Throwing The Towel In

[dunlopc]

Steve H:

Harry Monk:
Surely, since you will have to lay the drivers off if you surrender your O licence, you could just lay them off anyway and wait for the licence to expire and not renew it?

Thats something I hadn’t thought of. Expiry date is April 2019.

It’s my understanding that as a holder of a GVOL I must have acess to at least one vehicle in circulation. I’m guessing a “Hire” vehicle would suffice should I need access to a vehicle??

With regards to the drivers, lets just say we would be parting company so that I could concentrate on my workshop activities.

Verbal Written Final Written Dismissal is all well and good, but I genuinely cannot face another round of recruitment. These issues have become progressively worse over the last 18 months and the standard of applicant coming through the door is now an embarresment. People turn up here for an interview with half their dinner spilt down a t shirt that looks like it last seen the washing machine in 2004, absolutely stinking with an atitude to match. Where has the pride gone?

I am more than fair with driving staff. We pay what i beleive to be a good salary. (our highest earner last year was just shy of £39,000) We provide everything needed to do the job, including clothing boots etc… I dont take half a days annual leave off them when they have to see the dentist or have some other appointment. We have an in house CPC trainer and take care of the requirment FOC. I just can’t see how much else I can do for these people without spoon feeding them dinner of an evening as well!!!

It is a real shame, I love the transport industry, I travelled around europe with my father many years ago in the school holidays in a variety of different motors, including a 1987 112m and a variety of FH Volvo’s. I used to love going back to school and hearing how all the other kids had been to butlins and i’d been in Stockholm with Dad craning computer frames through a 4th floor window because they wouldn’t fit in a lift!!

I’ve met some great people over the years, and worked with some even better people, but the “old school” generation like Ken posting further back in this thread are a breed which are almost extinct.

I know i’m not alone with these issues and they are spread far and wide. Maybe in my old age I am starting to beleive that people are motivated purely by self interest and that every other poor sod can whistle!!

Beetlejuice:
Sack the fools

Best suggestion by far!!!

It frustrates me reading this as it seems you have pretty good operation going.

I think it’s a society thing now. People have no accountability and think there entitled to everything. I’m not going to pretend I’m perfect but if I ever had a ding or a scrape I always payed it out my own pocket as the guy that gave me my start was a one truck owner operator.

As everyone says of coarse the simple action would be to ditch them. But as someone mentioned would it be worth getting local lad that’s keen, train them up to your standard and gain some pride in working for you. Taking care of the lorry and a good advertisement for the business. If people see one or two like this, maybe that will attract a better quality of driver

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[steve_h]

It frustrates me reading this as it seems you have pretty good operation going.

I think it’s a society thing now. People have no accountability and think there entitled to everything. I’m not going to pretend I’m perfect but if I ever had a ding or a scrape I always payed it out my own pocket as the guy that gave me my start was a one truck owner operator.

As everyone says of coarse the simple action would be to ditch them. But as someone mentioned would it be worth getting local lad that’s keen, train them up to your standard and gain some pride in working for you. Taking care of the lorry and a good advertisement for the business. If people see one or two like this, maybe that will attract a better quality of driver

I never asked or expected anyone to be perfect. That is the whole point and you make it very well. I’ve never taken a penny off anyone for damage caused, all I ever asked was for people to be honest, and to make sure they went out on the road legally. Seems they can’t even manage that.

Accountability & pride are personality traits developed from a young age. I tend to think that what we see now as employers is the result of an education system that is failing, a society that is built on benefits and a general sense of entitlement.

As said earlier in the thread, I have one youngster that is above average and enjoys the job, there just aren’t enough of them to cherry pick from and build a team that is above average in terms of ability and accountability.

I think unfortunately for me, it is time to admit defeat!!

[albion]

I’m with dunlopc, I’m finding it frustrating. Sounds like good Ts and Cs, decent pay, someone running legal and yet you have serious driver issues.

is there 1or 2 that are ring leaders and the others follow suit? I’ve had times when a single driver has caused more trouble than you could imagine. Only thing to do is get rid and pronto.

I’m finding the opposite with staff. I’ve got young and old and they are a good bunch, not perfect but neither am I. But nothing like the problems you are having.

Really it does sound like one of two things, either where you are there’s a lot of competition for jobs and there’s something we aren’t seeing that’s unappealing about the job or , and I don’t mean this rudely, you are not managing. To say my management style is easy going is an understatement, but on the other hand they know that I wouldn’t be having any messing on hours, defects, turning in late.

I’m certainly not going to dissuade you, this job can be a fast track to a heart attack and I defy anyone when they see a major incident not to shudder and think could that have been me? However something is off kilter in that we run legit, supply uniform, run legal, pay decent and yet find we have got a good set of lads and our experience is a polar opposite. There’s something I’m just not understanding.

[steve_h]

albion:
I’m with dunlopc, I’m finding it frustrating. Sounds like good Ts and Cs, decent pay, someone running legal and yet you have serious driver issues.

is there 1or 2 that are ring leaders and the others follow suit? I’ve had times when a single driver has caused more trouble than you could imagine. Only thing to do is get rid and pronto.

I’m finding the opposite with staff. I’ve got young and old and they are a good bunch, not perfect but neither am I. But nothing like the problems you are having.

Really it does sound like one of two things, either where you are there’s a lot of competition for jobs and there’s something we aren’t seeing that’s unappealing about the job or , and I don’t mean this rudely, you are not managing. To say my management style is easy going is an understatement, but on the other hand they know that I wouldn’t be having any messing on hours, defects, turning in late.

I’m certainly not going to dissuade you, this job can be a fast track to a heart attack and I defy anyone when they see a major incident not to shudder and think could that have been me? However something is off kilter in that we run legit, supply uniform, run legal, pay decent and yet find we have got a good set of lads and our experience is a polar opposite. There’s something I’m just not understanding.

I have tried many different management styles over the years. Laid back, easy going, letting them get on with the job, and then tried the total opposite and been a complete arse to them. Neither has worked. I have been down the disciplinary route, the informal chat route, literally everything you can imagine.

You are right in what you say, there are a lot of operators where we are and competition is fierce in the job market, but I would say we are at the top end for T’s & C’s out of the lot, and operate some modern kit with a 24 hour workshop on site.

I don’t think you are being rude at all, far from it. I’m starting to think that the problem may be that they have “got away” with it for so long that they just carry on doing it. I feel like we are scraping the barrel with staff at the moment with the exception of the two good lads that we have on, who I must give credit to, they are spot on. Defects, downloads, arriving on time and getting the job done with no fuss. That is what is ■■■■■■■ me off more than anything else, these people CAN do the job, it appears that they choose not to.

Just feels like I have tried everything and I don’t know how to fix it, I fear that the only way forward is to surrender the licence and concentrate on the workshop side of the business/external maintenance, I am in the posiiton where I beleive it cannot be staffed with people of the correct calibre.

On a side note, about 18 months ago, my idea was to take on a TM so that I could concentrate on other business activities and let the management of the transport side of the business be handed off to someone else. Lets just say that ended in disaster when during a meeting regarding compliance, he was sat on his laptop booking legoland tickets for his family! Don’t get me wrong, I understand people have things to arrange and lives to lead away from work, but jesus, do that in your lunch hour!!! Needless to say we parted company after that and several other eye-brow raising “incidents” which I shall save for another day.

I don’t think there is anything overly complicated about the job. Perhaps the 4 on 3 off shift pattern puts people off, but then if you don’t like the shift pattern discussed at interview, why take the position ■■

[quinny]

Steve H:
I’ve met some great people over the years, and worked with some even better people, but the “old school” generation like Ken posting further back in this thread are a breed which are almost extinct.

And I stand by what I say.

I don’t need hand holding at my age. If there is a problem, I will sort it to the best of my ability. If I can keep the customer happy (And the boss.) by not bothering the office, then so be it. I only need to get the office involved if it is above my head, or I feel it is.

It also has to be said that a lot of companies, and I have worked for some of them, take the responsibility away from the driver. Maybe that is why we as an industry are in the state we are in.

But when it comes down to basic compliance with the law, I am 100% on the mark with it. I look at it this way, if you get pulled for not doing your job, then you deserve what is coming to you, but it is unfair to expect your boss to get rogered for your shortcomings when he has provided the means to keep you, and himself, on the right side of the law. You therefore don’t deserve to have that kind of boss.

Ken.

(PS. £39k? I don’t get out of bed for less than £45k…net. )

[albion]

Where are you Steve? We have depots in Manchester and Herts. TM you were unlucky there, I’ve had OK ones, got one that is outstanding at the moment, dont think he’s going anywhere -,I’d probably give in if he did, he’s an ex driver, so that helps IMO.

I don’t think it’s the 4 on 3 off, job is so varied that what doesn’t suit one, suits another. Double man, Euro, we don’t do bling top spec trucks either, so a lot of drivers would find us unappealing.

[milesahead]

Steve H:

Harry Monk:
Surely, since you will have to lay the drivers off if you surrender your O licence, you could just lay them off anyway and wait for the licence to expire and not renew it?

Thats something I hadn’t thought of. Expiry date is April 2019.

It’s my understanding that as a holder of a GVOL I must have acess to at least one vehicle in circulation. I’m guessing a “Hire” vehicle would suffice should I need access to a vehicle??

With regards to the drivers, lets just say we would be parting company so that I could concentrate on my workshop activities.

Verbal Written Final Written Dismissal is all well and good, but I genuinely cannot face another round of recruitment. These issues have become progressively worse over the last 18 months and the standard of applicant coming through the door is now an embarresment. People turn up here for an interview with half their dinner spilt down a t shirt that looks like it last seen the washing machine in 2004, absolutely stinking with an atitude to match. Where has the pride gone?

I am more than fair with driving staff. We pay what i beleive to be a good salary. (our highest earner last year was just shy of £39,000) We provide everything needed to do the job, including clothing boots etc… I dont take half a days annual leave off them when they have to see the dentist or have some other appointment. We have an in house CPC trainer and take care of the requirment FOC. I just can’t see how much else I can do for these people without spoon feeding them dinner of an evening as well!!!

It is a real shame, I love the transport industry, I travelled around europe with my father many years ago in the school holidays in a variety of different motors, including a 1987 112m and a variety of FH Volvo’s. I used to love going back to school and hearing how all the other kids had been to butlins and i’d been in Stockholm with Dad craning computer frames through a 4th floor window because they wouldn’t fit in a lift!!

I’ve met some great people over the years, and worked with some even better people, but the “old school” generation like Ken posting further back in this thread are a breed which are almost extinct.

I know i’m not alone with these issues and they are spread far and wide. Maybe in my old age I am starting to beleive that people are motivated purely by self interest and that every other poor sod can whistle!!

Beetlejuice:
Sack the fools

Best suggestion by far!!!

I Can’t believe that operators have issues with sacking bad staff and finding new. I’m new in this industry and reading all you are telling about your company it sounds like it would be a great place to work for many decent people, but as I sad I’m new so might be wrong.

[punchy_dan]

Steve if you have a 24 hr workshop then why not get the fitter going round each lorry before it leaves the yard or as they come in ?

[big_truck]

albion:
Where are you Steve? We have depots in Manchester and Herts. TM you were unlucky there, I’ve had OK ones, got one that is outstanding at the moment, dont think he’s going anywhere -,I’d probably give in if he did, he’s an ex driver, so that helps IMO.

I don’t think it’s the 4 on 3 off, job is so varied that what doesn’t suit one, suits another. Double man, Euro, we don’t do bling top spec trucks either, so a lot of drivers would find us unappealing.

You could make him an offer Albion!!![emoji4][emoji6][emoji847][emoji848]

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[kcrussell25]

Steve H:

Harry Monk:
Surely, since you will have to lay the drivers off if you surrender your O licence, you could just lay them off anyway and wait for the licence to expire and not renew it?

Thats something I hadn’t thought of. Expiry date is April 2019.

It’s my understanding that as a holder of a GVOL I must have acess to at least one vehicle in circulation. I’m guessing a “Hire” vehicle would suffice should I need access to a vehicle??

With regards to the drivers, lets just say we would be parting company so that I could concentrate on my workshop activities.

Verbal Written Final Written Dismissal is all well and good, but I genuinely cannot face another round of recruitment. These issues have become progressively worse over the last 18 months and the standard of applicant coming through the door is now an embarresment. People turn up here for an interview with half their dinner spilt down a t shirt that looks like it last seen the washing machine in 2004, absolutely stinking with an atitude to match. Where has the pride gone?

I am more than fair with driving staff. We pay what i beleive to be a good salary. (our highest earner last year was just shy of £39,000) We provide everything needed to do the job, including clothing boots etc… I dont take half a days annual leave off them when they have to see the dentist or have some other appointment. We have an in house CPC trainer and take care of the requirment FOC. I just can’t see how much else I can do for these people without spoon feeding them dinner of an evening as well!!!

It is a real shame, I love the transport industry, I travelled around europe with my father many years ago in the school holidays in a variety of different motors, including a 1987 112m and a variety of FH Volvo’s. I used to love going back to school and hearing how all the other kids had been to butlins and i’d been in Stockholm with Dad craning computer frames through a 4th floor window because they wouldn’t fit in a lift!!

I’ve met some great people over the years, and worked with some even better people, but the “old school” generation like Ken posting further back in this thread are a breed which are almost extinct.

I know i’m not alone with these issues and they are spread far and wide. Maybe in my old age I am starting to beleive that people are motivated purely by self interest and that every other poor sod can whistle!!

Beetlejuice:
Sack the fools

Best suggestion by far!!!

I agree that beetlejuice has the right idea.

Sack them and start again!

I would suggest you consider new passes as then there are no preconceived ideas and they will do it how shown. That was what 1 place said to me when I was looking after first passing my test.

[own_account_driver]

My advice would be look the part ie drive a bosses type car, wear a suit, stay in your large separate office, do not associate with drivers. Ignore all the crap people talk about ‘the best boss I ever had mucked in and was like one of us’ it’s basically a wolf pack scenario and you’ve got to establish yourself as leader some people can do it by force of personality but if that doesn’t suit that’s where the car/status symbols/keeping aloof comes in.

Then get a TM to manage the drivers by poaching one from somewhere else by offering them more money, don’t employ the first person who comes through the door with a CPC. Have either him or someone else do the recruitment and keep hiring and firing until you get a good team. It will reach a tipping point as well where oddly the tracky bottom brigade seem to sort of realise it’s not their type of place any more and slope off somewhere else/don’t even apply on their own. Don’t overlook women to manage them but not lady muck types more salt of the earth battleaxes they can be very effective as doing a walkaround properly will soon become preferable to an earful.

[dunlopc]

albion:
I’m with dunlopc, I’m finding it frustrating. Sounds like good Ts and Cs, decent pay, someone running legal and yet you have serious driver issues.

is there 1or 2 that are ring leaders and the others follow suit? I’ve had times when a single driver has caused more trouble than you could imagine. Only thing to do is get rid and pronto.

I’m finding the opposite with staff. I’ve got young and old and they are a good bunch, not perfect but neither am I. But nothing like the problems you are having.

Really it does sound like one of two things, either where you are there’s a lot of competition for jobs and there’s something we aren’t seeing that’s unappealing about the job or , and I don’t mean this rudely, you are not managing. To say my management style is easy going is an understatement, but on the other hand they know that I wouldn’t be having any messing on hours, defects, turning in late.

I’m certainly not going to dissuade you, this job can be a fast track to a heart attack and I defy anyone when they see a major incident not to shudder and think could that have been me? However something is off kilter in that we run legit, supply uniform, run legal, pay decent and yet find we have got a good set of lads and our experience is a polar opposite. There’s something I’m just not understanding.

As Albion says with experience ive found the same thing there’s usually a ring leader dragging the rest down. Once you cut out/fire the problem things usually things settle down.

The only things from experience I’ve found usually stems from:

Pressures imposed by management to keep the trucks rolling

Attitude/reaction when drivers report defects.

Possibly even your workshop staff giving the drivers grief for giving them more work load.

Lack of knowledge.

I’m a great believer of getting new drivers into the workshop understanding the mechanics involved and teaching them skills on carrying out small repairs. Maybe this might inspire them

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[albion]

Big Truck:

albion:
Where are you Steve? We have depots in Manchester and Herts. TM you were unlucky there, I’ve had OK ones, got one that is outstanding at the moment, dont think he’s going anywhere -,I’d probably give in if he did, he’s an ex driver, so that helps IMO.

I don’t think it’s the 4 on 3 off, job is so varied that what doesn’t suit one, suits another. Double man, Euro, we don’t do bling top spec trucks either, so a lot of drivers would find us unappealing.

You could make him an offer Albion!!![emoji4][emoji6][emoji847][emoji848]

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What, go and lay the law down with his drivers , Abion way or the highway

[steve_h]

Own Account Driver:
My advice would be look the part ie drive a bosses type car, wear a suit, stay in your large separate office, do not associate with drivers. Ignore all the crap people talk about ‘the best boss I ever had mucked in and was like one of us’ it’s basically a wolf pack scenario and you’ve got to establish yourself as leader some people can do it by force of personality but if that doesn’t suit that’s where the car/status symbols/keeping aloof comes in.

Then get a TM to manage the drivers by poaching one from somewhere else by offering them more money, don’t employ the first person who comes through the door with a CPC. Have either him or someone else do the recruitment and keep hiring and firing until you get a good team. It will reach a tipping point as well where oddly the tracky bottom brigade seem to sort of realise it’s not their type of place any more and slope off somewhere else/don’t even apply on their own. Don’t overlook women to manage them but not lady muck types more salt of the earth battleaxes they can be very effective as doing a walkaround properly will soon become preferable to an earful.

The whole Range Rover and suit thing is just not me. I am a hands dirty get stuck in kind of guy. Perhaps you are correct in what you say, it is too “matey” and there needs to be a line drawn.

With regards to TM’s - I interviewed several, legoland man was the best of the bunch on paper and at interview. Sadly he was blown wide open when in the thick of it and I guess just lost interest.

On the subject of battleaxes…

battleaxe
ˈbat(ə)laks/
noun
noun: battleaxe; plural noun: battleaxes; noun: battleax; noun: battle-axe; plural noun: battle-axes; noun: battle-ax

a large broad-bladed axe used in ancient warfare.
synonyms: poleaxe, axe, pike, halberd, tomahawk, war mattock, mace
“a severe blow from a battleaxe”
2.
informal
a formidably aggressive older woman.

Have you met my wife?

I’m pretty sure I know who the trouble-makers are. I may well wheel them in after the break and send them up the road. Services no longer required kind of deal. I have until tuesday to think about it anyway!!!

[dunlopc]

Own Account Driver:
My advice would be look the part ie drive a bosses type car, wear a suit, stay in your large separate office, do not associate with drivers. Ignore all the crap people talk about ‘the best boss I ever had mucked in and was like one of us’ it’s basically a wolf pack scenario and you’ve got to establish yourself as leader some people can do it by force of personality but if that doesn’t suit that’s where the car/status symbols/keeping aloof comes in.
.

I don’t agree with the first part. I think you get more respect when your employees see you whipping on the boiler suit and getting stuck in. My father was a director of an electrical firm and would drive around in a brand new BMW but the boot was full of tools and drain rods. The apprentices would look in disbelief as they thought this was beneath as he was going on jobs unblocking toilets and drains. Didn’t tell them he was making a fortune doing it. Everyone tells me they had a hell of a respect for him as he had no fear in getting stuck in so they worked 110% in return. As they say lead by example

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[dieseldave]

Steve H:
… Before anyone comments regarding disciplinary hearings for staff and other options open to me, beleive me when I say other options have been explored. I am done Curious as to the most pain free way out!!!

Hi Steve,

I’m sorry to hear of your plight, but rather than verbal warning, written warning etc, etc I think there’s a more direct route for you.

It starts by imagining that you’re hauled in for a PI, then the TC tells you that you’re trusted to run a legit operation and all the other stuff that you’re doubtless aware of.

Take that back to your office, and dish it out similarly as cascaded information, but with a slight difference.

Write a procedure that covers what you expect your employees to do.

Report for work, clock-on/book in/insert tacho card (as applicable,) then spend X amount of time doing the following checks: a)… b)… c)…d)… etc and sign the sheet (that you will provide = nil defect reporting.)

Bring each driver in, whilst making sure that a union rep/his mate is with him to act as a witness… read the whole thing aloud in front of both of them, then give the driver a photocopy copy of what you’ve just made and get him to sign and date it to acknowledge it… (along with the witness signing and dating it. )

Hand the photocopy to the driver whilst telling him that the original containing the signatures is going in his personnel file and might be needed by the TC at some future point.

There’s now a matter of properly acknowledged trust between you and that driver, as witnessed by the union rep/his mate.

If he subsequently breaches your trust to do legally required things as well as company policy as set out in the document, it meets the definition of gross misconduct pure and simple with the outcome known and expected by all.

Steve H:
Answers on a postcard…

Sorry the postcard is a bit big.

[biggriffin]

Seems your staff, are taking you for a ride,you seem to offer a good employment so just sack 1, and see if the existing ones, change there ways, if not sack more of them,and give a few newbie s a start,and train them how you want them

[steve_h]

dieseldave:

Steve H:
… Before anyone comments regarding disciplinary hearings for staff and other options open to me, beleive me when I say other options have been explored. I am done Curious as to the most pain free way out!!!

Hi Steve,

I’m sorry to hear of your plight, but rather than verbal warning, written warning etc, etc I think there’s a more direct route for you.

It starts by imagining that you’re hauled in for a PI, then the TC tells you that you’re trusted to run a legit operation and all the other stuff that you’re doubtless aware of.

Take that back to your office, and dish it out similarly as cascaded information, but with a slight difference.

Write a procedure that covers what you expect your employees to do.

Report for work, clock-on/book in/insert tacho card (as applicable,) then spend X amount of time doing the following checks: a)… b)… c)…d)… etc and sign the sheet (that you will provide = nil defect reporting.)

Bring each driver in, whilst making sure that a union rep/his mate is with him to act as a witness… read the whole thing aloud in front of both of them, then give the driver a photocopy copy of what you’ve just made and get him to sign and date it to acknowledge it… (along with the witness signing and dating it. )

Hand the photocopy to the driver whilst telling him that the original containing the signatures is going in his personnel file and might be needed by the TC at some future point.

There’s now a matter of properly acknowledged trust between you and that driver, as witnessed by the union rep/his mate.

If he subsequently breaches your trust to do legally required things as well as company policy as set out in the document, it meets the definition of gross misconduct pure and simple with the outcome known and expected by all.

Steve H:
Answers on a postcard…

Sorry the postcard is a bit big.

I like this. Something that I haven’t tried. I mean we have written procedures but not so much dumbed down to a) b) c) etc…

Is this something you have used in the past? If so to what effect?

[big_truck]

albion:

Big Truck:

albion:
Where are you Steve? We have depots in Manchester and Herts. TM you were unlucky there, I’ve had OK ones, got one that is outstanding at the moment, dont think he’s going anywhere -,I’d probably give in if he did, he’s an ex driver, so that helps IMO.

I don’t think it’s the 4 on 3 off, job is so varied that what doesn’t suit one, suits another. Double man, Euro, we don’t do bling top spec trucks either, so a lot of drivers would find us unappealing.

You could make him an offer Albion!!![emoji4][emoji6][emoji847][emoji848]

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What, go and lay the law down with his drivers , Abion way or the highway

[emoji106][emoji16]

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[franglais]

Heres a general set of thoughts. From experience and observation, you cant be both a respected manager and “one of the lads” for very long. You can be fair, friendly, and respected, but unfortunately if you go too far in the friendliness bit, sooner or later someone will take the pee. Owner drivers who start off employing a mate, can do OK at first, but as companies grow, the newer drivers wont understand the banter with the boss, and take him/her as an easy touch. Its unfortunate, but sooner or later you will employ someone who needs disciplining, and a mate or co-worker cant often do that. When it works its noteworthy because of its rarity. You cant be tough on someone for five minutes and be mates later on.
A team of two or three will often all pull together for the common good. A team of more than a couple of dozen may argue and fragment. As others have said if there are one or two “trouble makers” a smallish team can be split.
Maybe employing a GOOD manager* could have saved the situation, but if it goes too far for too long it may be best to write a line under it. Sometimes the type of character needed to start a company from the ground isnt the same as doing the day to day stuff. No offence meant to anyone at all of course, but someone who gets on the job themselves may expect all others to be the same. A small outfit may attract more motivated, self reliant, drivers, but as they grow clock watching passengers arrive, and because the team is now bigger they get away with what the old hands wouldnt?
A bit of a confused post, but may be a prompt to others who can see something more helpful to you?

EDIT * I dont mean to have a go at you there. Im asking when the manager booking his holidays at a meeting got ousted didnt you replace him with a better one? Painful finding one I can see, but that is the job of a medium sized companys boss.