Abolish/Scrap the CPC Legislation

[tony4562]

I am some what surprised why (just to pluck one from the list, if it is correct) Auto-Cycle Union acu.org.uk/About-Us.aspx were consulted when it is a governing body for motorcycle sport. (Not even representing motorcyclists who use the road.) I cant understand how Auto-Cycle Union as an organisation should have any input that affects the HGV/PSV Industry.

It is for these very reasons why this legislation is flawed.

Wheel Nut:
I also believe the horse already bolted in 2007 when the consultation document was sent out to the following bodies. Someone has agreed to it. The full list of questions and answers from the consultants replies are also available!

A number of City and County Councils
A number of Police Forces
A number of Fire Services
Aberdeen & District Driving Schools
Assoc.
Aberdeenshire Council
ABL (Holding) Ltd
ACE
Active Risk Management
ADI Federation
ADI Training Services
Admiral Insurance
Admiral Training Ltd
Adventure Activities Industry Advisory
Committee
AEA Technology PLC
Aeon Risk Services
AGBIS
All Party Parliamentary Group
Allerton Road Safety Education Ltd
Allianz Cornhill plc
Allied Driver Training Centre
Ambulance Services Association
Anglesey County Council
Anglia Industrial Training Ltd
Angus Council
A-Plant
Argyll and Bute Council
Arriva London South Ltd
Arriva Southern Counties
ASDA Stores Ltd
Association of British Drivers
Association of British Insurers
Association of Chief Police Officers
Association of Chief Police Officers Scotland
Association of Colleges
Association of Driving Instructors of West London
Association of Heads of Outdoor
Education Centres
British Chamber of Commerce
British Epilepsy Association
British Fire Service Association
British Horse Society
British Independent Motor Trade Association
British Industrial Truck Association
British School of Motoring Ltd
British Telecom
British Transport Police
British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association
Business Link Nottinghamshire
Cabinet Office
Centre for Economic and Social Inclusion
Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport (UK)
Chartered Institute of Transport
Cheshire County Council
Chief and Assistant Chief Fire Officers Association
Child Accident Prevention Trust
City and Guilds Institute
Civil Service Motoring Association
Coach Operators Federation
Commercial Motor
Commission for Racial Equality (England,
Scotland and Wales)
Community Transport Association
Countryside Agency
Confederation of British Industry
(including Scotland and Wales)
Confederation of Passenger Transport
Consortium of LEAs Provision of Science Services
Convention of Scottish Local Authorities
Conwy County Council
Co-operative Food and General
Distribution Ltd
Cranfield University
Daimler Chrysler UK Ltd
Association of Industrial Road Safety Officers
Association of London Government
Association of Magisterial Officers
Association of Professional Driving Instructors (S.W.)
Association of Road Transport Lawyers
Association of Scottish Police Superintendents
Association of South Eastern Driving Instructors
Association of Transport Co-ordinating Officers
Association of United Driving Instructors
ATC
ATL
Auto-Cycle Union
Automobile Association
Automotive Distribution Federation
AVRO Ltd
AXA Insurance UK Plc
Barnsley Met BC
Blackpool Transport
Boots Company PLC
BP Amoco PLC
Brake
British Association of Removers
Ferguson’s Transport
First Manchester
First Bristol Bus
Foden Trucks
Ford Motor Co Ltd
Forum of Private Business
Forum of Private Business in Scotland
Freight Transport Association
Get Trucking
GoSkills
Government of Gibraltar
Health and Safety Executive
Heavy Transport Association
Historic Commercial Vehicle Society
Home Office
House of Commons Library
IAM Motoring Trust
Institute of Directors
Institute of Road Safety Officers
Isle of Man Government
Iveco Ford Truck Ltd
Ifor Williams Trailers Ltd
Dairy Industry Federation
Defence Logistics Organisation
Defence School of Transport
Department for Constitutional Affairs
Dept of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Dept of Environment Northern Ireland
Dept of Health
Department of Health
Dept of Trade and Industry
Dept of Transport — Mobility and Inclusion Unit
Road safety and Vehicle Standards Division
Despatch Association
DfES Pupil Safety & School Security
Disabled Driver s Association
Disabled Persons Transport Advisory
Committee
Driving Instructors Association
Driver Vehicle and Licensing Agency
Driver and Vehicle Testing Agency
Eddie Stobart Ltd
Environmental Transport Association
EXEL
Farmers Union of England
Farmers Union of Scotland
Farmers Union of Wales
Federation of Public Passenger
Transport Employers
Federation of Small Businesses
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
Office of the Traffic Commissioner
Oxford Cambridge and RSA Examinations
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
Office of the Traffic Commissioner
Oxford Cambridge and RSA Examinations Parliamentary Advisory Council on Transport Safety
P&O Ferrymasters Ltd
PCM LGV Driver Training
Police Federation of England and Wales
Public and Commercial Services Union
Public Carriage Office
Qualifications and Curriculum Authority
Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment
RAC (motoring services)
J Coates (HGV Services Ltd)
Joint Committee on Mobility for the Disabled
Justice Clerks Society
Judith Hearn Agency Ltd
LDV Ltd
Learn and Live
Lex Vehicle Leasing
Leyland Trucks Ltd
LGV Ltd
Local Authority Road Safety Officers Association
Local Government Association
Logistical Support Services
London United Busways Ltd
Lothian Buses Plc
Magistrates’ Association
MAN ERF Ltd
MAN ERF UK Ltd
Mercedes Benz UK Ltd
Mersey Travel
Metropolitan Police
Military Vehicle Trust
Minimise Your Risk
Ministry Of Defence
Mobility Advice and Vehicle Information Services
Motability
Motor Schools Association of GB Ltd
National Assembly of Wales
National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux
National Association of Local Councils
National Council on Inland Transport
National Council on Voluntary Organisations
National Express Group PLC
National Farmers Union
National Federation of Self Employed & Small Businesses
National Federation of Bus Users
National Freight Consortium PLC
National Farmers Union (Scotland)
National Private Hire Association
National Union of Rail ,Maritime and
Transport Workers
National Union of Road Transport
Operators National
National Union of Teachers
RAC Motoring Services
RAC Foundation
Authority for Wales
Recruitment and Employment
Confederation
Red Rose Training (BOLTON) Ltd
Renault Business Links
Renault Trucks UK Ltd
Ritchie’s Training Centre
Road Haulage Association
Road Operators Safety Council
Roadpeace
Royal Mail Southeast
RTITB Ltd
Royal Association for Disability and
Rehabilitation
Scania Great Britain Ltd
Scottish Qualifications Authority
Scottish Executive
Skills for Logistics
Small Business Service
Social Exclusion Unit
Stagecoach
States of Jersey Driver and Vehicle
Standards
Steel Horse Transport Services
Steve Robertson Transport
TNT UK Ltd
Tangerine Training Solutions
Trades Union Congress
Transport and General Workers Union
Unison
Volvo Truck and Bus
VOSA
VT plc (Vosper Thorneycroft)
Wallace School of Transport
Welsh Assembly
Wincanton
Wm Morrison Plc
Women’s National Commission
Yellow Buses
Zurich Insurance
958 Trainers on the DSA Voluntary
Register of LGV Trainers
266 Delegated Examiners
150 Road Safety Officers
87 Government Departments and Agencies
39 Theory Test Translators

[wheel_nut]

Tony4562:
I am some what surprised why (just to pluck one from the list, if it is correct) Auto-Cycle Union acu.org.uk/About-Us.aspx were consulted when it is a governing body for motorcycle sport. (Not even representing motorcyclists who use the road.) I cant understand how Auto-Cycle Union as an organisation should have any input that affects the HGV/PSV Industry.

It is for these very reasons why this legislation is flawed.

I have to agree with that, especially as a new ACU steward, they do have one 7.5 tonner for shows and exhibitions but certainly have no interest in lorries or road haulage

[truckerjon]

Wheel Nut:
Tony. My “going straight in the bin” message was for this forum and for me. I simply would not sign a petition that had crucial errors.

I also believe the horse already bolted in 2007 when the consultation document was sent out to the following bodies. Someone has agreed to it. The full list of questions and answers from the consultants replies are also available!

A number of City and County Councils
A number of Police Forces
A number of Fire Services
Aberdeen & District Driving Schools
Assoc.
Aberdeenshire Council
ABL (Holding) Ltd
ACE
Active Risk Management
ADI Federation
ADI Training Services
Admiral Insurance
Admiral Training Ltd
Adventure Activities Industry Advisory
Committee
AEA Technology PLC
Aeon Risk Services
AGBIS
All Party Parliamentary Group
Allerton Road Safety Education Ltd
Allianz Cornhill plc
Allied Driver Training Centre
Ambulance Services Association
Anglesey County Council
Anglia Industrial Training Ltd
Angus Council
A-Plant
Argyll and Bute Council
Arriva London South Ltd
Arriva Southern Counties
ASDA Stores Ltd
Association of British Drivers
Association of British Insurers
Association of Chief Police Officers
Association of Chief Police Officers Scotland
Association of Colleges
Association of Driving Instructors of West London
Association of Heads of Outdoor
Education Centres
British Chamber of Commerce
British Epilepsy Association
British Fire Service Association
British Horse Society
British Independent Motor Trade Association
British Industrial Truck Association
British School of Motoring Ltd
British Telecom
British Transport Police
British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association
Business Link Nottinghamshire
Cabinet Office
Centre for Economic and Social Inclusion
Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport (UK)
Chartered Institute of Transport
Cheshire County Council
Chief and Assistant Chief Fire Officers Association
Child Accident Prevention Trust
City and Guilds Institute
Civil Service Motoring Association
Coach Operators Federation
Commercial Motor
Commission for Racial Equality (England,
Scotland and Wales)
Community Transport Association
Countryside Agency
Confederation of British Industry
(including Scotland and Wales)
Confederation of Passenger Transport
Consortium of LEAs Provision of Science Services
Convention of Scottish Local Authorities
Conwy County Council
Co-operative Food and General
Distribution Ltd
Cranfield University
Daimler Chrysler UK Ltd
Association of Industrial Road Safety Officers
Association of London Government
Association of Magisterial Officers
Association of Professional Driving Instructors (S.W.)
Association of Road Transport Lawyers
Association of Scottish Police Superintendents
Association of South Eastern Driving Instructors
Association of Transport Co-ordinating Officers
Association of United Driving Instructors
ATC
ATL
Auto-Cycle Union
Automobile Association
Automotive Distribution Federation
AVRO Ltd
AXA Insurance UK Plc
Barnsley Met BC
Blackpool Transport
Boots Company PLC
BP Amoco PLC
Brake
British Association of Removers
Ferguson’s Transport
First Manchester
First Bristol Bus
Foden Trucks
Ford Motor Co Ltd
Forum of Private Business
Forum of Private Business in Scotland
Freight Transport Association
Get Trucking
GoSkills
Government of Gibraltar
Health and Safety Executive
Heavy Transport Association
Historic Commercial Vehicle Society
Home Office
House of Commons Library
IAM Motoring Trust
Institute of Directors
Institute of Road Safety Officers
Isle of Man Government
Iveco Ford Truck Ltd
Ifor Williams Trailers Ltd
Dairy Industry Federation
Defence Logistics Organisation
Defence School of Transport
Department for Constitutional Affairs
Dept of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs
Dept of Environment Northern Ireland
Dept of Health
Department of Health
Dept of Trade and Industry
Dept of Transport — Mobility and Inclusion Unit
Road safety and Vehicle Standards Division
Despatch Association
DfES Pupil Safety & School Security
Disabled Driver s Association
Disabled Persons Transport Advisory
Committee
Driving Instructors Association
Driver Vehicle and Licensing Agency
Driver and Vehicle Testing Agency
Eddie Stobart Ltd
Environmental Transport Association
EXEL
Farmers Union of England
Farmers Union of Scotland
Farmers Union of Wales
Federation of Public Passenger
Transport Employers
Federation of Small Businesses
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
Office of the Traffic Commissioner
Oxford Cambridge and RSA Examinations
Office of the Deputy Prime Minister
Office of the Traffic Commissioner
Oxford Cambridge and RSA Examinations Parliamentary Advisory Council on Transport Safety
P&O Ferrymasters Ltd
PCM LGV Driver Training
Police Federation of England and Wales
Public and Commercial Services Union
Public Carriage Office
Qualifications and Curriculum Authority
Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment
RAC (motoring services)
J Coates (HGV Services Ltd)
Joint Committee on Mobility for the Disabled
Justice Clerks Society
Judith Hearn Agency Ltd
LDV Ltd
Learn and Live
Lex Vehicle Leasing
Leyland Trucks Ltd
LGV Ltd
Local Authority Road Safety Officers Association
Local Government Association
Logistical Support Services
London United Busways Ltd
Lothian Buses Plc
Magistrates’ Association
MAN ERF Ltd
MAN ERF UK Ltd
Mercedes Benz UK Ltd
Mersey Travel
Metropolitan Police
Military Vehicle Trust
Minimise Your Risk
Ministry Of Defence
Mobility Advice and Vehicle Information Services
Motability
Motor Schools Association of GB Ltd
National Assembly of Wales
National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux
National Association of Local Councils
National Council on Inland Transport
National Council on Voluntary Organisations
National Express Group PLC
National Farmers Union
National Federation of Self Employed & Small Businesses
National Federation of Bus Users
National Freight Consortium PLC
National Farmers Union (Scotland)
National Private Hire Association
National Union of Rail ,Maritime and
Transport Workers
National Union of Road Transport
Operators National
National Union of Teachers
RAC Motoring Services
RAC Foundation
Authority for Wales
Recruitment and Employment
Confederation
Red Rose Training (BOLTON) Ltd
Renault Business Links
Renault Trucks UK Ltd
Ritchie’s Training Centre
Road Haulage Association
Road Operators Safety Council
Roadpeace
Royal Mail Southeast
RTITB Ltd
Royal Association for Disability and
Rehabilitation
Scania Great Britain Ltd
Scottish Qualifications Authority
Scottish Executive
Skills for Logistics
Small Business Service
Social Exclusion Unit
Stagecoach
States of Jersey Driver and Vehicle
Standards
Steel Horse Transport Services
Steve Robertson Transport
TNT UK Ltd
Tangerine Training Solutions
Trades Union Congress
Transport and General Workers Union
Unison
Volvo Truck and Bus
VOSA
VT plc (Vosper Thorneycroft)
Wallace School of Transport
Welsh Assembly
Wincanton
Wm Morrison Plc
Women’s National Commission
Yellow Buses
Zurich Insurance
958 Trainers on the DSA Voluntary
Register of LGV Trainers
266 Delegated Examiners
150 Road Safety Officers
87 Government Departments and Agencies
39 Theory Test Translators

This thread Another cycling moron hits the road - #12 by truckerjon - THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE) - Trucknet UK has some Youtube videos from the Head of communications for the Environmental Transport Association. these are the kinds of idiots that have MORE of a say over the DCPC than actual drivers!

[djw]

For the sake of saving time, I’m replying to some broad themes without quotes, for which I apologise.

An EU directive is binding as to the result to be achieved, but the mechanism for implementation is left to each Member State (Article 288 Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union). In other words, whilst the Directive lays down what the UK must do, including details such as blocks of 7 hours and 35 hours’ training required every five years, it doesn’t determine what that training contains.

Though some here object to the DCPC on principle, the bulk of the complaints are about how the periodic training is currently implemented in the UK. That is a matter that the UK Government can address.

Petitions are a means to draw a matter to Parliament’s attention - they are not a referendum on an issue. Getting 100k signatures on an e-petition doesn’t mean that Parliament must do what is requested (as can be seen by the petition on fuel prices that got 100k signatures). 100k signatures doesn’t even guarantee a debate in Parliament, though a debate would be expected to result.

There is little point petitioning for the UK to abolish DCPC entirely. Even if you got 100k signatures on such a petition, Parliament will not go against its obligation in both EU and UK law (section 2 of the European Communities Act 1972) to implement the DCPC Directive. That is likely why previous petitions causing for abolition of the DCPC have been removed - it was established that the Government could not do what was being requested.

Is it not more profitable to petition on the perceived weaknesses of the UK system that Parliament can address, namely the UK’s system for periodic training?

I question whether a petition is the right way to address any concerns - you might get a better result writing to your MP and asking him or her to put your concerns to the minister. Though you will likely get fobbed off, if enough drivers contact their MPs, the Department for Transport will become aware there is an issue. You don’t need 100k signatures to do this - you need one.

The need for continuing professional development is well-recognised in many professions. As many here have said, there is arguably a need for ongoing training - but it needs to be the right training. Listening to a boring course filled with errors is a waste of everybody’s time - but DCPC training doesn’t have to be that way.

So far as the list of consultees goes, the Government send a copy of a consultation document to those organisations they believe are most likely to have relevant input. However, many of those consultees will not bother to respond.

Consultation documents are posted online and responses are accepted from anyone, including individuals. An individual driver had just as much say as an environmental organisation - the only difference is that they would not have been sent a copy of the document.

A summary of responses and the government’s response to a consultation are published. If someone feels the consultation was not run correctly or it was a nominal exercise rather than genuine consultation (i.e. “we’ve already made our mind up”), they can bring their challenge in the courts via an application for judicial review.

[war1974]

seemed to be an awful lot of ‘training’ companies on that list wonder why they didnt object to the dcpc?? oh thats right kerrching

[truckerjon]

DJW, almost all of what you have posted above has been done at sometime by many drivers. I personally have written to my MP, To my MEP, to the CEO of DSA, to JAUPT and i know of many drivers who have done the same. Every one of us recieved the same condesending replys, which show that the powers that be are all singing from the same hymn sheet.
I know others elsewhere have done a lot more than this,meetings with ministers who failed to even show enough respect to even turn up for the meeting, but I won’t go there and provoke arguements, but it seems that those in power have set thier path, and not even logic or honesty is going to stop them from taking it.
I would love to see the DCPC applied to new drivers,scrap the initial CPC, make it one module per year in a set curriculum for the first 10 years of holding a vocational licence. All drivers with less than 10 years on thier licence to complete one module a year until thier 10th anniversery. After 10 years there is little more than refesher training that needs to be done, and does that really need 35 hours? Proof of at least 7 hours training per year, i.e. company training certificate including driving assessment, ADR, Hiab, FLT, NVQ, or a signed certifacte from a registered trainer or training company showing 7 hours training, or a pass of an official driving assessment.
Just some ideas, not saying they are right.

[war1974]

i also wonder how much each government will get as a kick back from the EU for particiapating in the dcpc?

[wavyok]

Dont think it will do any good as too big a trough to give up but signed it anyway.
WE TRY WE HOPE

[djw]

truckerjon:
DJW, almost all of what you have posted above has been done at sometime by many drivers. I personally have written to my MP, To my MEP, to the CEO of DSA, to JAUPT and i know of many drivers who have done the same. Every one of us recieved the same condesending replys, which show that the powers that be are all singing from the same hymn sheet.
I know others elsewhere have done a lot more than this,meetings with ministers who failed to even show enough respect to even turn up for the meeting, but I won’t go there and provoke arguements, but it seems that those in power have set thier path, and not even logic or honesty is going to stop them from taking it.

I wasn’t denying that many have put a lot of effort into campaigning for DCPC reform. My reply was aimed primarily at scoping out what is achiveable. There is little point putting a great deal of effort into lines of campaign that are doomed because of the legal framework within which the UK Government must work. It is also important to recognise the limits of petitions - in this online age, they have become very popular, but they cannot force change and may not even force a debate.

The sort of condescending reply you describe is, unfortunately, typical. A civil servant is called on to draft a template reply thanking you for your concerns, outlining why the Government’s policy is a good idea, and promising to keep the area under review. This is then sent out to everyone without really addressing the specific points raised.

The way that our democracy works means that the only direct input the public has is at the ballot box. Once we have elected our MPs, and indirectly though the election of MPs, our ministers, they have only a moral and political obligations to implement their manifesto pledges - and that is assuming a single party government rather than the coalition we have at present. There have been attempts in the courts to hold the government to its manifesto commitments or to promises made in opposition, and they have all failed (one example that comes to mind is R (on the application of Begbie v Department Of Education & Employment [1999] EWCA Civ 2100 from paragraph 14).

If ministers are determined to do something and Parliament doesn’t object to it, there is nothing the people can do, unless an error is made that opens the way for judicial review (though that can only review the legality of a decision, not the decision itself). Apart from the odd occasions where government MPs rebel, ministers will have their way.

Arguably the most effective way to facilitate change is to raise specific concerns with an MP that lead to a question in the House or an adjournment debate. However, these opportunities are limited and MPs use them carefully. Their power is limited in the face of a determined minister.

Do any potentially interested groups (unions, industry groups etc.) have a ‘tame’ MP who might be interested in doing something?

truckerjon:
I would love to see the DCPC applied to new drivers,scrap the initial CPC, make it one module per year in a set curriculum for the first 10 years of holding a vocational licence. All drivers with less than 10 years on thier licence to complete one module a year until thier 10th anniversery. After 10 years there is little more than refesher training that needs to be done, and does that really need 35 hours? Proof of at least 7 hours training per year, i.e. company training certificate including driving assessment, ADR, Hiab, FLT, NVQ, or a signed certifacte from a registered trainer or training company showing 7 hours training, or a pass of an official driving assessment.
Just some ideas, not saying they are right.

Unfortunately most of this is impossible within the current EU DCPC Directive. The initial DCPC for new drivers, 35 hours periodic training in five 7 hour blocks over five years, the lack of exemption for any commercial drivers and the areas the DCPC covers are all laid down in the Directive and the UK cannot change these things unilaterally.

What the UK can change is the JAUPT system and the way it accredits periodic training. The content of some periodic training courses and the quality of some accredited providers seem to be the biggest areas of complaint.

I think there could usefully be pressure brought to bear on the EU in certain specific areas. In particular, I think that providers should be allowed to deliver training in 3.5 hour half day courses, with a driver having to take two of these 3.5 hour courses in a 12 month period to claim a single 7 hour credit. It seems daft that training that is otherwise valid for the DCPC can’t be claimed because it was delivered in half day chunks rather than full days.

CE upgrade training that is delivered 1:1 won’t last for 7 hours a day, so cannot count for DCPC. The same training delivered 2:1 will typically last 7 hours a day, so could potentially count for DCPC even though the trainee does no more driving and could be napping in the cab whilst the other trainee drives.

I cannot find any clarity about specific changes that drivers want. This is probably the biggest barrier to any campaign for change.

Every time there is a DCPC thread here, plenty of people weigh in with their ideas. At best, people unite around what they don’t want - but if the current system is changed, it has to be replaced with something because the EU aren’t going to drop DCPC. If we do not want the current system for periodic training, what system of periodic training do we want?

[motosnape]

I favour the DCPC. I have no links with the training industry. Tim1962 has kindly mirrored my thoughts, saving me the time of typing them!

Tim1962:
I am in favour but to be credible it must evolve. Phase 1, as is with the exception that you must do 5 different modules. Phase 2 attendance + test , candidates may be coached to pass but this must not take the form of blatantly giving answers. Phase 3 test only if you are confident or test + refresher training if you are less able. This is how it works for Gas Operatives. Because I work hands on at a high level I only need to undertake a quick refresher and then do the exam. Someone who only does a small amount of work or works in a limited area will do more training to get up to speed with the areas they do not come into regular contact with.

Truck and Coach drivers are equal to plumbers, most went into the trade because they are practical not academic. With a good trainer the ones that fail are the ones who want to do things their way instead of the way they are taught, not because they can’t complete a test.

It’s not unreasonable to expect a reasonable literacy standard, even the most basic pictograms warnings will have qualifying text, and if the purpose of the sign is to protect me is it unreasonable of me to expect you to be able to read it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

There are complaints that we shouldn’t be doing the DCPC while it still needs further development. Virtually everything requires further development and refinement after initial release. I’m sure that all of you are using IT which regularly requires updates. Is it reasonable to expect DCPC to be right immediately? Not likely, you can’t please everyone…

[wheel_nut]

motosnape:
There are complaints that we shouldn’t be doing the DCPC while it still needs further development. Virtually everything requires further development and refinement after initial release. I’m sure that all of you are using IT which regularly requires updates. Is it reasonable to expect DCPC to be right immediately? Not likely, you can’t please everyone…

Using your same analogy of IT. A savvy operator would delay the launch of a flawed piece of kit or put it out as BETA.

Our own Government have the option to delay this thing until 2016 for goods vehicle drivers. It is 2012 now. There is more than enough time to oust JAUPT and buy in a cheaper system that works. A Model of the FIMO FCOS or the Dutch Diploma is proven and also includes a driven section.

A couple of points above, no licences can be revoked if you do not take the DCPC, neither can insurers refuse to cover non holders of the card. I held back from calling it a qualification.

[djw]

Wheel Nut:
no licences can be revoked if you do not take the DCPC

Agreed - your licence remains in place, but you are not entitled to make commercial use of LGV or PCVÂ entitlement without valid DCPC. Those who took first gained LGVÂ entitlement after September 2009 and/or first gained PCVÂ entitlement after September 2008 cannot use their entitlement to drive commercially without taking the relevant module 2 and module 4 tests.

Wheel Nut:
neither can insurers refuse to cover non holders of the card

I wouldn’t be so sure of that. Insurers can impose any condition they like that falls within what is allowable in contract law. There are relatively few things that are unfair and therefore unenforceable in contracts between two businesses (i.e. an insurance company and a business operating LGVs commercially).

There’s probably legal restrictions precluding the withdrawal of third party cover when a driver doesn’t have driver CPC, but the law is unlikely to interfere in restrictions on cover beyond the legal minimum. If a driver destroys a vehicle, a load and a bridge, then the boss finds out he only has third party cover, neither the driver nor the person who should have checked the driver’s DCPC status would be popular!

[tony4562]

In very simple terms a Drivers role is to, Drive from A to B, with his/her load safely.

Im of the opinion that a Driver cannot be taught to drive in a classroom, that requires sitting behind a steering wheel and driving.

How about securing your load.(Not so difficult for PSV) but with (HGV Haulage), Loads can be so varied (from a small box to abnormal loads and everything and anything else inbetween) dependant on your job role. Trailers are also so varied (from flatbeds, skeletons, Tilts, low loaders, etc etc) (Therefore this training can only be taught relative to the job role you are undertaking)

We already have ADR, Hiab, Moffet etc that require certification following training for the role that; that driver is undertaking. (I admit that some classroom work, does need to be delivered dependant on the subject)

If it is insisted by the powers that be, that HGV/PSV Drivers need further training to improve the Industry. Then we need to be leaving the training to employers, for the role that that driver undertakes, as it is so varied.

If a drivers competence needs to be assessed periodically, then why not have a regulated body (funded preferably by the Government). They could Visit drivers periodically to assess their driving standard, safety and knowledge. If it is not up to the required standard then an action plan could be given to both the driver/employer to ensure that drivers are then trained to the standard required within a required amount of time.

Safety is the most important factor, but the blanket training that this legislation is introducing, could not possibly replace individual skills, already taught to drivers for the varied roles they are employed to do. After all when a driver changes his/her employment they are either employed by an employer as they are skilled in that job role, or they undertake further training for it.

This has got to be a better approach for drivers, employers and the Industry.

[banquo]

The point about the cpc is that it does not improve driving standards in it’s present form.

1. Driving standards in the uk are among the highest in the world
2. If you pass your hgv licence you have proved yourself to be a professional advanced driver.

I heard another driver say to a trainer “what on earth are you going to talk about in class room for 7 hours”

It really is farcical- even the rha (which supports the cpc) struggles to fill the time with any useful, credible information but instead relies on silly basic rules and regs which we do every single day in our professional life.

I would be quite happy to pay a trainer cash for 35 hours of uploads and never set foot in a class room-it is a discredited worthless qualification-bin it!

[happydaze]

Banquo:
The point about the cpc is that it does not improve driving standards in it’s present form.

1. Driving standards in the uk are among the highest in the world
2. If you pass your hgv licence you have proved yourself to be a professional advanced driver.

I heard another driver say to a trainer “what on earth are you going to talk about in class room for 7 hours”

It really is farcical- even the rha (which supports the cpc) struggles to fill the time with any useful, credible information but instead relies on silly basic rules and regs which we do every single day in our professional life.

I would be quite happy to pay a trainer cash for 35 hours of uploads and never set foot in a class room-it is a discredited worthless qualification-bin it!

I agree with most of what you say, except.

1. Not true.
2. You’ve proved you have the ability to drive to the minimum standard as defined by the DSA. For an hour.

[banquo]

I have been class 1 for over 25 years, have an excellent safety record and not one endorsement of which i am proud. I keep up my knowledge of legislation by reading the truck magazines and web sites. My driving skills come from pure experience and nothing else-trucks today are so much easier to drive, more comfortable and require less hands on maintenance that in the past.
I have done 21 hours cpc and absolutely nothing , i will say again absolutely nothing i have heard has changed one iota the way i drive or improved my knowledge.
Apart from losing 3 days work i discovered that the trainer had never even set foot in a truck!!- Just how patronising is that for someone who was driving double clutch and crash boxes before this trainer was born.
At the very least if we are going to have to suffer this, at least each trainer should be experienced in what he/SHE is talking about

[happydaze]

Banquo:
I have been class 1 for over 25 years, have an excellent safety record and not one endorsement of which i am proud. I keep up my knowledge of legislation by reading the truck magazines and web sites. My driving skills come from pure experience and nothing else-trucks today are so much easier to drive, more comfortable and require less hands on maintenance that in the past.
I have done 21 hours cpc and absolutely nothing , i will say again absolutely nothing i have heard has changed one iota the way i drive or improved my knowledge.
Apart from losing 3 days work i discovered that the trainer had never even set foot in a truck!!- Just how patronising is that for someone who was driving double clutch and crash boxes before this trainer was born.
At the very least if we are going to have to suffer this, at least each trainer should be experienced in what he/SHE is talking about

I didn’t mean you personally!

The rest of this post, I absolutely agree with.

[shep532]

truckerjon:
After 10 years there is little more than refesher training that needs to be done, and does that really need 35 hours? Proof of at least 7 hours training per year, i.e. company training certificate including driving assessment, ADR, Hiab, FLT, NVQ, or a signed certifacte from a registered trainer or training company showing 7 hours training, or a pass of an official driving assessment.
Just some ideas, not saying they are right.

You have just described the current DCPC - there’s nothing any different in what you have written.

For the periodic training all you need is an approved certificate of 7 hours training - usually per year. Even a driving assessment counts if it totals 7 hours when mixed with some other stuff. the certificate has to be from a registered trainer.

[shep532]

djw:
I think that providers should be allowed to deliver training in 3.5 hour half day courses, with a driver having to take two of these 3.5 hour courses in a 12 month period to claim a single 7 hour credit. It seems daft that training that is otherwise valid for the DCPC can’t be claimed because it was delivered in half day chunks rather than full days.

Couldn’t agree more. 7 hours in a classroom is just too long. I’d really like it if this change could be made

[shep532]

Banquo:
I have been class 1 for over 25 years, have an excellent safety record and not one endorsement of which i am proud. I keep up my knowledge of legislation by reading the truck magazines and web sites. My driving skills come from pure experience and nothing else-trucks today are so much easier to drive, more comfortable and require less hands on maintenance that in the past.
I have done 21 hours cpc and absolutely nothing , i will say again absolutely nothing i have heard has changed one iota the way i drive or improved my knowledge.
Apart from losing 3 days work i discovered that the trainer had never even set foot in a truck!!- Just how patronising is that for someone who was driving double clutch and crash boxes before this trainer was born.
At the very least if we are going to have to suffer this, at least each trainer should be experienced in what he/SHE is talking about

I have been delivering DCPC training since September 2009. I couldn’t deliver before then because it didn’t exist. i was however delivering training before then. And yes i have driven a variety of vehicles and loads, as well as load them, fix them and also holding an operators CPC.

So lets say for ease i have met and delivered training to 500+ drivers and lets just stick to basic drivers hours rules. I would estimate that probably about 20% of these drivers actually knew all the rules they should know. Possibly less. the rest knew some of the rules, and some rules that don’t even exist.

I can only comment on my experiences and my experiences show that a very high percentage of drivers I have met have needed and appreciated the training.

Today i got a call from an owner operator who has been in the job 20+ years. “I’m stuck there’s been an accident and my 4 1/2 hours drive is almost up. What do i do?” He went on to explain he had been sitting in the cab for 4 1/2 hours - but hadn’t moved for the last 50 minutes and was now panicking about getting his break. he had no idea that legally - he had just had his break sitting in the jam.

20+ years in the job and clearly doesn’t know what he should know.

The training is needed in one way or another and at least the DCPC has started something that will benefit a large amount of people in the industry