Decent enough post Juddian, as you say there will never be a shortage of license holders or bum’s on seats etc who will get the job down but there will always be a shortage of good professional drivers. Its probably the same in most industries to be fair.
Bking:
Muckaway:
Bking:
Muckaway:
And the last time you drove an Eaton 9 speed or Spicer?
If you cant appreciate the difference in heavy vehicle control between some computer controlled hybrid and a full non syncro stick shift box then you really shouldnt ask stupid questions.Talk about stupid questions and you pose one. Where did I say “what’s the difference?”
Wind your neck in and your head will uncouple from your sphincter muscles.
To answer your question, about 5 years ago, when the last of the fleet with non synchros were pensioned off.And what “non syncro” box were these prey tell?
Look at muckaways posts he drove fodens and erf for years
simon1958:
SO. Looks like silicon chip’s taking over then; equal. Maybe the acid test would be like this.
Two drivers. Same route. Same drop.
One industrial outlet, two identical units, one with an auto box, the other with a manual. Both outfits tare at the same; both go over the weighbridge @ gross 44tonne leaving site. Now give the challenge as to which driver returns the max MPG over the trip there and back. Now swap drivers on day two. Would the result be looking good on fuel returns? Just a question and no malice on the subject.At the end of the day, it’s the company’s profit margin that doesn’t want to be soaked with fuel costs especially now the £ at a low ebb .
Firstly the idea of automated manual ( conventional clutch and gear train ) v torque converter type will obviously minimise any large differences from the point of view of the transmission itself.IE even the best driver combined with the best case scenario of modern locking converters won’t fix all the losses associated with the torque converter type trans.
Which leaves the issue of the driver has eyes while at best the auto relies on terrain mapping.Which obviously can’t account for every situation.While the driver can also apply finer control over gear selection in that situation by deciding well ahead whether it needs a large ratio change therefore more downshifts going down the box or just a small one.Or whether just short shifting it on the up shifts will be sufficient or whether it needs to be run up to peak power on the up shifts.
On that note it would still be fair to say that autos are mostly about increasing the employers’ options regards driver ability.In which case who really wants to trust a driver to slow a truck down at the right time according to road conditions if/when there are doubts about the driver even being able to match road speeds with gear ratios to the point of minimising any clutch slip. 
If not that at best just to pander to the type of driver who really doesn’t want to be driving a manual truck anyway which is then obviously linked to the issue of people who prefer floating shifts than using the clutch all the time every time for example.
On that note it’s difficult to see how all that is good from the employers’ point of view. 
I got taken out for an assessment… Tractor was an automatic actros with twist on the right hand stalk.
Was shown how to drive all day using the “manual” aspect of this otherwise automatic vehicle, which made it a bit like driving a sports car I guess. Up and down on the stalk.
FFS this is starting to sound like a boys-only night out at the blue Oyster.
Anyways. I didn’t understand then and I still don’t understand now - WHY would anyone want to drive about all day using an automatic motor in “Manual” mode when they didn’t bloody well have to?
What next? - Someone finds a way of switching off the power steering, so we can all pretend to be driving Chieftans again with their 3 foot diameter steering wheels where you’ll have arms like Popeye within a week?! 
Juddian:
The problem being those drivers who can be bothered to make the effort to beat the computer, indeed anyone remotely interested, are desperately thin on the ground.
I’d guess that if that type of driver is in demand then they could arguably put pressure on the employers’ buying decision by just saying no thanks if you don’t trust me to drive a proper box then I’d rather look somewhere else.Which comes back to the question of choice.Especially bearing in mind if we actually get Brexit then there’s no reason why the option of a proper fuller can’t be put back on the table at least in the case of Volvo.
In which case if I was hypothetically an operator I don’t see the downside in speccing at least a certain proportion of a fleet as manual.In that I get the simplicity of an old school manual trans to offer a used buyer on re sale and by default the ‘right’ type of driver who wants to drive my truck. 
Winseer:
I got taken out for an assessment… Tractor was an automatic actros with twist on the right hand stalk.Was shown how to drive all day using the “manual” aspect of this otherwise automatic vehicle, which made it a bit like driving a sports car I guess. Up and down on the stalk.
FFS this is starting to sound like a boys-only night out at the blue Oyster.
Anyways. I didn’t understand then and I still don’t understand now - WHY would anyone want to drive about all day using an automatic motor in “Manual” mode when they didn’t bloody well have to?
What next? - Someone finds a way of switching off the power steering, so we can all pretend to be driving Chieftans again with their 3 foot diameter steering wheels where you’ll have arms like Popeye within a week?!
Ironically they obviously like the thing to be manually operated because the auto has too many flaws to the job as well as the driver can/should.
As for the analogy of the non power steering heap how does that possibly compare with something like a Fuller or even DAF 16 speed synchro for example and air assisted clutch.In which case the thing is easier to drive than the average manual car.
Carryfast:
Juddian:
The problem being those drivers who can be bothered to make the effort to beat the computer, indeed anyone remotely interested, are desperately thin on the ground.I’d guess that if that type of driver is in demand then they could arguably put pressure on the employers’ buying decision by just saying no thanks if you don’t trust me to drive a proper box then I’d rather look somewhere else.Which comes back to the question of choice.Especially bearing in mind if we actually get Brexit then there’s no reason why the option of a proper fuller can’t be put back on the table at least in the case of Volvo.
In which case if I was hypothetically an operator I don’t see the downside in speccing at least a large proportion of a fleet as manual.In that I get the simplicity of an old school manual trans to offer a used buyer on re sale and by default the ‘right’ type of driver who wants to drive my truck.
I tell you CF, the vast majority of transport managers (or whoever specs the fleet) isn’t usually interested in providing a properly specified vehicle to please the few drivers who still take a pride in the job, they want a vehicle that only needs D selecting and has lots of spying/reporting equipment on board so they can make impressive driver/vehicle performance spread sheets…remember those above the TM will know next to bugger all about lorries as such, they’ll order so many standard spec lorries and thats it, now where are we going for lunch/jolly Tarquin.
I don’t think old school lorry drivers as such are in demand at many places now, so standard parcel spec does it, plenty of licence holders out there and that in all honesty is all thats needed to select D and press the loud pedal, standard lorry standard pay.
I only know one driver recently, nice little proper haulage outfit, who was asked specifically what lorry he wanted before the boss bought it, his answer not bothered but want a manual box, sure enough he got a new top spec XF with a manual (and it was cheaper than the auto so boss chuffed) and is a happy bunny.
The problem with giving manuals to people that arn’t lorry drivers is the same as it always was, clutch abuse, gearbox abuse and engine abuse, to be fair now we’ve gone down the race to the bottom road they now need fleets of standard autos that any fool can steer along without wrecking the transmission, i can see no way back, Brexit won’t make a scrap of difference, there’s only a handful of us here on this forum that would prefer a manual, and when you think that by being on this forum means we have an interest in lorries, then it doesn’t bode well for the greater number of vocation drivers out there who for their own reasons want auto, they are in the majority and majority rules,
Its all over bar the shouting mate, we’re dinosaurs, and only tolerated where we work because we can do the job and always but always turn up to work, if they could get equally reliable steering wheel attendants cheaply they’d replace us in an instant.
Carryfast:
IE even the best driver combined with the best case scenario of modern locking converters won’t fix all the losses associated with the torque converter type trans.
As is your style, you keep yammering on about things that you know nothing about. Today’s topic that you’re the resident expert on is ‘modern locking converters’. ZF had lock-up torque converters in auto 'boxes in buses 30 years ago at least.
Winseer:
I got taken out for an assessment… Tractor was an automatic actros with twist on the right hand stalk.Was shown how to drive all day using the “manual” aspect of this otherwise automatic vehicle, which made it a bit like driving a sports car I guess. Up and down on the stalk.
FFS this is starting to sound like a boys-only night out at the blue Oyster.
Anyways. I didn’t understand then and I still don’t understand now - WHY would anyone want to drive about all day using an automatic motor in “Manual” mode when they didn’t bloody well have to?
What next? - Someone finds a way of switching off the power steering, so we can all pretend to be driving Chieftans again with their 3 foot diameter steering wheels where you’ll have arms like Popeye within a week?!
I have Arsetronic box in my allocated lorry, its pants, on a par with Mercs effort i suppose.
Loaded especially i use manual all the time, many reasons for this, bloody mindedness the main one, smoother more productive progress, more appropriate gear, holding gears instead of not needed hunting up and down the box keeping revs between 1000 and 1500 in an MAN, better economy (yes i do care and i get better fuel figures than the sister lorries only driven in auto, no points nothing said no pats on the head, for my benefit only), better control of maximum exhaust braking (far as i’m concerned the exhauster is the main lorry brake, the footbrake is only for coming to final rest and emergencies), and last but not least because i still take a stubborn pride in me work despite the best efforts to dumb the job down to monkey level.
Juddian:
Winseer:
I got taken out for an assessment… Tractor was an automatic actros with twist on the right hand stalk.Was shown how to drive all day using the “manual” aspect of this otherwise automatic vehicle, which made it a bit like driving a sports car I guess. Up and down on the stalk.
FFS this is starting to sound like a boys-only night out at the blue Oyster.
Anyways. I didn’t understand then and I still don’t understand now - WHY would anyone want to drive about all day using an automatic motor in “Manual” mode when they didn’t bloody well have to?
What next? - Someone finds a way of switching off the power steering, so we can all pretend to be driving Chieftans again with their 3 foot diameter steering wheels where you’ll have arms like Popeye within a week?!
I have Arsetronic box in my allocated lorry, its pants, on a par with Mercs effort i suppose.
Loaded especially i use manual all the time, many reasons for this, bloody mindedness the main one, smoother more productive progress, more appropriate gear, holding gears instead of not needed hunting up and down the box keeping revs between 1000 and 1500 in an MAN, better economy (yes i do care and i get better fuel figures than the sister lorries only driven in auto, no points nothing said no pats on the head, for my benefit only), better control of maximum exhaust braking (far as i’m concerned the exhauster is the main lorry brake, the footbrake is only for coming to final rest and emergencies), and last but not least because i still take a stubborn pride in me work despite the best efforts to dumb the job down to monkey level.
Sorry if I depress you even more Juddian but there is a fleet spec AS-tronic that some supermarkets use that is specced with the manual mode removed …so a step closer to the bottom of the barrell
Juddian:
I don’t think old school lorry drivers as such are in demand at many places now, so standard parcel spec does it, plenty of licence holders out there and that in all honesty is all thats needed to select D and press the loud pedal, standard lorry standard pay.
As I said why would they expect a driver,who they can’t trust to match the correct gear with the correct road speed for the conditions ahead for example,to be any better when that driver has to match just road speed with the conditions ahead,regardless of not having to bother about which gear it’s in.
norb:
Juddian:
Winseer:
Sorry if I depress you even more Juddian but there is a fleet spec AS-tronic that some supermarkets use that is specced with the manual mode removed …so a step closer to the bottom of the barrell
Don’t remind me Norb, i had to use a bloody 65 plate euro 6 CF with the excellent (er no it isn’t) 440 lump recently for a couple of days @ 44ton, oh joy , forgetting the annoying lane departure ■■■■■■■■ telling me off constantly whilst on a B road, the box does allow standard A and M selection but defaults back to A eco after about 30 seconds.
Can i pick your brain for a minute please.
My MAN’s due for renewal in due course and i’m bloody dreading its going to be a DAF…so i have a question for you mate, is there any way of locking it in M like our older euro 6 Daf does, or is it down to you lads via programming or is it set permanently to resume default ecoA at the factory?
In all honesty much as i like me job and its a bloody good one too, i’d have to think very hard about whether to stay or leave if i got one of these new DAFs, the most horrible frustrating lorry i’ve ever driven and by Christ there’s been some ropey buggers, yet previously i had a CF 460 16 speed manual which was a cracking tool and i was very sorry to see it go, went like hell good on fuel and a pleasure to use, how can so good go so wrong.
Juddian:
norb:
Juddian:
Winseer:
Sorry if I depress you even more Juddian but there is a fleet spec AS-tronic that some supermarkets use that is specced with the manual mode removed …so a step closer to the bottom of the barrell
Don’t remind me Norb, i had to use a bloody 65 plate euro 6 CF with the excellent (er no it isn’t) 440 lump recently for a couple of days @ 44ton, oh joy
Can i pick your brain for a minute please.
My MAN’s due for renewal in due course and i’m bloody dreading its going to be a DAF…so i have a question for you mate, is there any way of locking it in M like our older euro 6 Daf does, or is it down to you lads via programming or is it set permanently to resume default ecoA at the factory?In all honesty much as i like me job and its a bloody good one too, i’d have to think very hard about whether to stay or leave if i got one of these new DAFs, the most horrible frustrating lorry i’ve ever driven and by Christ there’s been some ropey buggers, yet previously i had a CF 460 16 speed manual which was a cracking tool and i was very sorry to see it go, went like hell good on fuel and a pleasure to use, how can so good go so wrong.
I don’t mind what people say about DAF ,my view was different to yours ,I looked at a truck on how mechanic friendly they where…And until euro6 they where good for a mechanic ,no issues doing clutches ,didn’t have to support the engine etc …I do find out info about the on here that I never knew about ,as DAF introduce things and don’t bother telling us …I was out in a 16 plate yesterday on a road test ad was explaining how all the lane departure AEBS etc worked and the manual worked as it should ,if they have changed it I honestly don’t know ,though I will endever to find out ,ill call and ask technical lol…We have never had any control over how the as tronic works ,we can up date the software but can not alter anything …The only way that could possibly happen is if DAF send us software to upload
What you say about the manual is what a lot of customers comment on…DAF seemed to have got the installation right on that,but didn’t you have issues with 3rd and 4th synchros being chocolate ,I used to do a box a week
The reason good goes wrong is brussels …I was more thn happy at euro 3 ,euro 5 was fine was up to speed on that but euro 6 is a nightmare ,we get driver waiting jobs and nothing is 5 minutes
Sorry not the answer you where hoping for
Mean swich the lane departure warning and aebs off if you wish
I have driven manual Volvos for years and have recentley been upgraded to one with the I shift, feels a little soulless as your just steering the thing like a big go kart but apart from that it drives well.
Still like the manual trucks but any technology which makes my job easier in later life is good for me. Except for the silly traction control which I turn off when off road, can’t see any point of it on a truck really.
Carryfast please tell me the difference it makes between floating a shift and using the clutch, if the change is made with a perfect meshing of the gears in either case?
Sent from my SM-T805W using Tapatalk
Norb,
thanks for those replies, yes the lane departure thingy i know i can switch off but to be quite honest the switchgear is so hapazardly laid out that by the time i was on the B road and the bloody thing buzzing its arse off it was too dicey for me to try to find the bloody correct switch, i only drive the things once in a blue moon at the moment and fingers crossed thats how it stays, unfortunately the drivers who have them issued are regular long term sick notes so these tractors are the ones available when i need another one 
, fingers crossed i don’t get a permanent issue of one.
Yes there was trouble with synchros on the manuals but as with most problems you lads have to fix it was poor driving IMHO…again full circle as to why we now have autos
Ah, so even you lads can’t modify the Arsetronic mode settings, at least for the moment, thats definately not the answer i was hoping for but many thanks for taking the time to answer, it does however give me something else to think about that should i end up with one what my choice to stay or go will be (i had hoped this constant defaulting back to ecoA could be overridden by the dealer workshops), won’t be quite so bad if they spec the engine up to a 460, but with these small engines and a box you can’t control (won’t stay in M) frustrating doesn’t even begin to cover it when you’re always at 43 tons plus when loaded and have a good days work to cover.
There comes a point if the job has been dumbed down to idiot level enough and that final straw breaks that its no longer possible to take any pride such as lorry driving pleasure in your work, with some of the latest lorries we’re reaching that point rapidly.
Again, thanks for taking the time to answer my pleas for some hope of regaining a little sanity… 
newmercman:
Carryfast please tell me the difference it makes between floating a shift and using the clutch, if the change is made with a perfect meshing of the gears in either case?
If I’ve got it right one of the the main advantages of I shift v manual is that the machine can do consistently ‘perfectly’ matched shifts better than a driver can ?.When the fairer comparison would be only clutched manual shifts v I shift in that regard.In which case as I said the argument then turns into the one of drivers who’d rather be driving an auto than use a clutch because they are too bleedin lazy to use their left leg even given air assistance. ( Maybe understandable in something mostly used in a urban/frequent stop start environment in which case then the torque converter type auto is arguably superior anyway ).
Bearing in mind that we’ve already established that Fuller’s own driving manual instruction is that floated shifts should be avoided and only clutched and if not the skill of double de clutched shifts would obviously have never been needed.
So that’s two paragraphs and still no answer to my question which you quoted!
So again, what difference does it make?
I ask this because I’ve done over 3/4 million miles in a lorry with a Fuller and had no problems with it at all. My current one has barely any wear on it since I bought it and I’m moving up to 63tons off the line with that.
In both instances and every other lorry I’ve driven in the past 30yrs there have been no gearbox related issues apart from a range change on a 143 I owned and an oil cooler on the Peterbilt.
So I’m a little perplexed as to why I need to double de clutch to do it ‘properly’
newmercman:
So that’s two paragraphs and still no answer to my question which you quoted!So again, what difference does it make?
I ask this because I’ve done over 3/4 million miles in a lorry with a Fuller and had no problems with it at all. My current one has barely any wear on it since I bought it and I’m moving up to 63tons off the line with that.
In both instances and every other lorry I’ve driven in the past 30yrs there have been no gearbox related issues apart from a range change on a 143 I owned and an oil cooler on the Peterbilt.
So I’m a little perplexed as to why I need to double de clutch to do it ‘properly’
Likewise I’m perplexed as to how you can make the case that an I shift can generally do it any better going by your own information and as I said especially when we compare apples of double de clutched manual shifts ( which obviously reduces the less than ‘perfect’ variables of bad days etc ) with apples in the case of I shift. 
Which leaves the obvious question why does fullers own manual call for the avoidance of floated shifts ?.