Banquo:
I have been class 1 for over 25 years, have an excellent safety record and not one endorsement of which i am proud. I keep up my knowledge of legislation by reading the truck magazines and web sites. My driving skills come from pure experience and nothing else-trucks today are so much easier to drive, more comfortable and require less hands on maintenance that in the past.
I have done 21 hours cpc and absolutely nothing , i will say again absolutely nothing i have heard has changed one iota the way i drive or improved my knowledge.
Apart from losing 3 days work i discovered that the trainer had never even set foot in a truck!!- Just how patronising is that for someone who was driving double clutch and crash boxes before this trainer was born.
At the very least if we are going to have to suffer this, at least each trainer should be experienced in what he/SHE is talking about
I have been delivering DCPC training since September 2009. I couldn’t deliver before then because it didn’t exist. i was however delivering training before then. And yes i have driven a variety of vehicles and loads, as well as load them, fix them and also holding an operators CPC.
So lets say for ease i have met and delivered training to 500+ drivers and lets just stick to basic drivers hours rules. I would estimate that probably about 20% of these drivers actually knew all the rules they should know. Possibly less. the rest knew some of the rules, and some rules that don’t even exist.
I can only comment on my experiences and my experiences show that a very high percentage of drivers I have met have needed and appreciated the training.
Today i got a call from an owner operator who has been in the job 20+ years. “I’m stuck there’s been an accident and my 4 1/2 hours drive is almost up. What do i do?” He went on to explain he had been sitting in the cab for 4 1/2 hours - but hadn’t moved for the last 50 minutes and was now panicking about getting his break. he had no idea that legally - he had just had his break sitting in the jam.
20+ years in the job and clearly doesn’t know what he should know.
The training is needed in one way or another and at least the DCPC has started something that will benefit a large amount of people in the industry
Sorry mate, I don’t buy that one. I just don’t.
That sounds to me like a classic trainer’s cakey-bar story.
I honestly can’t see anything wrong in compulsory periodic training. The DCPC format is wrong in my opinion but a petition will not do anything. It’s been said on here before, imagine the headlines. ‘HGV DRIVERS CAMPAIGN AGAINST TRAINING’. Over the next few years the system will probably change but deep down you don’t want that, I don’t think you like being told what to do. I’ve done four out of five modules and found them quite interesting, bit boring but I did learn.
Happydaze:
Sorry mate, I don’t buy that one. I just don’t.
That sounds to me like a classic trainer’s cakey-bar story.
The only reason you don’t buy it is because I’m a trainer. But the driver aint gonna come on here and 'fes up is he? i got plenty more where that came from.
I probably meet around 20 to 30 drivers most weeks and I form my opinions based on what I see and hear. More don’t know the basic rules than do. Just spend a few hours going through threads on here … there’s far more clearly don’t actually know the rules than do know them. I am amazed at the questions that get asked.
The DCPC needs a bit of sorting. 7 hour sessions are too long. being able to repeat a course straight away is silly. making it the drivers responsibility was plain stupid. There are some poor trainers - but these are slowly being audited and closed down or made to improve. its a start. But lets face it - whatever they brought in, however they worded it - the same people would be on here crying about how bad it is.
Simple really - don’t want to do it? Change your profession.
shep532:
Today i got a call from an owner operator who has been in the job 20+ years. “I’m stuck there’s been an accident and my 4 1/2 hours drive is almost up. What do i do?” He went on to explain he had been sitting in the cab for 4 1/2 hours - but hadn’t moved for the last 50 minutes and was now panicking about getting his break. he had no idea that legally - he had just had his break sitting in the jam.
Not unless he’d put his tachograph onto break he hadn’t
shep532:
Today i got a call from an owner operator who has been in the job 20+ years. “I’m stuck there’s been an accident and my 4 1/2 hours drive is almost up. What do i do?” He went on to explain he had been sitting in the cab for 4 1/2 hours - but hadn’t moved for the last 50 minutes and was now panicking about getting his break. he had no idea that legally - he had just had his break sitting in the jam.
Not unless he’d put his tachograph onto break he hadn’t
Being a highly skilled and extremely experienced driver he always drives with his analogue tacho “On break so I don’t forget”
I’ve seen his charts - he has one of those special shifts where all he ever does is drive - break - drive - break. Lucky git eh?
Wheel Nut:
no licences can be revoked if you do not take the DCPC
Agreed - your licence remains in place, but you are not entitled to make commercial use of LGV or PCVÂ entitlement without valid DCPC. Those who took first gained LGVÂ entitlement after September 2009 and/or first gained PCVÂ entitlement after September 2008 cannot use their entitlement to drive commercially without taking the relevant module 2 and module 4 tests.
Wheel Nut:
neither can insurers refuse to cover non holders of the card
I wouldn’t be so sure of that. Insurers can impose any condition they like that falls within what is allowable in contract law. There are relatively few things that are unfair and therefore unenforceable in contracts between two businesses (i.e. an insurance company and a business operating LGVs commercially).
There’s probably legal restrictions precluding the withdrawal of third party cover when a driver doesn’t have driver CPC, but the law is unlikely to interfere in restrictions on cover beyond the legal minimum. If a driver destroys a vehicle, a load and a bridge, then the boss finds out he only has third party cover, neither the driver nor the person who should have checked the driver’s DCPC status would be popular!
I know. But the only thing any driver needs to be legal on a public road is third party cover.
Is an empty trailer and unit operating commercially. A fully loaded race transporter or horse box isn’t. If the CPC is about safety, how do you explain that Tiffany & Felicity can borrow papas lorry to take Flossie to the gymkhana.
malcolmj:
15h aday every day so long as they take a 11 hours off is mind boggling
Something that is very common is that a driver will take 11 hours off at night and think he has not taken a reduced rest, when in fact he has because he worked for longer than 13 hours during that day. But a lot of these mistakes could be eliminated by simplifying the law.
H - could you please explain to me what you mean by this, as I really dont understand what you are saying?
I have been delivering DCPC training since September 2009. I couldn’t deliver before then because it didn’t exist. i was however delivering training before then. And yes i have driven a variety of vehicles and loads, as well as load them, fix them and also holding an operators CPC.
So lets say for ease i have met and delivered training to 500+ drivers and lets just stick to basic drivers hours rules. I would estimate that probably about 20% of these drivers actually knew all the rules they should know. Possibly less. the rest knew some of the rules, and some rules that don’t even exist.
I can only comment on my experiences and my experiences show that a very high percentage of drivers I have met have needed and appreciated the training.
Today i got a call from an owner operator who has been in the job 20+ years. “I’m stuck there’s been an accident and my 4 1/2 hours drive is almost up. What do i do?” He went on to explain he had been sitting in the cab for 4 1/2 hours - but hadn’t moved for the last 50 minutes and was now panicking about getting his break. he had no idea that legally - he had just had his break sitting in the jam.
20+ years in the job and clearly doesn’t know what he should know.
The training is needed in one way or another and at least the DCPC has started something that will benefit a large amount of people in the industry
I have to agree with this part of the quote “training is needed in one way or another”
Drivers should know the legislation to which they have to abide by, its their bread and butter. Trainers also should know the legislation (even better) to teach it properly.
When your delayed due to a accident or other incident and you have to remain behind that steering wheel in the drivers seat and you exceed your driving hours - YOU ARE NOT ON A BREAK ! Legislation allows for unforeseen events - just endorse the back of your tacho why you exceeded your driving time. But stop for a break ASAP when it is safe to do so safely.
Im shaking my head here 500+ Drivers taught wrongly + a driver with 20+ years driving that should know better.
Tony, your petition started this thread, but you really do need to check some things out before posting them.
When your delayed due to a accident or other incident and you have to remain behind that steering wheel in the drivers seat and you exceed your driving hours - YOU ARE NOT ON A BREAK ! Legislation allows for unforeseen circumstances - just endorse the back of your tacho why you exceeded your driving time. But stop for a break ASAP when it is safe to do so safely.
You can have a break in any position you want, from laid across the transport managers desk to remaining in the driving seat. This scenario has been used before and as long as the transport manager isn’t using your arse to store his pen you are not working.
You can take a break on a motorway if the air ambulance lands or the road surface is damaged and the road closed.
The link you posted is from Northern Ireland although it does use the same wording
I am just getting confused by whom you want to be taught - most of you say that you can’t be taught anything about driving in the classroom - so why does it then matter if the instructor is “a driver” or not.
In the main the CPC is being used to pass on rules and regulations and I for one would rather be taught by a non-driver that knows the rules inside out and back to front than some bloke who last was on the road when god’s dog was a pup and pretends that they know whats going on.
The truck industry is moving on at a pace and if you aint been driving everyday you are soon out of touch with whats going on in the real world.
And worst than all of this is the trainers who are so far up there own backsides you just want to smack them one in their smug faces.
I was listening to one about sliding 5th wheels - bloody hell he was telling the boys that they can move the 5th wheel to suit - yes this may be true but he failed to mention the length of the vehicle may need checking before they drive off.
Jenson Button:
I was listening to one about sliding 5th wheels - bloody hell he was telling the boys that they can move the 5th wheel to suit - yes this may be true but he failed to mention the length of the vehicle may need checking before they drive off.
Not only that, it may be a good idea to check the position before coupling up if you’ve got a sliding fifth wheel. Consider the scenario of having slid the fifth wheel forward, then the next trailer you couple to is a fridge.
Wheel Nut:
Tony, your petition started this thread, but you really do need to check some things out before posting them.
When your delayed due to a accident or other incident and you have to remain behind that steering wheel in the drivers seat and you exceed your driving hours - YOU ARE NOT ON A BREAK ! Legislation allows for unforeseen circumstances - just endorse the back of your tacho why you exceeded your driving time. But stop for a break ASAP when it is safe to do so safely.
You can have a break in any position you want, from laid across the transport managers desk to remaining in the driving seat. This scenario has been used before and as long as the transport manager isn’t using your arse to store his pen you are not working.
You can take a break on a motorway if the air ambulance lands or the road surface is damaged and the road closed.
The link you posted is from Northern Ireland although it does use the same wording
The wording says
“A rest is an uninterrupted period where a driver may freely dispose of his time.”
It is a grey area which the courts would ask, is a driver resting where he can freely dispose of his time ? If you are still positioned on a road in a traffic jam, that could move at any time due to unforeseen events and not in a safe parking location,you are not able to freely dispose of your time (you have to remain with your vehicle, therefore, you are still classed as driving, as you may be required to move the vehicle (Emergency Services trying to get to the incident etc). Unless of course the emergency services have informed you that the road will be closed for x amount of time and you wont be moved, then you may be able to switch it to rest mode.
The whole lot needs simplifying so that its easy for everyone to understand.
Jenson Button:
I was listening to one about sliding 5th wheels - bloody hell he was telling the boys that they can move the 5th wheel to suit - yes this may be true but he failed to mention the length of the vehicle may need checking before they drive off.
Not only that, it may be a good idea to check the position before coupling up if you’ve got a sliding fifth wheel. Consider the scenario of having slid the fifth wheel forward, then the next trailer you couple to is a fridge.
Even more important to check the rear lights clear the landing legs
Wheel Nut:
Tony, your petition started this thread, but you really do need to check some things out before posting them.
When your delayed due to a accident or other incident and you have to remain behind that steering wheel in the drivers seat and you exceed your driving hours - YOU ARE NOT ON A BREAK ! Legislation allows for unforeseen circumstances - just endorse the back of your tacho why you exceeded your driving time. But stop for a break ASAP when it is safe to do so safely.
You can have a break in any position you want, from laid across the transport managers desk to remaining in the driving seat. This scenario has been used before and as long as the transport manager isn’t using your arse to store his pen you are not working.
You can take a break on a motorway if the air ambulance lands or the road surface is damaged and the road closed.
The link you posted is from Northern Ireland although it does use the same wording
The wording says
“A rest is an uninterrupted period where a driver may freely dispose of his time.”
It is a grey area which the courts would ask, is a driver resting where he can freely dispose of his time ? If you are still positioned on a road in a traffic jam, that could move at any time due to unforeseen events and not in a safe parking location,you are not able to freely dispose of your time (you have to remain with your vehicle, therefore, you are still classed as driving, as you may be required to move the vehicle (Emergency Services trying to get to the incident etc). Unless of course the emergency services have informed you that the road will be closed for x amount of time and you wont be moved, then you may be able to switch it to rest mode.
The whole lot needs simplifying so that its easy for everyone to understand.
It’s not a grey area at-all, you’re confusing break with rest but they’re two completely different things, the only stipulation for a break is that you should be able to use the time for recuperation which you can do whilst sat in a traffic jam waiting for the road to clear, you do not have to be able to dispose of the time freely as you do when on rest.
You don’t need to know how long you will be waiting for either a break or a rest as you seem to be suggesting, and merely being at the controls of a vehicle is not driving as far as the EU regulations are concerned, though it is driving when on domestic rules.
I’m against the DCPC in it’s current form but I have to say that you seem to be putting up a good case for it’s existence when you clearly haven’t bothered to even learn the basics
djw:
Not only that, it may be a good idea to check the position before coupling up if you’ve got a sliding fifth wheel. Consider the scenario of having slid the fifth wheel forward, then the next trailer you couple to is a fridge.
Even more important to check the rear lights clear the landing legs
Both scenarios go ‘crunch’ in a nasty and expensive way - fridge unit into back of cab and landing legs into unit rear lights and mudguards (sorry, “spray suppression”). If you get it right, you can probably crunch both lots in one go - though IÂ guess there’s style points for legs v lights if you get it close enough to make contact only when unit and trailer are no longer aligned. That way, you can get the ‘crunch’ to happen as you turn out of the yard.
IÂ wonder how many units with sliding fifth wheels have them slid. I suspect many sliding fifth wheels are left in one position for long periods - even permanently.
Wheel Nut:
Tony, your petition started this thread, but you really do need to check some things out before posting them.
When your delayed due to a accident or other incident and you have to remain behind that steering wheel in the drivers seat and you exceed your driving hours - YOU ARE NOT ON A BREAK ! Legislation allows for unforeseen circumstances - just endorse the back of your tacho why you exceeded your driving time. But stop for a break ASAP when it is safe to do so safely.
You can have a break in any position you want, from laid across the transport managers desk to remaining in the driving seat. This scenario has been used before and as long as the transport manager isn’t using your arse to store his pen you are not working.
You can take a break on a motorway if the air ambulance lands or the road surface is damaged and the road closed.
The link you posted is from Northern Ireland although it does use the same wording
The wording says
“A rest is an uninterrupted period where a driver may freely dispose of his time.”
It is a grey area which the courts would ask, is a driver resting where he can freely dispose of his time ? If you are still positioned on a road in a traffic jam, that could move at any time due to unforeseen events and not in a safe parking location,you are not able to freely dispose of your time (you have to remain with your vehicle, therefore, you are still classed as driving, as you may be required to move the vehicle (Emergency Services trying to get to the incident etc). Unless of course the emergency services have informed you that the road will be closed for x amount of time and you wont be moved, then you may be able to switch it to rest mode.
The whole lot needs simplifying so that its easy for everyone to understand.
I am afraid your post is a classic example of why DCPC is needed.
I did not mention the word REST. The driver was not enquiring about REST. I talked about BREAK.
You complete post is wrong in just about every aspect.
BREAK and REST are completely different activities.
A BREAK CAN be interrupted and the driver does not have to be free to dispose of his time
DRIVING is the activity recorded on the tachograph as driving. if the vehicle is stationary it isn’t recording driving - so no matter where you are sitting or what vehicle you are in charge of - it isn’t driving. The rules defining driving do not have a sentance with the words unless you have to remain with your vehicle.
There isn’t a single GREY area here. it is written in black on white paper.
It was more a case of 500+ drivers missinformed by other drivers and now put right by a trainer that knows more than the basic rules.
Unfortunately the posts I see on here and most certainly including this one by you means I am more than shaking my head - I am rolling round the floor laughing.
and no the link didn’t really help …
May I suggest you attend a decent DCPC course? I’ll even offer a course for free if it helps.
Hands up !!! Im incorrect on a couple of posts I have made regarding Breaks/Rest (my apologies Shep (I withdraw my statement about Training 500+) I myself have proved a point that my knowledge should be better and my understanding of the definition of a break and rest was wrong. I have made a case for further training and as such destroyed the very basis to abolish/scrap the cpc, due to my not quoting Tacho regs correctly. I therefore cannot ask for support for the e-petition submitted in my name, when I have openly on a forum discredited myself. My apologies to everyone that signed it, but I cannot be the named proposer of this e-petition due to my own ignorance/mistake. Therefore I will request the e-petition to be removed, as I am the proposer.
