Use of secondary brakes

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
21

Juddian:
Jake, i doubt training companies have the time to instill retarder only means of reducing speed into their charges, they may well have the exhaust set to automatic operation when the brakes are applied (which helps the long life of their vehicle as well) but i would be surprised if a trainee was taught to apply the automatic retarder itself (as opposed to it coming on when brake pedal applied) to aid slowing as good driving practice.

Certainly the DCPC trainer i encountered made a point of explaining how he teaches new drivers BTSGTG, my example to him after the umpteenth mention of his technique of the new driver he taught being handed a full weight tipper in the Derbyshire Dales utilising that method had him stumped (he trotted out some ■■■■■■■■ about Stobbies training their own new starters, whatever that might have to do with the price of fish), that tipper incident at Bath not so long provides a perfect example of a lad having not the first clue about preserving brakes by proper gear/engine speed/retarder matching to keep the vehicle under control without cooking the brakes constantly because he simply wasn’t taught to drive a piggin lorry…my old trainer, a chap who incidentally won lorry driver of the year three times before taking up instructing, would have had a blue fit if you used the brakes alone without going down through the gears at appropriate engine revs.

I am not disagreeing with you that it should not be taught I am merely saying that in 20 years of training I very rarely heard of LGV instructors teaching gears to go brakes to slow. I am still in touch with a couple of training establishments and have personal friends who are still instructors and they would never dream of teaching that to any new driver.

Regarding the Bath tipper incident we don’t know all the circumstances and it may well have been he was taught incorrectly or as I am sure you know a lot of drivers ignore what they are taught during training and revert to what they think is correct. How often does that happen compared to the numbers trained though.

Certainly training has changed through the years and as with most things has probably gone downhill and I am sure with most drivers being trained on auto’s there will be more changes.
I know a guy who works for a training company and they only have one manual training vehicle left and nobody wants it. Drivers or instructors!

22

Unless the trainee is going to be made to drive in manual mode, or made to engage the exhaust brake without touching the brakes to reduce speed, its difficult to see how any method of driving other than GTGBTS can possibly be practically taught in an auto.

23

jakethesnake:

Juddian:
Jake, i doubt training companies have the time to instill retarder only means of reducing speed into their charges, they may well have the exhaust set to automatic operation when the brakes are applied (which helps the long life of their vehicle as well) but i would be surprised if a trainee was taught to apply the automatic retarder itself (as opposed to it coming on when brake pedal applied) to aid slowing as good driving practice.

Certainly the DCPC trainer i encountered made a point of explaining how he teaches new drivers BTSGTG, my example to him after the umpteenth mention of his technique of the new driver he taught being handed a full weight tipper in the Derbyshire Dales utilising that method had him stumped (he trotted out some ■■■■■■■■ about Stobbies training their own new starters, whatever that might have to do with the price of fish), that tipper incident at Bath not so long provides a perfect example of a lad having not the first clue about preserving brakes by proper gear/engine speed/retarder matching to keep the vehicle under control without cooking the brakes constantly because he simply wasn’t taught to drive a piggin lorry…my old trainer, a chap who incidentally won lorry driver of the year three times before taking up instructing, would have had a blue fit if you used the brakes alone without going down through the gears at appropriate engine revs.

I am not disagreeing with you that it should not be taught I am merely saying that in 20 years of training I very rarely heard of LGV instructors teaching gears to go brakes to slow. I am still in touch with a couple of training establishments and have personal friends who are still instructors and they would never dream of teaching that to any new driver.

Regarding the Bath tipper incident we don’t know all the circumstances and it may well have been he was taught incorrectly or as I am sure you know a lot of drivers ignore what they are taught during training and revert to what they think is correct. How often does that happen compared to the numbers trained though.

Certainly training has changed through the years and as with most things has probably gone downhill and I am sure with most drivers being trained on auto’s there will be more changes.
I know a guy who works for a training company and they only have one manual training vehicle left and nobody wants it. Drivers or instructors!

You’ll find all the information on here if the search function would work.
We’ve had pages of arguments with ROG who produced the government’s own driving standards requirements which sprecifically state no down shifts on the approach.He actually stated that they expect the exhaust brake to be used in the high gear it’s left in and it will obviously lose its effectiveness as it slows in the high gear it’s left in.They really think that’s the correct way to use an exhaust brake. :unamused:
Now they’ve gone one better in saying that a manual car licence pass will do just take the LGV test in an auto truck. :unamused:

The whole thing is an obvious can of worms deliberately designed to degrade the the required skill set so as to create the maximum supply of cheap fake ‘drivers’.

As for modern autos I think I shift at least auto downshifts on the approach in an overrun situation to maximise engine braking in a similar way that a ‘proper’ driver would.As would probably be expected to get acceptance of the American way and thereby contradicts the stupid dumbed down British establishment’s demands.
In addition to the fact that Constant Mesh transmissions don’t like to be block changed in the typical stupid brakes to slow gears to go fashion.

24

who produced the government’s own driving standards requirements which sprecifically state no down shifts on the approach

I would love to see that in black and white or Rog confirm it’s true. Surely bloody not. :unamused:

I know this happens in car training but never ever heard of any lorry training done that way ffs

25

jakethesnake:
who produced the government’s own driving standards requirements which sprecifically state no down shifts on the approach

I would love to see that in black and white or Rog confirm it’s true. Surely bloody not. :unamused:

I know this happens in car training but never ever heard of any lorry training done that way ffs

Thats exactly what that DCPC bod i disagreed with was advocating, stay in high gear using brakes to slow then at the last moment select an appropiate gear to continue, goes without saying you’d have to dip the clutch and coast at some point or the poor gearbox would be trying to climb out the chassis when the engine got down to 200rpm in top at when nearly stopped.

26

jakethesnake:
who produced the government’s own driving standards requirements which sprecifically state no down shifts on the approach

I would love to see that in black and white or Rog confirm it’s true. Surely bloody not. :unamused:

I know this happens in car training but never ever heard of any lorry training done that way ffs

Question 3.The resulting argument escalated from that point. :wink: It has also run on across other topics like the Bath crash.
I’m sure that ROG actually produced Government literature to back his answer.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51247&start=30#p590607

So they know the exhaust brake only works properly with plenty of revs but they won’t let you downshift on the approach to maintain them.

Then they say dip the clutch and coast to prevent the engine tearing itself from its mountings when being braked to a crawl in top gear.

They couldn’t make it up.

27

I don’t know what to say other than the worlds gone nuts. I can just about understand why it would be easier to train that way from an instructors point of view on an unladen vehicle but to go onto a fully laden vehicle and drive in that manner is surely sheer stupidity. Now I know brakes have vastly improved over the years but are they capable of handling a driver using that technique?
I don’t for sure but my instinct would say no.
I know this method of gears to go and brakes to slow in not commonly used throughout LGV training but would love to understand why some think it’s progression?
At the end of the day with vehicles mainly being auto’s now maybe that partly answers the question. :exclamation:

28

villa:
stopped using the exhaust brake because if takes you out the green and into the blue on the rev thing and when they do your performance figures it looks as if you have been doing too much harsh accelerating even though you haven’t and also they say your fuel economy is bad and your using too much

A telematics system that’s worth having will know the difference between over revving with the foot planted on the accelerator pedal and high revs for engine braking.

29

DickyNick:

villa:
stopped using the exhaust brake because if takes you out the green and into the blue on the rev thing and when they do your performance figures it looks as if you have been doing too much harsh accelerating even though you haven’t and also they say your fuel economy is bad and your using too much

A telematics system that’s worth having will know the difference between over revving with the foot planted on the accelerator pedal and high revs for engine braking.

People knock Mercs fleetboard but it doesn’t knock points off the score with use of the retarder…

30

Brakes to slow, gears to go wasnt taught when I was learning either in a car or a lorry, the gear changing exercise was a big part of the test, 1 through to 8 and back down to 1. They didnt expect you to use the splitter or two speed axle on the driving test. Then with the car, if you passed in an automatic, that is all you could drive.

What happened was driver agencies and SAFED, companies wanted a phone number they could ring to replace a driver, they didnt want to train them in their own vehicles, pay them to go out out with the trainer.

Automatic gearboxes were developed with kick down, manual selection, and overide. The companies got the dealers to disconnect all this new fangled technology, CPC tuition taught the driver everything the new boys had written on a notepad whilst drumming into your head about fuel consumption, its not your job to worry about how much it costs to reline the lorry, you are paid to drive it at 56 mph for 9.58 minutes then stop.

Remember this from 2016

newmercman:
I’m shocked to read about companies that have locked out a number of the features on lorries, I can understand why they do it though and although I understand it, I most certainly do not agree with it.

It’s all about a lack of training. The biggest factor in economical driving is the man behind the wheel, a good driver can be up to 30% better than a bad driver and companies are trying to make every driver achieve the results that a good driver can.

With the way companies are using agency staff to fill the seats, training is not an option. Now how on earth does that make sense? Not only are they paying a percentage to the parasites that are agencies, but they’re also having to adapt their lorries to suit the every Tom, ■■■■ or Harry that turns up to drive them.

If you ask me, the industry has gone mad. Even the drivers that do take pride in doing a good job will be unable to do anything but hold the steering wheel in the future.

Newmercman is out of it, he would be shocked to see where its ended up.

31

jakethesnake:
I don’t know what to say other than the worlds gone nuts. I can just about understand why it would be easier to train that way from an instructors point of view on an unladen vehicle but to go onto a fully laden vehicle and drive in that manner is surely sheer stupidity. Now I know brakes have vastly improved over the years but are they capable of handling a driver using that technique?
I don’t for sure but my instinct would say no.
I know this method of gears to go and brakes to slow in not commonly used throughout LGV training but would love to understand why some think it’s progression?
At the end of the day with vehicles mainly being auto’s now maybe that partly answers the question. :exclamation:

I don’t think you could find any evidence of anything other than brakes to slow gears to go being the default in all cases.Can’t find any evidence anywhere of anything being driven like this auto or manual.

youtube.com/watch?v=8hKKzOHRTPY 0.58 - 1.21 2.08 - 2.29

v this training vid.In which I’m shouting at the screen downshift the zb thing properly on the approach.Credit where it’s due at least he’s gone for manual training.

youtube.com/watch?v=xZnCvcM3ipM

32

I driveth a manual box. So i just dropeth a gear and gently lift said clutcheth and tepaeat until i feel ready to accelerate again. When going down steep hills i just dip clutcheth and let roll.

If im in auto pilot and about to miss a junction i slam anchors on and turn quickly. Although it rarely happens as watching some movie or intersting video on my phone keeps me awake.

33

Wheel Nut:
Newmercman is out of it, he would be shocked to see where its ended up.

Not seen any posts from him for a while ?.

34

Carryfast:
Drivers are actually taught on the principle of brakes to slow gears to go.
Which totally contradicts the use of engine brakes because they are totally reliant on the use of the principle of gears to slow for them to be able to work.

Throw blind auto transmissions into the mix then all bets are off anyway.It’s anyone’s guess how the thing will approach a hazard.

Carryfasts latest obsession- ‘blind’ automatics… and surprise surprise he has NEVER driven an automatic truck. Fancy that eh?

35

Exhaust brakes are an old fashioned waste of space, not bothered with them for years. But then I am lucky enough to have always been in trucks with retarders the past few years, and I make extensive use of them, either automatically when they can be set to hold it at a certain speed or manually with the stalk on steering column. When it comes to modern trucks brake fade is generally a thing of the past anyway

36

switchlogic:

Carryfast:
Drivers are actually taught on the principle of brakes to slow gears to go.
Which totally contradicts the use of engine brakes because they are totally reliant on the use of the principle of gears to slow for them to be able to work.

Throw blind auto transmissions into the mix then all bets are off anyway.It’s anyone’s guess how the thing will approach a hazard.

Carryfasts latest obsession- ‘blind’ automatics… and surprise surprise he has NEVER driven an automatic truck. Fancy that eh?

Apologies I just ‘thought’ they had no eyes to see what is ahead of them you obviously don’t agree.Should have known better never having driven a truck with one. :laughing:
So back to the thorny long running issue of brakes to slow gears to go that applies whether auto or manual.

37

When did you last drive a truck Carry old fruit and what was it? As I’ve a sneaking suspicion that modern trucks are dramatically different to anything you’ve driven :smiley: Do you still have a licence as I’m sure we could get you a spin in a modern truck. Something like a dual clutch FH16 iShift, not that I imagine you’d go into such a thing with anything approaching an open mind :smiley:

38

switchlogic:
When did you last drive a truck Carry old fruit and what was it? As I’ve a sneaking suspicion that modern trucks are dramatically different to anything you’ve driven :smiley: Do you still have a licence as I’m sure we could get you a spin in a modern truck. Something like a dual clutch FH16 iShift, not that I imagine you’d go into such a thing with anything approaching an open mind :smiley:

1992/3 Merc 2534 Powerliner last truck I drove before the turn of the century.One of the rare ones specced with a manual shift not EPS. :wink:
Did drive an EPS once on a driving assessment and told the assessor what I thought of it and he …agreed with me and offered me a job. As you know that offer turned to zb.
I shift fine by me if the thing can downshift and rev match its shifts properly on the approach on the basis of gears to slow manual or auto.Bonus points if it’s a proper Scandinavian drawbar outfit none of this Brit/Euro artic crap.I’ll book the medical for next week if you can fix the rest. :smiley:

39

switchlogic:
When did you last drive a truck Carry old fruit and what was it? As I’ve a sneaking suspicion that modern trucks are dramatically different to anything you’ve driven :smiley: Do you still have a licence as I’m sure we could get you a spin in a modern truck. Something like a dual clutch FH16 iShift, not that I imagine you’d go into such a thing with anything approaching an open mind :smiley:

Is that an offer to C-F?
Is that a pitch for a TV series?
Look here Luke, I sure hope you get back on the road yourself, but offering to ride shotgun with Carryfast sounds like a desperate way to get some kliks under the wheels again!
Mind you…seeing Mr C-F in person, hitting the Auto…Routes/Bahns/Stradas/Pistas in a top’o’t’range modern outfit would generate a big audience.

40

Franglais:

switchlogic:
When did you last drive a truck Carry old fruit and what was it? As I’ve a sneaking suspicion that modern trucks are dramatically different to anything you’ve driven :smiley: Do you still have a licence as I’m sure we could get you a spin in a modern truck. Something like a dual clutch FH16 iShift, not that I imagine you’d go into such a thing with anything approaching an open mind :smiley:

Is that an offer to C-F?
Is that a pitch for a TV series?
Look here Luke, I sure hope you get back on the road yourself, but offering to ride shotgun with Carryfast sounds like a desperate way to get some kliks under the wheels again!
Mind you…seeing Mr C-F in person, hitting the Auto…Routes/Bahns/Stradas/Pistas in a top’o’t’range modern outfit would generate a big audience.

Oh I never said I’d go with him! That could be a step too far! For both of us :smiley: