the manual, and both autos with each other, because we have all those in our fleet.
Altough I drive a manual Scania at the moment, I think the I shift is better with the newest opticruise a very good second.
Both are better then the manual imho, because they make no mistakes while I will, lack of concentration, tiredness etc.
Recently I had a Mercedes demonstrator for a week, and it did well, but the opticruise and Ishift are better.
I never drove an Daf astronic or an Iveco, so can not comment on those.
There are a few instances when the manual is better, but an auto where the driver can interfere is imho the better solution.
bald:
Juddian:
…
Ah, so even you lads can’t modify the Arsetronic mode settings, at least for the moment, thats definately not the answer i was hoping for but many thanks for taking the time to answer, it does however give me something else to think about that should i end up with one what my choice to stay or go will be (i had hoped this constant defaulting back to ecoA could be overridden by the dealer workshops), won’t be quite so bad if they spec the engine up to a 460, but with these small engines and a box you can’t control (won’t stay in M) frustrating doesn’t even begin to cover it when you’re always at 43 tons plus when loaded and have a good days work to cover.
…Recently I had a Mercedes demonstrator for a week, and it did well, but the opticruise and Ishift are better.
I never drove an Daf astronic or an Iveco, so can not comment on those.There are a few instances when the manual is better, but an auto where the driver can interfere is imho the better solution.
Arsetronic about as nice to use as Mercs effort IMHO, if you haven’t had the displeasure of one be thankful for small mercies 
,the same box finds its way into MAN’s as well, but i’ve read that Scanias box will be fitted to MAN 4x2 versions in due course, it will be interesting to see how the Scania box works with MAN’s engines, unless there are plans to slip Scani engines under the bonnet too?
However whatever driver’s feeling towards the box there is no denying the ZF unit’s reliability, its becoming little short of legendary.
newmercman:
I didn’t mention ishift ffs.Now answer the question!
What difference does it make whether I float shift or double de clutch?
You say that the Eaton Fuller manual says to use the clutch, but so what? It says Guinness on the side of some buses, but they’re not full of Guinness.
I want to know the reason why you say I’m doing it wrong by not using the clutch to shift between gears with an Eaton Fuller Road Ranger constant mesh transmission.
As you said yourself floating gears needs a ‘perfect’ engine road speed match in addition to perfect timing to avoid any torque reversal in the transmission before shifting it into neutral.You also said that I shift is better than manual because it does a more consistent job in that regard ?.
Putting a clutched shift into the equation is obviously a relative game changer in that regard.
While an ‘instruction’ to use the clutch not float shifts in the driver manual ain’t the same thing as an ‘advert’ for Guinness on the side of a bus. 
Now I’d like an answer to the question as to why Eaton have decided to put that ‘instruction’ in their operation manual ? and on that basis how anyone can compare the consistency of floated manual shifts with those made by an I shift ?. 
The few times that I drive an auto I find that I use the brakes a lot more often.
Juddian:
Norb,thanks for those replies, yes the lane departure thingy i know i can switch off but to be quite honest the switchgear is so hapazardly laid out that by the time i was on the B road and the bloody thing buzzing its arse off it was too dicey for me to try to find the bloody correct switch, i only drive the things once in a blue moon at the moment and fingers crossed thats how it stays, unfortunately the drivers who have them issued are regular long term sick notes so these tractors are the ones available when i need another one
, fingers crossed i don’t get a permanent issue of one.
Yes there was trouble with synchros on the manuals but as with most problems you lads have to fix it was poor driving IMHO…again full circle as to why we now have autos
Ah, so even you lads can’t modify the Arsetronic mode settings, at least for the moment, thats definately not the answer i was hoping for but many thanks for taking the time to answer, it does however give me something else to think about that should i end up with one what my choice to stay or go will be (i had hoped this constant defaulting back to ecoA could be overridden by the dealer workshops), won’t be quite so bad if they spec the engine up to a 460, but with these small engines and a box you can’t control (won’t stay in M) frustrating doesn’t even begin to cover it when you’re always at 43 tons plus when loaded and have a good days work to cover.
There comes a point if the job has been dumbed down to idiot level enough and that final straw breaks that its no longer possible to take any pride such as lorry driving pleasure in your work, with some of the latest lorries we’re reaching that point rapidly.
Again, thanks for taking the time to answer my pleas for some hope of regaining a little sanity…
Our 460 Euro6 came in about 1 year ago. We were told they were the first with that particular spec of gearbox/eco set up. As delivered the last one had the button on end of retarder lever giving 3 options.
Turn on engine it is in default Eco mode.
Push button it goes into full power mode.
Push button again it goes into manual. But, if you select a gear in manual and then back off the gas pedal it will revert to auto and often change up. This is particularly horrible if in a tight road on a slope, looking to lock into a gear and control the vehicle on the gas pedal. Truly nasty is being kind to it.
This caused our boss to receive such an ear bashing that it has now been lifted from our trucks by the dealers. We now have full power auto or manual. No eco settings now, and when in auto no reversion to auto automatically. Sometimes there are loud cluncky gear-changes from some of ours. Dealer says no faults found.
Unlike those Euro6 models immediately preceding ours there is no separate exhauster button, only the engine brake. The button under the throttle pedal is not a gear kickdown, and only over-rides the driver set speed limiter.
Our trucks are on a full R & M, and the dealer did the software mod work, so it cant affect any warranty. So, Juddian maybe you can take a little heart that the software is (or was 11 months ago) modifiable. We had 460 and 480 manuals before and they were lovely things to drive. We have some earlier 460 Euro 6 and Euro 5 autos and the box (from the factory) is better than on our newest ones, IMHO. Seems to me DAF have lost the plot with their latest offering. Engine vibration on later Euro 6s that doesnt seem so marked on the earlier Euro 6s too. Same driver, same work, about a 1mpg benefit on a new Euro 6 above a 10year old 480 manual. The latest trucks will go up a pretty steep climb without going much above half way on temp gauge, whereas the older ones would go above 3/4 if you let them, so that should increase engine life.
Carryfast:
newmercman:
I didn’t mention ishift ffs.Now answer the question!
What difference does it make whether I float shift or double de clutch?
You say that the Eaton Fuller manual says to use the clutch, but so what? It says Guinness on the side of some buses, but they’re not full of Guinness.
I want to know the reason why you say I’m doing it wrong by not using the clutch to shift between gears with an Eaton Fuller Road Ranger constant mesh transmission.
As you said yourself floating gears needs a ‘perfect’ engine road speed match in addition to perfect timing to avoid any torque reversal in the transmission before shifting it into neutral.You also said that I shift is better than manual because it does a more consistent job in that regard ?.
Putting a clutched shift into the equation is obviously a relative game changer in that regard.
While an ‘instruction’ to use the clutch not float shifts in the driver manual ain’t the same thing as an ‘advert’ for Guinness on the side of a bus.
carryfast,ive really really tried to digest your answer to newmercmans question above,and i still cant get it…
so can you expain in simple English what difference it makes whether you float gears or double declutch?
and yes i have got plenty of experience of mr fullers wonderful 13 speed (about five years worth in total in two MAN F90 eight wheelers) ,my favourite gearbox ever,and yes i can do clutchless changes all day …
answer the bloody question without sounding like you just swallowed an eaton fuller instruction manual ffs.
He won’t come up with an answer because there is no answer. Not that it will stop him trying to prove otherwise with paragraph after paragraph of waffle.
I blame Thatcher…
newmercman:
He won’t come up with an answer because there is no answer. Not that it will stop him trying to prove otherwise with paragraph after paragraph of waffle.I blame Thatcher…
clearly,along with" federalist" this and that and other stuff i’m already lost on.i still cant get past the thought of carryfast having a few lines before he comes on here!!!
andrew.s:
carryfast,ive really really tried to digest your answer to newmercmans question above,and i still cant get it…
so can you expain in simple English what difference it makes whether you float gears or double declutch?
and yes i have got plenty of experience of mr fullers wonderful 13 speed (about five years worth in total in two MAN F90 eight wheelers) ,my favourite gearbox ever,and yes i can do clutchless changes all day …
answer the bloody question without sounding like you just swallowed an eaton fuller instruction manual ffs.
Let’s get this right nmm made a sarcastic comment regarding the superiority of I shift over a manual along the lines that even the best super trucker will still get shifts wrong in the form of mismatched/missed shifts.By previous comments he’s clearly referring to floated shifts in that regard.
I’ve explained why floating gears makes a difference in that regard as confirmed by nmm’s comments IE without seperating the transmission from the engine when shifting into neutral and into the next gear the matching and timing has to be ‘perfect’.Arguably too perfect especially if it needs to be done fast.Which is why the instruction manual says use the bleedin clutch don’t float gears. 
It’s only on ‘that’ basis that any arguable superiority of I shift over manual,at least regards the consistency of shift quality,needs to be viewed. Sorry if that doesn’t fit the auto fan boy script but don’t shoot the messenger.
Alhough I like autos, I hate the fact that they can now be locked away from the driver. Our Scanias have been castrated by the bean counters. They are billybob basic G series, 3 pedal Opticruise models. It makes no difference if you’re in Eco mode or not, get above 30 and it will not let you manually change the gears. It is infuriating to drive because you as a driver can see a hill coming yet you can’t drop a gear. On the subject of these new computer trucks, the engine cutouts. I don’t know who told Scania to make the engine shut off after 30 seconds but they need a good slap… Clearly someone who’s never driven a truck has specced that. Its down right dangerous because you cannot override it. If the little engine icon starts flashing, you’re ■■■■■■. I was pulling out from under a trailer, in gear and rolling when it died, now imagine that on a busy roundabout.
Whilst I believe I can have the same level of control with an auto compared to a manual I do miss the simplicity of one. A box where, I the driver was in control. When I was driving my Premium with its unfettled engine and its wonderful iShift, technology and automation was a wonderful addition. Not having to worry about gears in traffic but at the same time I could take control if I saw the need. Driving these new Scania’s is an exercise in frustration. Can’t change down, the cruise control will knock itself off as you are coming over a hill. I don’t use CC anymore. ■■■■ the necktie in the office who pours over the Microlise charts to see where he can cut next.
As much as I hate the Daf’s at our place, they are mercifully unmolested by the bean counters. 56 or more, complete control over the gears, the choice of using Eco mode or not, engine cutouts can be override by blipping the throttle.
Carryfast:
andrew.s:
carryfast,ive really really tried to digest your answer to newmercmans question above,and i still cant get it…
so can you expain in simple English what difference it makes whether you float gears or double declutch?
and yes i have got plenty of experience of mr fullers wonderful 13 speed (about five years worth in total in two MAN F90 eight wheelers) ,my favourite gearbox ever,and yes i can do clutchless changes all day …
answer the bloody question without sounding like you just swallowed an eaton fuller instruction manual ffs.Let’s get this right nmm made a sarcastic comment regarding the superiority of I shift over a manual along the lines that even the best super trucker will still get shifts wrong in the form of mismatched/missed shifts.By previous comments he’s clearly referring to floated shifts in that regard.
I’ve explained why floating gears makes a difference in that regard as confirmed by nmm’s comments IE without seperating the transmission from the engine when shifting into neutral and into the next gear the matching and timing has to be ‘perfect’.Arguably too perfect especially if it needs to be done fast.Which is why the instruction manual says use the bleedin clutch don’t float gears.
Again, what’s the difference between using the clutch or not? The meshing of the cogs takes place behind the clutch and half of them will be spinning at the same speed regardless of whether you use the clutch or not, the ones that will be slowed or speeded up during clutch disengagement will still need to match the speed of the others to mesh accurately, so it’s what you do with your right boot that’s important, not your left boot.
Making the perfect shift is all down to timing, regardless of how many appendages you use to do it and that is where ishift is superior, it has perfect timing and gives almost seamless changes, no way could you replicate a fast upshift without ripping it out of one gear and into the next and even then I doubt you could shift as fast and changing down, no chance.
As an example, coming over the Rockies this past week I have to approach the top of a hill ready to maintain control, first I have to downshift and engage the engine brake and once I start descending I have to change up or down and increase or decrease the engine brake performance to maintain a safe speed down the road, with ishift I just push the button on the end of the engine brake stalk to engage downhill cruise and it does it all for me, literally all of it, I set a speed and it goes down at that speed, obviously I need to be at the right speed on the approach and set a realistic speed for it to hold, but it’s a one touch and forget procedure and a safer way to descend a hill in a loaded lorry.
I did throw a little sarcasm into my earlier response, but in all seriousness, I have driven lorries with constant mesh gearboxes for half of my 30yrs of driving lorries, from 6spd boxes in Leyland Clydesdales, 6spd David Browns in Seddon Atkis, that awful 12spd ZF in Dafs and Mercs, twin splitters in ERF/Foden/Ford/Leyland/SA/IVECO/Hino, 9/10/13/18spd Fullers in Berliet/Dafs/ERF/Ford/MAN/KW/Peterbilt/Volvo. So I’m quite good at making them change gear without any fuss.
And I reckon ishift is the better gearbox by far.
Sent from my SM-T805W using Tapatalk
Franglais:
Juddian:
Norb,Our 460 Euro6 came in about 1 year ago. We were told they were the first with that particular spec of gearbox/eco set up. As delivered the last one had the button on end of retarder lever giving 3 options.
Turn on engine it is in default Eco mode.
Push button it goes into full power mode.
Push button again it goes into manual. But, if you select a gear in manual and then back off the gas pedal it will revert to auto and often change up. This is particularly horrible if in a tight road on a slope, looking to lock into a gear and control the vehicle on the gas pedal. Truly nasty is being kind to it.
This caused our boss to receive such an ear bashing that it has now been lifted from our trucks by the dealers. We now have full power auto or manual. No eco settings now, and when in auto no reversion to auto automatically. Sometimes there are loud cluncky gear-changes from some of ours. Dealer says no faults found.
Unlike those Euro6 models immediately preceding ours there is no separate exhauster button, only the engine brake. The button under the throttle pedal is not a gear kickdown, and only over-rides the driver set speed limiter.
Our trucks are on a full R & M, and the dealer did the software mod work, so it cant affect any warranty. So, Juddian maybe you can take a little heart that the software is (or was 11 months ago) modifiable. We had 460 and 480 manuals before and they were lovely things to drive. We have some earlier 460 Euro 6 and Euro 5 autos and the box (from the factory) is better than on our newest ones, IMHO. Seems to me DAF have lost the plot with their latest offering. Engine vibration on later Euro 6s that doesnt seem so marked on the earlier Euro 6s too. Same driver, same work, about a 1mpg benefit on a new Euro 6 above a 10year old 480 manual. The latest trucks will go up a pretty steep climb without going much above half way on temp gauge, whereas the older ones would go above 3/4 if you let them, so that should increase engine life.
Thanks Franglais thats a bit more encouraging.
Sounds like we are reading from the same hymnsheet and have similar poor experiences of the latest models, i’ve only driven them a few days which was a few days too many
Norb’s post did sound like the mechanics are unaware of these subtle changes to the latest version (thats handy considering they’re supposed to be fixing the sods ), but he did mention he would ask technical, maybe just maybe if experienced techs like him start relaying genuine concerns, and those of us with real complaints list them on Muckaways Dear Daf thread, someone might give a nudge to Daf’s technical that the latest backward innovations are not working and getting the marque a bad name with drivers.
As you rightly say, the previous 460 manual was a cracking bit of kit, i prefer the CF for our work anyway and my old one just did all i asked of it well.
Unfortunately ours are saddled with the smallest engine too, the 440, words fail me on that thing, you should try one at 44 tons on some of our routes for a new definition of utter misery, not only won’t they pull you out of bed but they drink fuel like its free, whoda thunkit
Heartening that your dealer has sorted the eco ■■■■■■■■ (and sounds like it stays in M if selected just like the early euro 6), unfortunately our lot don’t listen to drivers so getting the same revisions carried out will be a battle, and the drivers who have them regularly (if at work at all ) probably wouldn’t know what we’ve been talking about.
However i will pass the fact on it can be removed at dealer level to our steward.
It also gives me a half way house negotiating point should i get issued one…i’m not well in and wasn’t asked last what i want like some others have been, see no reason for that to change…don’t really want to leave the job but the thought of me last 5 years in one of these with this ecoA ■■■■■■■■ might be too much to bear, sad as it might sound i do still take a little pride in me job despite the best efforts to prevent that, plus as i mentioned before its the only lorry in all my driving life thats ever given me a bad back, so there’s another reason.
I`ll maybe follow your suggestion and put a longer post in the Dear DAF thread regarding gearbox software etc. And a few other gripes too.
P.S. PM sent to you.
Carryfast:
Let’s get this right nmm made a sarcastic comment regarding the superiority of I shift over a manual along the lines that even the best super trucker will still get shifts wrong in the form of mismatched/missed shifts.By previous comments he’s clearly referring to floated shifts in that regard.I’ve explained why floating gears makes a difference in that regard as confirmed by nmm’s comments IE without seperating the transmission from the engine when shifting into neutral and into the next gear the matching and timing has to be ‘perfect’.Arguably too perfect especially if it needs to be done fast.Which is why the instruction manual says use the bleedin clutch don’t float gears.
You’ve still not driven a truck with Ishift or any modern auto, so I don’t know how you can make an informed opinion on if it’s better or worse than a manual?
However it has many fans on both sides of the Atlantic, these are people who actually drive the trucks, many who have driven many trucks with many other types of gearbox and not all of them will be floating gearshifts but will be using clutches.
Personally I think coupled with the Volvo Engine Brake, it one of the best set-ups I’ve ever driven. I’ve driven Volvo’s with this set-up across Europe, over snow covered mountain ranges, I’ve driven the version fitted to Renault in forests, on building sites and farms they handled everything thrown at them as well as any manual set-up including low speed maneuvering, and was equally as reliable and didn’t cost us any more in maintenance.
The worst gearbox I’ve ever driven…The nine speed slap across as fitted to Axors and Ategos. A slight improvement when fitted to the Axor I tried for a T and D feature but still crap in comparisson to even any constant mesh ‘box I’ve used.
The 12 speed Eaton I had in the Alpha wasn’t great either. Leaked air, mounting bolts as strong as Dr Crippens’ alibi (two snapped coming up Birdlip of all places) and not as quick at changing as Dafs’ 8 or 16 speed offerings. Also I got fed up with know alls telling me I had a twin splitter when I didn’t. 
Juddian:
then it doesn’t bode well for the greater number of vocation drivers out there who for their own reasons want auto
I can answer that. On Thursday night I spent 40 minutes travelling two junctions on the M42 from the M6 split to the NEC. That would have been murder in a manual is it would have been on Friday evening where it was stop start all the way from J24 on the M62 to the M60/M62 split at J12. Had enough of playing that game.
Conor:
Juddian:
then it doesn’t bode well for the greater number of vocation drivers out there who for their own reasons want autoI can answer that. On Thursday night I spent 40 minutes travelling two junctions on the M42 from the M6 split to the NEC. That would have been murder in a manual is it would have been on Friday evening where it was stop start all the way from J24 on the M62 to the M60/M62 split at J12. Had enough of playing that game.
Now personally i don’t find traffic any easier with an Arsetronic to be honest, its not like you’re needing both legs to hold the bloody unassisted clutch down on a Scammell Crusader (i kid you not), to be fair the autoclutch engagement on the euro6 is miles better than it was on previous incarnations which were basically an off switch…sod me 
, i’ve actually found something they have improved on and i claim my £5.
Luckily now with the new traffic system on the Garmins its not that often i get stuck in such jams, peak times now sees me on many of the old roads avoiding the major routes at all costs, another good thing about tanks not many bridges bother you and trees of no consequence at all, the cars were a sod for that no ducking and diving about then
newmercman:
Again, what’s the difference between using the clutch or not? The meshing of the cogs takes place behind the clutch and half of them will be spinning at the same speed regardless of whether you use the clutch or not, the ones that will be slowed or speeded up during clutch disengagement will still need to match the speed of the others to mesh accurately, so it’s what you do with your right boot that’s important, not your left boot.Making the perfect shift is all down to timing, regardless of how many appendages you use to do it and that is where ishift is superior, it has perfect timing and gives almost seamless changes, no way could you replicate a fast upshift without ripping it out of one gear and into the next and even then I doubt you could shift as fast and changing down, no chance.
As an example, coming over the Rockies this past week I have to approach the top of a hill ready to maintain control, first I have to downshift and engage the engine brake and once I start descending I have to change up or down and increase or decrease the engine brake performance to maintain a safe speed down the road, with ishift I just push the button on the end of the engine brake stalk to engage downhill cruise and it does it all for me, literally all of it, I set a speed and it goes down at that speed, obviously I need to be at the right speed on the approach and set a realistic speed for it to hold, but it’s a one touch and forget procedure and a safer way to descend a hill in a loaded lorry.
I did throw a little sarcasm into my earlier response, but in all seriousness, I have driven lorries with constant mesh gearboxes for half of my 30yrs of driving lorries, from 6spd boxes in Leyland Clydesdales, 6spd David Browns in Seddon Atkis, that awful 12spd ZF in Dafs and Mercs, twin splitters in ERF/Foden/Ford/Leyland/SA/IVECO/Hino, 9/10/13/18spd Fullers in Berliet/Dafs/ERF/Ford/MAN/KW/Peterbilt/Volvo. So I’m quite good at making them change gear without any fuss.
And I reckon ishift is the better gearbox by far.
Firstly there’s no way that I’d argue about the superiority of I shift in the specific case of descending inclines or for that matter the similar issue of comparing synchro with constant.IE the problem of not being able to maintain braking while downshifting for example is the main flaw in the constant mesh manual and it’s my guess that’s why Euroland has gone for the choice of synchro or auto. Although having said that even a synchro box will obstruct and block a downshift rather than synchronise it when road speed and engine speed have gone outside a certain point in the case of a run away truck.So yes it’s difficult to argue against something which can rev match and synchronise a downshift automatically without any need for driver input in that regard thereby allowing the driver to maintain braking while the truck gets on with the downshifting and engine braking side of the equation.Thereby reducing the chance of a run away.
As for floated v clutched shifts it’s only in the case of the long obsolete sliding mesh type where you’re actually meshing gears hence the term ‘constant’ mesh.The point in either case being that leaving the engine connected to the transmission when actually shifting into or out of the gear creates too many variables in terms of an engine speed change or torque reversal between engine and trans.Which is why I said comparing the consistency of floated manual shifts with those of I shift is an unfair apples with oranges comparison.
While the safety benefits,regarding descending hills etc,is much more difficult to argue with.Although having said that the bottom of North American hills and mountains or even Euro ones have never exactly been littered with wreckage of run away trucks caused by drivers missing gears of constant mesh boxes while descending them.Which must say something about the ability of the human brain attached to two arms and legs and a pair of eyes.
I’m not suggesting that it’s an Ice Road Truckers will he explode in a ball of flames through missing a gear type situation, but it’s a whole lot easier with ishift.
I know that the AMTs are adding to the dumbing down of the industry, there will be drivers out there that have never used a clutch in a lorry, just as there are drivers who haven’t driven a lorry with a constant mesh box, or steel suspension, or without a speed limiter, never roped and sheeted a load.
Just as I never drove a lorry without power steering, or without a heater of any kind. My Dad never shoveled coal to get his lorry moving, it’s called progress. Where do you draw the line and say the old ways were better?
