Throwing The Towel In

[dieseldave]

Steve H:
I like this. Something that I haven’t tried. I mean we have written procedures but not so much dumbed down to a) b) c) etc…

Hi Steve,

It’s good that you already have written procedures, because my suggestion is simply a solution tailored to fit the problem and so it’ll be relatively easy for you to implement.

Steve H:
Is this something you have used in the past? If so to what effect?

TBH, it’s a slight adaptation on my way of training transport office staff who have to deal with dangerous goods bookings.
Once I’ve finished with them (anything up to 5hrs worth, depending on subjects needed) they know they’ve been trained (and tested,) and the boss has acknowledged proof of the training for inclusion in personnel files and the company QA system.

Lots of companies use some sort of QA system, so I tweaked a QA assessor’s comments I got some years ago and have used it ever since.

It’s not just the simplicity of the a), b), c) etc, but the fact that it’s acknowledged and recorded that makes it bullet proof.

For that reason, and to be fair to the drivers, I’d advise you to think carefully about how you set it out and what you include in it. For a better quality of finished product and possibly less headaches, it might be worth a chat with whoever writes your QA procedures so that all relevant issues are covered.

The one about downloading tacho cards on a Friday could be covered by delayed wages if you’re not aware of how many hours they’ve worked, or they haven’t used the (new? ) official clocking off procedure to complete their working week, which might even be included in the document that they had read out to them, acknowledge, sign and date in front of their union rep/mate.

You asked about the effect… Even apparently immovable objects can be moved if sufficient force of the right type is applied to them.

[cav551]

I like Dieseldave’s suggestion and particularly the idea in brackets - tested. A written multiple choice exam afterwards on company procedures to be adopted and legal requirements which ANY lorry driver should know. This also kept in their personal file will provide proof of their understanding, which could be used either as evidence to the TC or an employment tribunal. This is a procedure which is adopted by some of the employment agencies. You would of course need to provide further instruction to any who just fail to achieve a satisfactory mark. Those who fail miserably will have merely provided evidence of their lack of suitability for their role with the company.

[tony_r]

HI Steve, What is your location please? Regards Tony.

[dieseldave]

cav551:
I like Dieseldave’s suggestion and particularly the idea in brackets - tested. A written multiple choice exam afterwards on company procedures to be adopted and legal requirements which ANY lorry driver should know. This also kept in their personal file will provide proof of their understanding, which could be used either as evidence to the TC or an employment tribunal. This is a procedure which is adopted by some of the employment agencies. You would of course need to provide further instruction to any who just fail to achieve a satisfactory mark. Those who fail miserably will have merely provided evidence of their lack of suitability for their role with the company.

Exactly cav, lots of firms do this, especially when in many instances, the company must show that training or instructions were ‘suitable and sufficient.’

For quite a number of reasons, it’s good practice to have this type of thing properly documented because you never know when you’ll need it.

I’ll own up that I didn’t know that employment agencies did the same thing.

[steve_h]

dieseldave:

Steve H:
I like this. Something that I haven’t tried. I mean we have written procedures but not so much dumbed down to a) b) c) etc…

Hi Steve,

It’s good that you already have written procedures, because my suggestion is simply a solution tailored to fit the problem and so it’ll be relatively easy for you to implement.

Steve H:
Is this something you have used in the past? If so to what effect?

TBH, it’s a slight adaptation on my way of training transport office staff who have to deal with dangerous goods bookings.
Once I’ve finished with them (anything up to 5hrs worth, depending on subjects needed) they know they’ve been trained (and tested,) and the boss has acknowledged proof of the training for inclusion in personnel files and the company QA system.

Lots of companies use some sort of QA system, so I tweaked a QA assessor’s comments I got some years ago and have used it ever since.

It’s not just the simplicity of the a), b), c) etc, but the fact that it’s acknowledged and recorded that makes it bullet proof.

For that reason, and to be fair to the drivers, I’d advise you to think carefully about how you set it out and what you include in it. For a better quality of finished product and possibly less headaches, it might be worth a chat with whoever writes your QA procedures so that all relevant issues are covered.

The one about downloading tacho cards on a Friday could be covered by delayed wages if you’re not aware of how many hours they’ve worked, or they haven’t used the (new? ) official clocking off procedure to complete their working week, which might even be included in the document that they had read out to them, acknowledge, sign and date in front of their union rep/mate.

You asked about the effect… Even apparently immovable objects can be moved if sufficient force of the right type is applied to them.

Dave - very useful. We are certified to ISO9001 and various other quality management systems which relate to the sector we operate in. I have just fired an e-mail to our certification body asking for views on the issues we are having and how we could possibly link this into our quality management system.

I like the idea of an assessment of some kind that is held on the personnel file. I guess if you give someone enough rope they will eventually hang themselves and save me the pain!

I have no doubt that immovable objects can be shifted with sufficient force, I’m just having trouble applying the right type at the right pressure, but you have given me some great pointers. I’ll certainly be thinking about this over the weekend and may draft something up.

[finbarot]

see, a few gentle shoves from the helpful forum members seems to be turning you around in the right direction. There may be a couple of drivers in for a bit of a shock soon! And not before time

[gidders]

Many years ago I was an owner operator and thought I could gave some mates a job and make a little money for myself,eventually running 5 trucks.How wrong could I be.I thought I was fair and reasonable and tried to operate legally and responsibly.I also paid union(T and G)rates of pay all hours apart from meal breaks within 2 periods of driving.
The first thing I discovered that immediately your mates are no longer your mates.Silly diesel fiddles and using trucks as personal transport to shops,pubs,etc.Failure to follow simple instructions from customers or me.Countless occasions of minor damage adding up to £1000s.One guy missed a ferry from Europoort while asleep on the dockside complained that the dockers didn’t wake him up.Inability to record accurate working time.Running without tacho cards.Asking for wage subs before he’d even started the week’s work.Maybe I was just unlucky.
Eventually went back to driving my own truck.The only problem then was being paid for work done.

[finbarot]

Steve
do your guys fill in a ‘nil defect sheet’ at the end of their shift?

[dieseldave]

Steve H:
Dave - very useful. We are certified to ISO9001 and various other quality management systems which relate to the sector we operate in. I have just fired an e-mail to our certification body asking for views on the issues we are having and how we could possibly link this into our quality management system.

Hi Steve,

I was playing a bit of an away match with subject matter for this because it’s quite a while (10yrs ish) since I taught/was involved in the general Operator CPC type subjects, but I kinda knew the documented and acknowledged instruction/training idea that I use would fit the scenario you described.

I’m involved with dangerous goods stuff, such as drivers’ ADR courses and consultancy etc, but your situation just seemed to be crying out for… a bit more paperwork!!

Only kidding… but I’m glad to be of use.

Steve H:
I like the idea of an assessment of some kind that is held on the personnel file. I guess if you give someone enough rope they will eventually hang themselves and save me the pain!

That’s a good point about the rope if you’d like to play the longer game… you can dismiss for lack of capability, but you might have to demonstrate that a dismissal was the only alternative after all reasonable training and instruction had already taken place and a suitable period for improvement gave no improvement.

Steve H:
I have no doubt that immovable objects can be shifted with sufficient force, I’m just having trouble applying the right type at the right pressure, but you have given me some great pointers. I’ll certainly be thinking about this over the weekend and may draft something up.

If you go ahead with this idea, that concern will probably sort itself out once you get used to doing things in that way…

[juddian]

The funny thing is that decent drivers trying to do the job right, take a pride etc, are having the arse kicked out of them by the cowboys at one extreme who want them to run flat out and bent with half arsed tackle, and the one size fits all logistics giants at the other extreme who assume they’re all as thick as two planks (they like them like this, easily bullied by incompetent managers) who can’t be trusted to change a bloody side light bulb or find their way out of the gate

Now if those good drivers could find the good employers still trying to run in a genuine old school way, wouldn’t that be marvellous.

As a (well i try to be) an old arse driver who still takes a pride despite constant attempts to dumb down to idiot level, i suggest as above you get rid of the incompetents and recruit by word of mouth and recommendation from the drivers you do trust, but if you’ve just had enough so be it, good luck in what you do next.

[steve_h]

Gidders:
Many years ago I was an owner operator and thought I could gave some mates a job and make a little money for myself,eventually running 5 trucks.How wrong could I be.I thought I was fair and reasonable and tried to operate legally and responsibly.I also paid union(T and G)rates of pay all hours apart from meal breaks within 2 periods of driving.
The first thing I discovered that immediately your mates are no longer your mates.Silly diesel fiddles and using trucks as personal transport to shops,pubs,etc.Failure to follow simple instructions from customers or me.Countless occasions of minor damage adding up to £1000s.One guy missed a ferry from Europoort while asleep on the dockside complained that the dockers didn’t wake him up.Inability to record accurate working time.Running without tacho cards.Asking for wage subs before he’d even started the week’s work.Maybe I was just unlucky.
Eventually went back to driving my own truck.The only problem then was being paid for work done.

Reading your post is like groundhog day for me. I feel your pain. It takes a special type of clown to blame the dock workers for not waking him up to catch his ferry.

dieseldave:
If you go ahead with this idea, that concern will probably sort itself out once you get used to doing things in that way…

I’m sure there will be several weeks of pain ahead if I decided to carry on with it, but then all it would take is a couple of decent blokes to see that it is a reasonable “for life” job. They are as rare as the golden egg, both blokes and jobs!

[dieseldave]

Steve H:

dieseldave:
If you go ahead with this idea, that concern will probably sort itself out once you get used to doing things in that way…

I’m sure there will be several weeks of pain ahead if I decided to carry on with it, but then all it would take is a couple of decent blokes to see that it is a reasonable “for life” job. They are as rare as the golden egg, both blokes and jobs!

Hi Steve,

I’m seeing this as a two-way thing.

One the one hand, you’re sorting out and clarifying existing procedures and insisting on folks sticking to them, so to a small extent tightening up a bit on the running of your ship, which IMHO can only be beneficial in terms of compliance and record keeping all around.

On the other hand, you’re saying very clearly to your drivers exactly how you want the job to be done, so the benefit to them is that they’ll know exactly where they stand and what’s expected of them. I’d suggest that the document you produce and get acknowledged and signed includes something to the effect that shortcomings will be dealt with by use of ONE reminder (if you’re feeling generous) followed by use of existing company disciplinary procedures including instant dismissal.

Instant dismissal for gross misconduct might be applicable if shortcomings involve breaching any legal requirement, which you trust them to comply with. It would need to be clearly explained and acknowledged that this means any kind of driver conduct that places your ‘O’ licence in any kind of jeopardy. Here, I have in mind anything connected with drivers’ hours (rest/breaks/driving time) and making cards available for downloading etc as examples (but there are others) since it’s possible that you could be called to a PI to account for how/why you’re letting it happen if it is happening and gets discovered.

Outcomes.
You get clarity and a clear path for dealing with those who don’t stick to your way of doing things.

The drivers get clarity in that they know what’s expected of them and that they’ll be dealt with by you using a clearly set out procedure for dealing with shortcomings.

You earn lots of brownie points with the TC for having a robust procedure in place in advance of any problems that bring you before him/her for consideration of you being slippered.

Once you’re on their case, those who don’t like the clarity can always leave of their own accord, thereby saving you a job.

[steve_h]

dieseldave:

Steve H:

dieseldave:
If you go ahead with this idea, that concern will probably sort itself out once you get used to doing things in that way…

I’m sure there will be several weeks of pain ahead if I decided to carry on with it, but then all it would take is a couple of decent blokes to see that it is a reasonable “for life” job. They are as rare as the golden egg, both blokes and jobs!

Hi Steve,

I’m seeing this as a two-way thing.

One the one hand, you’re sorting out and clarifying existing procedures and insisting on folks sticking to them, so to a small extent tightening up a bit on the running of your ship, which IMHO can only be beneficial in terms of compliance and record keeping all around.

On the other hand, you’re saying very clearly to your drivers exactly how you want the job to be done, so the benefit to them is that they’ll know exactly where they stand and what’s expected of them. I’d suggest that the document you produce and get acknowledged and signed includes something to the effect that shortcomings will be dealt with by use of ONE reminder (if you’re feeling generous) followed by use of existing company disciplinary procedures including instant dismissal.

Instant dismissal for gross misconduct might be applicable if shortcomings involve breaching any legal requirement, which you trust them to comply with. It would need to be clearly explained and acknowledged that this means any kind of driver conduct that places your ‘O’ licence in any kind of jeopardy. Here, I have in mind anything connected with drivers’ hours (rest/breaks/driving time) and making cards available for downloading etc as examples (but there are others) since it’s possible that you could be called to a PI to account for how/why you’re letting it happen if it is happening and gets discovered.

Outcomes.
You get clarity and a clear path for dealing with those who don’t stick to your way of doing things.

The drivers get clarity in that they know what’s expected of them and that they’ll be dealt with by you using a clearly set out procedure for dealing with shortcomings.

You earn lots of brownie points with the TC for having a robust procedure in place in advance of any problems that bring you before him/her for consideration of you being slippered.

Once you’re on their case, those who don’t like the clarity can always leave of their own accord, thereby saving you a job.

You start Tuesday 0900. Don’t be late

[dieseldave]

Steve H:
You start Tuesday 0900. Don’t be late

Once I’ve cleared my present workload, I’m guessing that’ll be sometime in 2019 then.

[good_friend]

I can help you Steve

I’m assuming DD will tell you I’m ok and I’m an expert bum kicker!

It’s also an advantage being female would you believe

I’m back from Germany on Saturday and then free until the next tour

[dieseldave]

good_friend:
I can help you Steve

I’m assuming DD will tell you I’m ok and I’m an expert bum kicker!

Hi Steve,

Yes, I can tell you that good_friend is OK, and that she’s a very qualified and specialised bum kicker.

If needed, I’d say that she can probably kick other anatomical parts too!!

[albion]

dieseldave:

good_friend:
I can help you Steve

I’m assuming DD will tell you I’m ok and I’m an expert bum kicker!

Hi Steve,

Yes, I can tell you that good_friend is OK, and that she’s a very qualified and specialised bum kicker.

If needed, I’d say that she can probably kick other anatomical parts too!!

Must be a woman thing, men respond better to a,woman cracking the whip.

[good_friend]

dieseldave:

good_friend:
I can help you Steve

I’m assuming DD will tell you I’m ok and I’m an expert bum kicker!

Hi Steve,

Yes, I can tell you that good_friend is OK, and that she’s a very qualified and specialised bum kicker.

If needed, I’d say that she can probably kick other anatomical parts too!!

Thank you and yes, other parts can also be kicked when necessary

[good_friend]

albion:
Must be a woman thing, men respond better to a,woman cracking the whip.

It stops being a willy-waggling exercise when it’s a woman manager

[steve_h]

good_friend:
I can help you Steve

I’m assuming DD will tell you I’m ok and I’m an expert bum kicker!

It’s also an advantage being female would you believe

I’m back from Germany on Saturday and then free until the next tour

PM Sent