28 minutes

BuzzardBoy:
I was JD’s mate who witnessed this accident. The whys and wherefores of who’s at fault doesn’t matter, this thread isn’t about that.

I called the emergency services at 12:14, again at 12:30 and again at 12:40 to find out where they were. I do know the reason it took 28 minutes for them to arrive but I am not going to put it on an open forum where it can be viewed by members of the deceased’s mans family. Once the inquest has been held only then will the true facts of what happened become known. I know what happened as I saw it first hand, and it will live with me forever.
Whilst people all like a bit of gossip, I do myself, just remember a man, a husband, a father and a grandparent has lost his life just going about his daily life

RIP David Simpson, Sorry I couldn’t do more :0(

I know how you feel and I know what your going through. Till this day I cannot get this incident out of my head when I was first on scene at a fatal. A driver was dead in his car with very bad injuries. Further down the road there was a driver trying to keep his head above water. I cannot get this incident out of my head :cry:

I’ve seen a number of dead bodies but this incident cannot be forgotten

mickyblue:

Rob K:
Only Carryfast could turn a topic about a man dying and a delayed ambulance into a full blown one on Chevrolet V8 engines. :unamused: :unamused: :unamused:

+1

That’s what he is known for. Hijacking a thread and twisting it in to a debate. I thin he has also forgot it’s a thread about a poor driver minding his own business and gets killed.

I feel sorry for anyone who had to witness that

The op’s post seems to be all about the response time in regard to the unfortunate casualty in this case although obviously in this case no one knows the reasons for that.However there’s nothing anyone can do about that now.‘But’ there’s nothing wrong with having an argument about the present state of the British NHS and emergency service systems which can only add to the situation of response times and journey times and treatment of future similar types of casualties. :unamused:

So why is that so called hi jacking in your view :question: :confused: Although the op or the mods obviously don’t seem to have made a similar comment.

Start another thread?

Just think. If the victims family come across this thread all they will see is drivers having a debate about what ambulances they should be using. Maybe another thread could have been started?

What do I know, I am just a dipstick

mickyblue:
Start another thread?

Just think. If the victims family come across this thread all they will see is drivers having a debate about what ambulances they should be using. Maybe another thread could have been started?

What do I know, I am just a dipstick

It’s not about the victim ( which is a private matter for the relatives etc ) it’s actually ‘supposed’ to be all about the response time. :bulb: :unamused:

28 minutes is abit long but its not unusual to have to wait this and longer, The frontline of the NHS is failing but all the suits can do is employ another suit on £35000 to do a report and impose more targets to be met by the ever decreasing front line staff…

a couple of years ago york service started to try and place ambulances in certain areas and when quiet to park up in same area (as an effort to reduce response times and end of the day assist the public when needed) the amount of complaints received form the public of ambulance crews being parked up and tossing it off forced the service to abandon the idea…

i used to work at local uni and its not unusual for ambulance to be called 12 times a night for basic things especially as the uni withdrew any medical cover… same goes with old peoples homes ect where there are no longer any medically trained staff on site so when a problem arises its 999…

my wife works for NHS and knows a few crews and its a regular occurrence for a crew to wait nearly an entire shift in A+E, or to spend a complete shift ferrying folk about who either did not need hospital treatment (but the crew are obliged to get patient checked over) or maybe did need treatment but a taxi would have been ok…

Carryfast:
That sounds like a typical Labour Party political broadcast to me.So you’re saying let’s have socialism because it’s supposedly better when all the evidence says it’s not. :unamused:

You’re also saying that,although it’s supposed to be an emergency vehicle,we don’t need to give an ambulance a decent performance because speed is never going to be an issue both in regards to getting the patient to hospital or response time before the medics even get to the patient to start with.All based on the bs issue of cost because under the present state funded system the money just isn’t there.

When what’s actually needed is for people to be paid decent wages to afford to pay the going rate privately for their health and emergency cover,in an economy that hasn’t been thrown to global free market and maybe helped and subsidised with a decent taxation system that reflects that very real issue which I’ve identified of taxation policy concerning the rich. So as to do something about that situation of up to 350 hp + Range Rovers being used for shopping,while the masses get a 156 hp 4 t ambulance for that emergency dash in response to and on route to hospital in the event of a life threatening illness or injury,in which every minute spent waiting and then on the road,as opposed to in the operating theatre,could be the difference between life and death.Especially in a situation of delays and extra distances caused by cost cutting in the bs NHS system,on the basis of replacing lots of well equipped well staffed hospitals, covering lots of different areas,with one so called ‘centre of excellence’ which no surprise causes increased travel times and massive backlogs of patients because of the overcrowding caused by the increased catchment area.

The fact is socialism and communism are both excatly the same bs systems and this country has had more than it’s fair share of both regardless of the political title of the government and being subjected to yet more of the same,which you’re obviously proposing,isn’t the answer.Maybe in your case the speed of the ambulance,in regards to response time and travel time to hospital,didn’t matter but that doesn’t mean that’s the same in every situation.Although it’s no surprise that the socialists wouldn’t be able to get their heads around the idea of every situation being different in just the same way that socialism and communism,by definition,uses a one size fits all policy in regards to everything.IE it’s easy enough to not use all the performance of a fast ambulance when it’s not needed.But it’s impossible to use that performance, when it is needed,if it’s not there.Socialism bs. :imp: :unamused:

I’m sorry Carryfast, someone’s signature on here stated that “sometimes you’ll always be drawn down to a particular person’s level in an argument” and I can’t be bothered to carry on sinking to that level as I feel I’m going off topic too now!

Just two things though to your ill thought out argument:

Remember in living memory we did used to have a completely private healthcare system, have a look at the average life expectancy of the general population and the mortality rate at accidents and what we call now “common illnesses” then. When people actually couldn’t afford a doctor, regardless of how truly ill they were!

So good luck with thinking a completely private healthcare is the answer, when you and or your loved one is ill and we have gone down that route.

Also remember a private healthcare system still completely relies on the NHS in an emergency too and for medically trained staff (private consultants for starters (9/10) work for the NHS first and foremost). If you are unfortunate to have a complication that turns to an emergency whilst having a private operation and it goes wrong you will be transferred to a NHS hospital where they can provide you with the care you require and an NHS “cheap poverty spec heap” ambulance is called to transfer you to that NHS hospital too!

Now tell me solicalistic ideals are bs, when we as a country have created the NHS, which was created to treat us all in our country for free. Not many other countries in the world have a truly free healthcare system (that does still have to be paid for somehow, no-one is altruistic to run it yet, not even you Carryfast). The only way we can afford to run it is by being efficient and putting as much taxation into it as required to sustain and improve it, but unfortunately it is suffering itself now!

Second thing one of your

Carryfast:
cheap poverty spec heap 156 hp 4 tambulances

did a very admirable job of getting to my mother who was having a heart attack with 12 minutes of call out (ok its below target officially :unamused: ) in a village just outside of Aberdare and then took us to the Prince Charles Hospital 10 miles away as quickly as humanly possible for emergency treatment.

Them roads aren’t know for being as good as the south East’s for either quality, straightness or gradient, but I don’t think for one minute that a V8 would have made a blind bit of difference to her recovery. To me it will always be the First Responder and then the Paramedic’s getting her to the best hospital to deal with her condition and provide the best treatment in the area!

But hey what do I know I’m a “Socialist Agency Weekender Scum Wheel Tapper, Full Time Engineer” I’m the lowest of the low to a man of your superiority!

Personally I think it is you who has lost sight of the original OP this time, not the others.

C

Constantine:

Carryfast:
That sounds like a typical Labour Party political broadcast to me.So you’re saying let’s have socialism because it’s supposedly better when all the evidence says it’s not. :unamused:

You’re also saying that,although it’s supposed to be an emergency vehicle,we don’t need to give an ambulance a decent performance because speed is never going to be an issue both in regards to getting the patient to hospital or response time before the medics even get to the patient to start with.All based on the bs issue of cost because under the present state funded system the money just isn’t there.

When what’s actually needed is for people to be paid decent wages to afford to pay the going rate privately for their health and emergency cover,in an economy that hasn’t been thrown to global free market and maybe helped and subsidised with a decent taxation system that reflects that very real issue which I’ve identified of taxation policy concerning the rich. So as to do something about that situation of up to 350 hp + Range Rovers being used for shopping,while the masses get a 156 hp 4 t ambulance for that emergency dash in response to and on route to hospital in the event of a life threatening illness or injury,in which every minute spent waiting and then on the road,as opposed to in the operating theatre,could be the difference between life and death.Especially in a situation of delays and extra distances caused by cost cutting in the bs NHS system,on the basis of replacing lots of well equipped well staffed hospitals, covering lots of different areas,with one so called ‘centre of excellence’ which no surprise causes increased travel times and massive backlogs of patients because of the overcrowding caused by the increased catchment area.

The fact is socialism and communism are both excatly the same bs systems and this country has had more than it’s fair share of both regardless of the political title of the government and being subjected to yet more of the same,which you’re obviously proposing,isn’t the answer.Maybe in your case the speed of the ambulance,in regards to response time and travel time to hospital,didn’t matter but that doesn’t mean that’s the same in every situation.Although it’s no surprise that the socialists wouldn’t be able to get their heads around the idea of every situation being different in just the same way that socialism and communism,by definition,uses a one size fits all policy in regards to everything.IE it’s easy enough to not use all the performance of a fast ambulance when it’s not needed.But it’s impossible to use that performance, when it is needed,if it’s not there.Socialism bs. :imp: :unamused:

I’m sorry Carryfast, someone’s signature on here stated that “sometimes you’ll always be drawn down to a particular person’s level in an argument” and I can’t be bothered to carry on sinking to that level as I feel I’m going off topic too now!

Just two things though to your ill thought out argument:

Remember in living memory we did used to have a completely private healthcare system, have a look at the average life expectancy of the general population and the mortality rate at accidents and what we call now “common illnesses” then. When people actually couldn’t afford a doctor, regardless of how truly ill they were!

So good luck with thinking a completely private healthcare is the answer, when you and or your loved one is ill and we have gone down that route.

Also remember a private healthcare system still completely relies on the NHS in an emergency too and for medically trained staff (private consultants for starters (9/10) work for the NHS first and foremost). If you are unfortunate to have a complication that turns to an emergency whilst having a private operation and it goes wrong you will be transferred to a NHS hospital where they can provide you with the care you require and an NHS “cheap poverty spec heap” ambulance is called to transfer you to that NHS hospital too!

Now tell me solicalistic ideals are bs, when we as a country have created the NHS, which was created to treat us all in our country for free. Not many other countries in the world have a truly free healthcare system (that does still have to be paid for somehow, no-one is altruistic to run it yet, not even you Carryfast). The only way we can afford to run it is by being efficient and putting as much taxation into it as required to sustain and improve it, but unfortunately it is suffering itself now!

Second thing one of your

Carryfast:
cheap poverty spec heap 156 hp 4 tambulances

did a very admirable job of getting to my mother who was having a heart attack with 12 minutes of call out (ok its below target officially :unamused: ) in a village just outside of Aberdare and then took us to the Prince Charles Hospital 10 miles away as quickly as humanly possible for emergency treatment.

Them roads aren’t know for being as good as the south East’s for either quality, straightness or gradient, but I don’t think for one minute that a V8 would have made a blind bit of difference to her recovery. To me it will always be the First Responder and then the Paramedic’s getting her to the best hospital to deal with her condition and provide the best treatment in the area!

But hey what do I know I’m a “Socialist Agency Weekender Scum Wheel Tapper, Full Time Engineering Surveyor” I’m the lowest of the low to a man of your superiority!

Personally I think it is you who has lost sight of the original OP this time, not the others.

C

That says it all the socialists really do believe that you can run a health system for ‘free’ when there’s actually no such thing as a free lunch.The only difference is that it’s either funded by taxation or it’s funded by patients paying privately for their treatment.In either case the money has to be earn’t first.

The fact is it makes no difference wether the wages aren’t sufficient to pay for private health cover as in the case of the US now and as in the case of the UK pre NHS,or they aren’t sufficient to pay for a taxation based system as in the case of the UK under the NHS.The end result is the same resulting in people becoming statistics because the money just isn’t there to pay for a decent health system because the CBI would rather keep the money,which should be paid to workers to cover themselves and their families,to keep profits margins higher than they should be together with subsidised taxation rates for the high earners in real terms which puts money into the pockets of the rich which should also be paid into the health care system to reduce the cost loadings on the lower paid.That’s real capitalism as opposed to bs socialism which believes it can all be done for free. :unamused:

As for the south east’s long straight billiard table smooth roads that sounds like a similar type of socialist dream when the reality is very different just as is the case of Epsom Hospital’s lost surgical capabilities and soon to be lost altogether A and E capability.Which is a thought that anyone who uses the south west section of the M25 needs to bear in mind considering the equally zb state of our ambulance service to match just as anyone here would now probably need to be taken to an over subscribed St Georges well inside London in the case like that of your mother’s. :unamused:

Constantine:
The only way we can afford to run it is by being efficient and putting as much taxation into it as required to sustain and improve it, but unfortunately it is suffering itself now!..C

Never said it will be free, have always said from the start it has to be funded by taxation, check back over the posts.

But it’s free at source the last time I went to A&E and the GP’s I didn’t need to hand an insurance card or cash or cheque to see a doctor/triage nurse. And I doubt you had to hand over an insurance card/cash or cheque the last time you used a doctor’s service.

So is that free to me as a user or not…it’s not free as a tax payer but as a user it practically is. But then neither are a lot of services I use, because my tax payments would barely cover half a nurse’s wages, let alone all the other stuff I use, so I can’t claim all of that money is from me can I.

Considering I live in East Anglia and commute round the South East in the full time job as well quite a bit, them roads are quite a lot straighter and smoother down here than in the Valleys. Unforutnately you can’t argue the geography between the two places as they are that different. Not a “socialist dream” unfortunately it is a fact, you can check Google or Bing Earth satellite layers if you don’t believe me and turn the road layout off :laughing:

C

Constantine:

Constantine:
The only way we can afford to run it is by being efficient and putting as much taxation into it as required to sustain and improve it, but unfortunately it is suffering itself now!..C

Never said it will be free, have always said from the start it has to be funded by taxation, check back over the posts.

But it’s free at source the last time I went to A&E and the GP’s I didn’t need to hand an insurance card or cash or cheque to see a doctor/triage nurse. And I doubt you had to hand over an insurance card/cash or cheque the last time you used a doctor’s service.

So is that free to me as a user or not…it’s not free as a tax payer but as a user it practically is. But then neither are a lot of services I use, because my tax payments would barely cover half a nurse’s wages, let alone all the other stuff I use, so I can’t claim all of that money is from me can I.

C

As you actually said the NHS was dreamt up by a load of socialist dreamers with the aim of providing a ‘free’ medical cover provision.

The fact that your tax contributions don’t cover the medical costs of your own needs proves the point I’m making when you multiply that shortfall across the whole population including non wage earners such as those too young and too old to work etc etc etc.The only way to fund the system is through increasing wage levels to make private medical cover affordable and taxation subsidies from those with the ability to pay them in order to sort out the inherent financial shortfall.Instead of which we’ve obviously got a system based on ongoing cut backs in medical and emergency cover in real terms,to deal with the ever present symptoms of the basic inherent financial shortfalls in the whole flawed bs socialist idea of the NHS.Which is doomed to failure and,like all the other bs so called cradle to grave government provided ‘benefits’,in reality is just a government run scam to subsidise low wage employment and the profits of British business through the avoidance of paying sufficient wages to cover everyone’s true lifetime medical cover costs in real terms.

Just as is the case now in the US the only difference is that most people there ( rightly ) aren’t naive enough to think that creating a similar type of scheme that we’ve got would fix that situation.Which is why they don’t seem to have cut their front line emergency ambulance services down to using 4 tonne vehicles powered by 156 hp engines and downgrading many of their hospitals by removing their surgical capabilities and ER facilities in a vain attempt to make medical cover ‘affordable’.

Medical bills also is the largest cause of personal bankruptcy in the states.
Yes there hospitals are great if you can afford to pay which many cant

The argument that private medical insurance will provide ambulances with big high performance engines etc seems to fall down when you read this

astambulance.com/our-vehicles/index.html

Obviousley I don’t know, but I suspect that these vehicles will have the same power plant as NHS ambulances.
I would also imagine that in a modern British “capitalist” society, the providers will supply the most profit efficient vehicle for their shareholders rather than the best option for their customers.

& just to add you don’t need to quote the whole of the person’s post you are replying to as this just clogs the pages up!

Here in london all of our ambulances seem to be mercedes sprinters which id imagine aint the cheapest vehicle avalible.

del949:
The argument that private medical insurance will provide ambulances with big high performance engines etc seems to fall down when you read this

astambulance.com/our-vehicles/index.html

Obviousley I don’t know, but I suspect that these vehicles will have the same power plant as NHS ambulances.
I would also imagine that in a modern British “capitalist” society, the providers will supply the most profit efficient vehicle for their shareholders rather than the best option for their customers.

As in all cases del you’ll only get what you pay for and the private ambulance and health services will provide whatever the customer demands ‘if’ the money is paid for it.Which explains why our previous fleet of fast US type ambulances ended up in private hands while the peasants are left with the cheaper alternative.

As for the NHS,like all the other bs socialist so called ‘benefits’,the idea isn’t there to benefit the customer/user it’s actually all about a ■■■■■■■■■■ government provided ( and rationed ) cheap rate alternative in order to subsidise the profits of the CBI by not having wage levels which reflect the true costs of running a decent health care system.

In the case of medical services it seems obvious that what’s needed is a mainly privately funded system with government imposed profit margin limits with taxation funding/subsidy by those who are able to pay higher taxes and unions that are bright enough to abandon the bs socialist agenda and strong enough to get wages into line with health care costs in the real world.

Which in this case obviously means something a lot better than putting 156 hp engines in 4 tonne ambulances used for front line emergency use and paying enough to keep ‘all’ the hospitals we’ve got up and running without downdrading many of them in the case of their surgical capabilities and closing their Aand E departments. :bulb:

kr79:
Here in london all of our ambulances seem to be mercedes sprinters which id imagine aint the cheapest vehicle avalible.

Typical German idea of value for money.

While if you look at the LAS policy,just as in the case of all the others around the country,it’s not so much the purchase price which they’re bothered about as the so called ‘running costs’ issue of hoping for massive fuel cost savings etc by running gutless underpowered emergency vehicles.Rather than taking the obviously long proven option,in most developed countries,like North America,Australia and New Zealand,and many private ambulance providers,of using high powered US type vehicles.

heathrowairambulance.com/pri … ce-uk.html

Yeah be a great help in london be able to acelerate butween the speed humps quicker

It would be interesting to know if arrival times varied for male or female ambulance drivers. I do think modern ambulances like what’s effectively a box-bodied Sprinter are maybe too large and heavy particularly with the huge tail-lifts they now have.

Carryfast:
While if you look at the LAS policy,just as in the case of all the others around the country,it’s not so much the purchase price which they’re bothered about as the so called ‘running costs’ issue of hoping for massive fuel cost savings etc by running gutless underpowered emergency vehicles.Rather than taking the obviously long proven option,in most developed countries,like North America,Australia and New Zealand,and many private ambulance providers,of using high powered US type vehicles.

l

google.co.uk/search?q=austr … 40&bih=775

google.co.uk/search?q=austr … 40&bih=775

google.co.uk/search?q=austr … 40&bih=775

lots of them here big american ones

there is even a bedford cf if you look hard enough :laughing:

kr79:
Yeah be a great help in london be able to acelerate butween the speed humps quicker

In that example which I quoted between junction 9 or 10 of the M25 and Kingston,St Helier,or St Georges Hospital there isn’t one speed hump.But there’s plenty of distance and slowing points where 300 + hp would get a 4 tonne ambulance to where it’s going a lot faster than 156 hp would. :wink:

d4c24a:

Carryfast:
While if you look at the LAS policy,just as in the case of all the others around the country,it’s not so much the purchase price which they’re bothered about as the so called ‘running costs’ issue of hoping for massive fuel cost savings etc by running gutless underpowered emergency vehicles.Rather than taking the obviously long proven option,in most developed countries,like North America,Australia and New Zealand,and many private ambulance providers,of using high powered US type vehicles.

l

google.co.uk/search?q=austr … 40&bih=775

google.co.uk/search?q=austr … 40&bih=775

google.co.uk/search?q=austr … 40&bih=775

lots of them here big american ones

there is even a bedford cf if you look hard enough :laughing:

It all makes more sense when you put the right title in. :smiley: :smiling_imp:

google.com/images?q=Chevrole … ew+zealand

google.com/images?q=Chevrole … +Australia