28 day tacho rule digi card

[brit_pete]

RIGHT Neil haveing read the english site about the rules
agree there is no regulation as regards what we are disagreeing
on how ever the RHA posted in AUG2007 about this problem
which was happening in Belgium And as i said ,where I work
we will do a printout if we switch from digital to analouge,
this is done to ensure that we have no problems when visiting those
countrys who have been takeing money off drivers for in their
words non compliance with the RULES and you know yourself how
nice the Austrians ,and Belgians can be,

The Coffee is on me, .

[coffeeholic]

DoYouMeanMe?:
The Belgian police stopped one guy and took him to the police station and wouldn’t let him go until he had paid the fine for this non-existent crime.

More fool him, they can’t hold you forever and as long as people keep coughing up for this they will keep trying it on. They will back down when they are wrong and you stick to your guns, I know that from personal experience.

DoYouMeanMe?:
It’s a small price to pay for a hassle free life to have a daily print out for your digi days if you are driving an analogue motor and going through Belgium.

But you wouldn’t always know you are going to be driving a digi. I don’t have any printouts in my possession, which is fine because I am not required to have any, and when I go into work at 03:45 today for a trip to Germany I expect to be driving my regular digi truck, the same one I’ve driven for each of my last 71 shifts. What happens if that truck is not available and I am given an analogue equipped vehicle? I’m supposed to not go on the trip because I don’t have printouts and the Belgians and Germans are making up the rules as they go along?

[coffeeholic]

brit pete:
RIGHT Neil haveing read the english site about the rules agree there is no regulation as regards what we are disagreeing on

Correct, so the first post you made on this thread when you said you must carry printouts when driving an analogue equipped vehicle was indeed incorrect information, which is what everyone else has been pointing out to you.

brit pete:
how ever the RHA posted in AUG2007 about this problem which was happening in Belgium

Just because the RHA issues a warning about dodgy Belgian police practices that doesn’t mean you must carry printouts, you could if you wanted a quiet life I suppose but there is no must about it.

brit pete:
And as i said ,where I work we will do a printout if we switch from digital to analouge, this is done to ensure that we have no problems when visiting those countrys who have been takeing money off drivers for in their words non compliance with the RULES

Because your company chooses to do more than is legally required it doesn’t make it a must for other people. What would you do if you arrived in work not expecting to be driving a non digi vehicle and you hadn’t got a printout from the last digi you drove? Would you not make the journey to Austria or Belgium, or indeed even leave the yard if the Germans are at it to?

brit pete:
and you know yourself how nice the Austrians ,and Belgians can be,

Yes, but they have never had any money off me under false pretences despite trying.

brit pete:
The Coffee is on me, .

I should think so too, trying to confuse people by saying something is law when it isn’t.

[doyoumeanme_1]

But you wouldn’t always know you are going to be driving a digi. I don’t have any printouts in my possession, which is fine because I am not required to have any, and when I go into work at 03:45 today for a trip to Germany I expect to be driving my regular digi truck, the same one I’ve driven for each of my last 71 shifts. What happens if that truck is not available and I am given an analogue equipped vehicle? I’m supposed to not go on the trip because I don’t have printouts and the Belgians and Germans are making up the rules as they go along?

Then I bet you wouldn’t go anyway because all you kit was in the other truck that’s been stolen. Still, suppose you get used to that living in such a deprived area.

I agree, your right in your interpretation, but equally, the Bellend coppers are sure they are and I reckon it would take less time to print them out than argue.

[dieseldave]

Sometimes the actual statute serves to provide clarity, so here’s my attempt to help the debate.
With help from “copy” and “paste.”

The source of the info is:
REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 15 March 2006.
(I’m not shouting, the original is in capitals. )

I believe the relevant info might be found in:

Article 26(4)
'Where a driver card is damaged, malfunctions, or is not in the possession of the driver, the driver shall:

(a) at the start of his journey, print out the details of the vehicle the driver is driving, and shall enter onto that printout:

(b) at the end of his journey, print out the information relating to periods of time recorded by the recording equipment, record any periods of other work, availability and rest undertaken since the printout that was made at the start of the journey, where not recorded by the tachograph, and mark on that document details that enable the driver to be identified (name, driver card or driver’s licence number), including the driver’s signature.’,

It’s the part I’ve made red that some people seem to miss.

The part in red seems to me to be the only occasions that a printout is actually required by the Regulations, so could anybody (including the police) please show us how or when a printout is legally required in any other circumstance.

This bit seems to be of interest too, and it appears just after Article 29:

This Regulation shall be binding in its entirety and directly applicable in all Member States.
Done at Strasbourg, 15 March 2006.

The above is available from the Eur-lex European law website in many official EU languages, and IMHO it might trump company policy, RHA warnings, drivers’ urban myths and other irrelevant stuff, because I don’t think judges look at any of those.

I’ve expressed no opinion, so please make of it what you will.

[coffeeholic]

DoYouMeanMe?:

But you wouldn’t always know you are going to be driving a digi. I don’t have any printouts in my possession, which is fine because I am not required to have any, and when I go into work at 03:45 today for a trip to Germany I expect to be driving my regular digi truck, the same one I’ve driven for each of my last 71 shifts. What happens if that truck is not available and I am given an analogue equipped vehicle? I’m supposed to not go on the trip because I don’t have printouts and the Belgians and Germans are making up the rules as they go along?

Then I bet you wouldn’t go anyway because all you kit was in the other truck that’s been stolen.

All my kit is right here beside me, 1 bag and a laptop case is all I need and I don’t leave it in the truck when I’m not driving it.

DoYouMeanMe?:
I agree, your right in your interpretation, but equally, the Bellend coppers are sure they are and I reckon it would take less time to print them out than argue.

The point is you may not have the opportunity to print them out. May be less time to print them out than argue but nowhere near as much fun.

[brit_pete]

have gone the easy way and sent a e-mail to ,enquiries@vosa.gov.uk
asking about the correct way as regards mixed driveing DIGITAL
and then TACHOGRAPH with disc, so perhaps WHEN?
they answer, i can post, the answer here,to settle the debate.

[doyoumeanme_1]

Good luck Pete. I asked them a question and got three different answers from 3 different people and I only asked the question once

There is no debate as to the law, we don’t need to carry the printouts. We have to carry the card and they should have the equipment to obtain a printout themselves.

However, they don’t and then turn the blame on us. At least that’s my interpretation.

Bugger, that’s what all the fuss is about, interpretation

[paul_midway]

paul@midway:
Why would you need a printout …You have the card , all they have to do is look at it … Thats sounds more like an excuse for “we haven’t got the equipment”

brit pete:
TRY telling that to the belgian traffic control
why because they will fine you for not haveing
a printout,why because they do not have enough machines

I knew it all along ,bloody belgians

[coffeeholic]

DoYouMeanMe?:
There is no debate as to the law, we don’t need to carry the printouts. We have to carry the card and they should have the equipment to obtain a printout themselves.

That’s it in a nutshell, they need to have the equipment to read the card not teh driver.

[doyoumeanme_1]

Trouble is that they won’t carry the equipment and it’s us that get the mucky end of the stick.

However, in a way, I quite admire the Belgian police. At least they are saying to the EU Dictators, “Screw you! You won’t tell us how to spend our budget”", where as the brits will shut 3 hospitals to fund the machines, but still manage to advertise for 17 gay, disabled outreach coordinators with an understanding of dyslexic diabetic single parent drug addict single parents with taurets…

[mike-c]

brit pete:
have gone the easy way and sent a e-mail to ,enquiries@vosa.gov.uk
asking about the correct way as regards mixed driveing DIGITAL
and then TACHOGRAPH with disc, so perhaps WHEN?
they answer, i can post, the answer here,to settle the debate.

Why have you done that Pete when its the Belgians/ Germans or whoever are doing the fining of drivers? Why not ask the Belgium or German counterparts?

[dieseldave]

Mike-C:
Why have you done that Pete when its the Belgians/ Germans or whoever are doing the fining of drivers? Why not ask the Belgium or German counterparts?

Blimey Mike-C, that’s one of the best points on this topic

The relevant authority in Germany is the B.A.G. Bundesamt für Güterkraftverkehr http://www.bag.bund.de or Bundes Autobahn Gestapo as lots of German drivers call it

Don’t ask me about Belgium though, cos they speak funny there.

[brit_pete]

okay good point, i will phone the BAG
and ask them,also try to get them to post
a reply if possible
as for the belgians sorry i am not fluent im
FLEMISH ;FRENCH; asthese are the two
languages one would have to use to converse
with the belgian traffic office, I sent it to the VOSA
as they are responsible for the UK,as the majority
of german firms do work the same way as my
firm,and we carry copys of a printout when we do
mixed driveing, and are driveing a tachograph
disc equipped vehicle and have previously
been driveing with the drivers card

ADDED INFORMATION 1220hrs,18th jan

HAVE JUST BEEN ON THE PHONEfirst the BAG
and then the ARBEITSSCHUTZ BURO (H&S)
the answer given --There is no requirement to carry
a printout,of your card when doing mixed driveing,
HOWEVER; they suggested that you can do either
of the following, Do a printout and carry it with you
to save haveing problems with those who interpret
the Law differently,
OR pay any fines given and get your soliciter
to take them to court and try to get your money back
hopefully■■?

[paul_midway]

It’s not really a case of interpreting the law differently , the law is the law and the law says you don’t have to carry printouts , unless for lost stolen card etc etc …
Does no-one in the Transport sector over there have the ■■■■■■■■ to contest it officialy and or legally and put it to bed ?

[coffeeholic]

brit pete:
ADDED INFORMATION 1220hrs,18th jan

HAVE JUST BEEN ON THE PHONEfirst the BAG and then the ARBEITSSCHUTZ BURO (H&S) the answer given --There is no requirement to carry a printout,of your card when doing mixed driveing, HOWEVER; they suggested that you can do either of the following, Do a printout and carry it with you to save haveing problems with those who interpret the Law differently, OR pay any fines given and get your soliciter to take them to court and try to get your money back hopefully■■?

OR, refuse to pay the fine until they back down, which they will have to do eventually as they have no legal basis to issue a fine. Seems like the BAG know what they are talking about so the solution in Germany is clear. Refuse to pay the fine until the police officer has telephoned the BAG, they will then tell him he is an idiot and you will be on your way, sorted.

[brit_pete]

PAUL its not a case of contesting the issue
ITS that this happened before as regards
other countrys interpretating the rules and regs
in a differnat way as laid down by the EU;
I have just replyed to a e-mail from VOSA
as they wished to know where i was liveing
I WROTE AND EXPLAINED that we are
discussing this problem on TRUCKNETUK
and we are waiting for their reply,so as soon
as they do give me a answer i will post it on here,

TO be honest the person i talked to
in GERMANY did say that
it is not correct what they do however,DO you
wish to advoid trouble or have problems
which can cause you to lose money and time
which no one can afford,

[dieseldave]

paul@midway:
Does no-one in the Transport sector over there have the ■■■■■■■■ to contest it officialy and or legally and put it to bed ?

Great idea Paul, but the legal systems in the various EU countries aren’t standardised yet.
For instance, the idea of on the spot fines is new here, but has been a reality in many EU countries for many many years.
In a number of these countries, the “fine” is actually a deposit. The system in some countries is that the case will come to court, where you may make representations and might end up with your deposit being returned, or the eventual fine ends up being less than the deposit. In other countries, you have the option of writing to the person, who will have another look at the case, and maybe return your deposit without bothering the Court. Of course, if you know that the police have you bang to rights, you pay the deposit, then that’s usually the end of it.

The point here is that the fine/deposit is being charged illegally. IMHO, your point about contesting it is very valid. If enough people did this correctly through the system, I feel that the authorities might issue the police with some “guidance.”

I’d really like to know what Article and Paragraph number of 561/2006 is written on the fine/deposit receipts, since the ones I’ve quoted above show that no offence has been commited…

[geebee45]

I can honestly say that I haven’t received Petes e-mail and I have no idea who has, hopefully a reply will be forthcoming soon.
In the meantime, from somebody who has worked in the ‘dark world’ of matters digital since early 2005;

There is no requirement (under normal circumstances) for drivers to carry printout of their ‘digital days’ when they are driving vehicles fitted with analogue tachos.

The circumstances when you do need to have printouts are;

• Your card is not in your possession; taken to mean lost or stolen
• Your card has malfunctioned
• Your card has been damaged

In these circumstances you must report the matter to the ‘Competent Authority’ who issued your card (this is DVLA in the UK) within7 calendar days of discovering the loss, theft etc.
You may continue to drive a digital equipped vehicle in these circumstances for 15 calendar days (or longer if necessary, to get back to base). You have to take a VU 24hr printout at the start of your shift and write on it your full name and either your driver card number or your driver licence number and sign the printout. At the end of your shift take a second 24hr VU printout write your details on it and sign it. Logic suggests that if you change vehicles before the end of your shift you take a printout before leaving the first vehicle. Also if your shift crosses Midnight you should take a printout for the part prior to Midnight and one at the end of your shift the following day. You cannot keep records of driving / other work by printouts if you have never had a card issued to you, unless you are resident in an AETR country.

There are two other reasons for making printout;
You are held up in an unforeseen delay and go over your driving time. When you get to the first available safe parking you must take a printout (24 hr card, assuming you are using you card ) and write on the printout the reason for the delay If you have taken this type of printout or one of those listed above you must be able to produce them in the ‘production period’ current day and previous 28.
If you are driving a digital equipped vehicle and a Controller (VOSA, BAG, Police etc) requests you to print records, you should have sufficient paper to ensure that the requested records may be printed.

The confusion with all this came from the very early days of Council Regulation (EC) 2135/98 which indicated that printouts should be produced for digital days when driving analogue vehicles. A decision by MIDT (the coordinating body overseeing the introduction of digital tachos) decided that this was only logical for the reasons mentioned earlier. This section of 2135/98 was repealed on 01/05/2006 when Council Regulation 561/2006 came into force. The basic reasoning being that the digital records are held on the card. If the Member State does not wish to equip it’s Controllers with equipment to read cards. that is not the responsibility of the Commission nor the drivers.

[doyoumeanme_1]

So…If we can just tranlate the above into Flemmish everything will be a lot easier.