DJC:
Previous grants the EU gave us
Which part of the meaning of net contributor don’t you understand.IE we pay in more than we get back in so called grants.Let alone when the trade deficit is added to it.
the maoster:
Guys, it was a picture stolen from interwebland, but let’s not let that get in the way of the increasingly frantic and hysteria laden drip drip drip from project fear shall we? This country wasn’t built by shrinking violets terrified of their own shadows, just what is it that you remoaners are in fact terrified about? Does the idea of standing proud really scare you so much? Better to die on your feet than live on your knees!Discuss
Project Fear?
If a real risk is pointed out, so that avoiding action can be taken part of “project fear”?
“Dont drive fast in the fog, you cant see what`s ahead”. Sounds sensible to me.
If we leave and go onto WTO rules our exports will cost more to our customers, so well probably loose trade. Cant dispute the facts? Call it “Project Fear”, and avoid sensible discussion then.
Or how about about this load of “Project Fear” bllx from the Old Time thread:
download/file.php?id=269880&mode=view
A lovely piece about how fearful we should all be of membership of the EU.
What does “Standing Proud” mean here? Who is on their knees?
Lovely emotive phrasing, but what are you talking about?
Im not some down trodden victim of the EU. Im a citizen of the UK, who is doing OK, thank you. Have we done less well than we wished in the past ten years? Well, so has most of the rest of the world!
Im not some belly-aching victim blaming BMW or Mercedes for the failings of BMC. We import food from Eu whilst we have fallow land here? Whos to blame for that? Could it possibly be UK landowners?
I am grown up enough to accept that my country is less than perfect, and the EU is less than perfect. I`m prepared to work towards improving it. I am not a quitter who imagines that the grass is always greener anywhere but here.
Can we as a country make a go of it after Brexit?
Of course we can. We can hobble along at first, and then become stronger. But there would be no need to hobble along if we can resist shooting ourselves in the foot!
Edit to add:
“drip, drip, drip of project fear” equals the drip, drip, drip of false stories about the EU, maybe?
But if we leave, will still be allowed to enter the Eurovision song contest ? 
Suedehead:
But if we leave, will still be allowed to enter the Eurovision song contest ?
Time to quash another piece of “false news”:
Leaving the EU will NOT make the UK a Eurovision Song proofed area! Sorry.
It is broadcast all over the place.
Viewing isn`t compulsory yet, although some “newspapers” have been suggesting that failure to view will soon become punishable by…
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag … uURduRve_l
Franglais:
Suedehead:
But if we leave, will still be allowed to enter the Eurovision song contest ?Time to quash another piece of “false news”:
Leaving the EU will NOT make the UK a Eurovision Song proofed area! Sorry.
It is broadcast all over the place.
Viewing isn`t compulsory yet, although some “newspapers” have been suggesting that failure to view will soon become punishable by…
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag … uURduRve_l
Viewing may not be compulsory, but if you’re a license payer then paying for the ■■■■ thing is. I’ve never understood why they bother with all this silly singing nonsense when a lot of time, money and effort could be saved by just voting for your favorite country.
Any “deal” that involves us handing over more money after March 29th - is NOT “Brexit”. We’ll still be paying. It doesn’t matter for how much or how little - we’ll still be paying, and that means we didn’t leave after all.
Theresa May’s deal isn’t Brexit, but it was never designed to be.
It was supposed to be so awful for the UK, that even Remainers wouldn’t vote for it much, except perhaps the Tory Remainers, who’d rather some kind of “deal” gets through Parliament, rather than there be a snap general election, where they’d have less chance of winning their own seat as a deaf kid playing musical chairs.
Tory Brexiteers tactically voted against the PM in their recent vote of no-confidence knowing that the Tory Remainers would support her, and keep her in office.
Now that they have DONE that, and another vote of no confidence cannot be tabled for the rest of this year - the PM can run down the clock, as time now works against the EU and the Remainers, who have the choice of either putting a deal together themselves (which they’ve not done yet, as they never planned on completing Brexit all along!) OR let the EU submit a deal acceptable to Parliament of their own…
THIS isn’t likely, as May’s deal was already 95/5 in the EU’s favour, and Parliament rejected that, meaning they’d hardly vote through a deal that was 96+% in the EU’s favour - would they?
…March 29th comes, and providing the Government has got rid of those senior civil servants who are lingering on in their ■■■■■-string jobs at present - she’ll easily be able to do a No Deal but MANAGED Brexit on March 29th, which WON’T need Parliament’s approval, because May is the PM - and they ain’t!
Carryfast:
DJC:
Previous grants the EU gave usWhich part of the meaning of net contributor don’t you understand.IE we pay in more than we get back in so called grants.Let alone when the trade deficit is added to it.
That’s fair enough, however it’s not nearly that simple as we also get economic benefit which is impossible to quantify, as the alternative scenario of never having joined the EU in the first place doesn’t exist. fullfact.org/europe/economic-co … embership/
Carryfast:
DJC:
We’re an economy adapted to being within the EU, taking us out of that is a major change to how well our adapted businesses can function, big businesses with the capability to relocate are already escaping the oncoming catastrophe and it’s not even happened yet. Twin that with the already dire public spending, police forces slashed to the minimum and the uprising far right movement, I’m “terrified about” the entire country turning into one which idolises fascism and racism, all of it based on lies spread through the catalyst you trivialise and call interwebland.We’ve seen what your idea of being ‘adapted’ means.A massive unsustainable trade deficit and an over supplied labour market and we pay hundreds of billions in net contributions for the privilege.Then you laughably contradict your own bs by correctly pointing out all the austerity that we have to inflict on ourselves to pay for it all since the late 1970’s.
As for idolising fascism the only fascism going on here is a bunch of neo bolsheviks trying to re create an EUSSR in our own back yard and who’s only real claim to being of the ‘left’ is in thinking that only they have the self appointed right to represent the working class.Good luck with that.Meanwhile the whole Brexit farce is now pointless and any self respecting Nationalist would have moved on to realising that this is a European fight and supporting remain on that basis.IE smash the stinking EU from within thereby curing the disease rather than trying do fix the localised UK soviet style vassal state symptom.
I’ll agree with you that as it currently stands within the EU, the country isn’t funded as I’d like it to be, but you seem to automatically blame on the EU for that and suggest that leaving will fix all our problems, as I said above the alternative scenario of never having joined doesn’t exist, so we would never know. If it had happened it’s entirely likely we would be in a worse position than we are now, equally could’ve been better and we may well have ended up being like Switzerland. It’s not nearly as simple as slipping out and into a situation like that though, leaving it and having never been in it in the first place are totally different development timelines as we are an economy “adapted” to being in it. Our problems are caused by our own government, as you mention an over supplied labour market, our own government chose not to implement immigration controls which we were able to do from within the EU so why would think leaving it is going to change anything? Our government has consistently blamed the EU for our problems yet we do nothing within our power to rectify them. The EU is not perfect and far from it, but I’d much rather be in the frying pan than in the fire.
Being flooded with cheap labour has been a severe blow to this country, but what is even worse is hearing all these sad remoaners quaking with fear about possibly having less money in their bank accounts.
There was a time when this country ruled the world. There were also 2 wars where we fought like tigers to preserve our way of life. Do you really think all the sacrifices made throughout our history were so that British people could be ruled from abroad?
Reach down folks a get a bloody grip. Find some backbone and let’s start backing ourselves as a nation. The EU need us far more than we need them ffs 
Franglais:
Suedehead:
But if we leave, will still be allowed to enter the Eurovision song contest ?Time to quash another piece of “false news”:
Leaving the EU will NOT make the UK a Eurovision Song proofed area! Sorry.
It is broadcast all over the place.
The only false news in that case would be yet another lie put out by Remainer project fear.As for the leave vote like everything else if only Brexit could mean turning the clock back to 1972 like our EU membership had never happened it was all a bad dream ( and the Lux winner was deffo better than the New Seekers’ entry ).But that doesn’t make a BMW 3.0 E3 better than an XJ12 though. 
DJC:
Carryfast:
Which part of the meaning of net contributor don’t you understand.IE we pay in more than we get back in so called grants.Let alone when the trade deficit is added to it.That’s fair enough, however it’s not nearly that simple as we also get economic benefit which is impossible to quantify,
How do we get any ‘economic benefit’ when we’ve got a massive trade deficit black hole in the accounts to add to the net contribution bill.The ‘alternative’ proven ‘scenario’ was already there.Which went to 1 bn down just by 1973 2 bn down by '74.Remind us what the trade deficit figure is with Europe now bearing in mind more than 50 bn with Germany alone all in less than 50 years.
DJC:
… The EU is not perfect and far from it, but I’d much rather be in the frying pan than in the fire.
A good post that I agree with.
But remember, it is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle, than it is for a camel to. 
DJC:
the maoster:
Guys, it was a picture stolen from interwebland, but let’s not let that get in the way of the increasingly frantic and hysteria laden drip drip drip from project fear shall we? This country wasn’t built by shrinking violets terrified of their own shadows, just what is it that you remoaners are in fact terrified about? Does the idea of standing proud really scare you so much? Better to die on your feet than live on your knees!Discuss
You got called out that your spreading of fake news was total rubbish, and you’re now trying to disassociate yourself from it by trivialising that it came from interwebland and trying to divert attention away from yourself and your political incompetence by targeting and belittling anyone who supports remain.
I’ll take your bait though, Britain isn’t the biggest bully in the room that makes the whole world quake in their boots, nobody is clamouring to get a trade deal with us. We’re an economy adapted to being within the EU, taking us out of that is a major change to how well our adapted businesses can function, big businesses with the capability to relocate are already escaping the oncoming catastrophe and it’s not even happened yet. Twin that with the already dire public spending, police forces slashed to the minimum and the uprising far right movement, I’m “terrified about” the entire country turning into one which idolises fascism and racism, all of it based on lies spread through the catalyst you trivialise and call interwebland.
Aaaaand there we have it! A rant straight out of The Ladybird book of Remaining. I’m pleased to see you managed to get the racism card in and only slightly disappointed you didn’t manage to shoehorn xenophobic or little Englander in too. It’s the mindset that baffles me however; there have been times in the past where things haven’t gone my way and I’ve immediately thought “ok, that didn’t go to plan, so what can I now do to make the best of the hand I’ve been dealt?” That attitude seems to be lacking with your ilk and you seem to prefer to wallow in self pity and take the negatives from the democratically driven situation you find yourself in. Did I mention democratic? Yeah I did, you have opted to live in a democracy (the exits are clearly signposted btw), but apparently that’s fine for as long as the votes suit your way of thinking. This time the vote didn’t so perhaps it’s time to accept that and for everyone to work together for the good of this country?
Losing a vote isn’t the end of the world. The behaviour of the remainers in the ensuing time is where the real losers are highlighted.
“Flooded with cheap labour”?
We have currently a 4% unemployment rate. That’s low by any standards, and some economists argue that going below 3% is bad for a country. (Obviously though it’s bad for those out of work).
Wage differentials are changing all over the world. It is a time of flux. That is not a uniquely EU problem and leaving will leave us more in competition with lower paid economies than now.
How many knowingly voted to be worse off?
“We used to have a mighty empire”.
True. We haven’t now.
So look ahead rather than try to ride on the coat-tails of the past. Building a future for us and our kids won’t be done crying over past times. The Victorians were forward looking, they didn’t just hark back to the good ole days of Hereward the Wake did they?
“They need us more than we need them”?
We import a third of our food from the EU.
They buy about 44% of our exports.
We buy about 10% of their exports.
Our economy is based about 80% on services…people and offices, easily moved…
The nonsense about them crawling along to sign deals has long been proved to be wrong hasn’t it?
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the maoster:
Re the Irish border shenanigans…
It is the EU that wants a hard border between what they perceive as an Ulster to be outside the EU, and therefore NOT entitled to trade with Eire which will still be IN the EU.
If the UK via Northern Ireland is permitted free trade with the Republic across that land border - then every other EU member state and their dogs will want the same deal - whilst leaving the EU also, in the case of France and Italy in particular.
This whole “backstop” argument is basically the EU trying to stop us from cutting the financial subsidies after we’ve left.
There’s nothing on the table they could possibly offer us to keep the UK in the EU.
All the offers being made are essentially “threats” to the general public, and “promises of enrichment” to our politicians, if they can yet get them to turn over Brexit.
It is currently 4-1 AGAINST Brexit happening by the end of March this year.
That means a perceived 80% chance that Brexit will be turned over then.
Brexit cannot be extended, without killing it off entirely now.
the maoster:
DJC:
the maoster:
Guys, it was a picture stolen from interwebland, but let’s not let that get in the way of the increasingly frantic and hysteria laden drip drip drip from project fear shall we? This country wasn’t built by shrinking violets terrified of their own shadows, just what is it that you remoaners are in fact terrified about? Does the idea of standing proud really scare you so much? Better to die on your feet than live on your knees!Discuss
You got called out that your spreading of fake news was total rubbish, and you’re now trying to disassociate yourself from it by trivialising that it came from interwebland and trying to divert attention away from yourself and your political incompetence by targeting and belittling anyone who supports remain.
I’ll take your bait though, Britain isn’t the biggest bully in the room that makes the whole world quake in their boots, nobody is clamouring to get a trade deal with us. We’re an economy adapted to being within the EU, taking us out of that is a major change to how well our adapted businesses can function, big businesses with the capability to relocate are already escaping the oncoming catastrophe and it’s not even happened yet. Twin that with the already dire public spending, police forces slashed to the minimum and the uprising far right movement, I’m “terrified about” the entire country turning into one which idolises fascism and racism, all of it based on lies spread through the catalyst you trivialise and call interwebland.
Aaaaand there we have it! A rant straight out of The Ladybird book of Remaining. I’m pleased to see you managed to get the racism card in and only slightly disappointed you didn’t manage to shoehorn xenophobic or little Englander in too. It’s the mindset that baffles me however; there have been times in the past where things haven’t gone my way and I’ve immediately thought “ok, that didn’t go to plan, so what can I now do to make the best of the hand I’ve been dealt?” That attitude seems to be lacking with your ilk and you seem to prefer to wallow in self pity and take the negatives from the democratically driven situation you find yourself in. Did I mention democratic? Yeah I did, you have opted to live in a democracy (the exits are clearly signposted btw), but apparently that’s fine for as long as the votes suit your way of thinking. This time the vote didn’t so perhaps it’s time to accept that and for everyone to work together for the good of this country?
Losing a vote isn’t the end of the world. The behaviour of the remainers in the ensuing time is where the real losers are highlighted.
Why did we ever need to Remain to get crappy trade deals that lose Britain money, whilst committing us to over-buy foreign imports we don’t really need or want?
The EU as a Free Trade Zone - doesn’t need “subsidies”.
No one is paying attention to the rather alarming number of small service sector firms that are going ■■■■-up in the background right now.
Let’s take a look at how many fields are full of Lavender and ■■■■ later this year… We need to get away from providing exports ONLY destined for the outgoing EU markets, and become both self-sufficient for produce, whilst finding new markets for what we export.
If we could be buying “New Zealand Lamb” back in the 70’s, then there’s no reason we cannot do something similar re commonwealth countries - in the post-Brexit environment.
It would help us greatly if other EU member states break away following Britain’s departure.
The EU are merely trying to extract as much money from the UK now as possible.
Ongoing payments and large lump sums - for pretty much NOTHING in return.
The Conservatives are going to get killed by the Remain vote at the next election, for completing Brexit.
They’ll get killed by the Brexiteer vote for killing off Brexit…
…There’s one strategy left to them that hasn’t been tried yet, but it cannot happen unless a Brexiteer becomes PM BEFORE the next election.:
"Change leader, call a general election and then stand aside all Conservative Candidates in those seats where UKIP poll well, and Labour/Libdems currently hold the seat.
Think about it:
If you KNOW you’re going to lose about 100 seats in any future election, then it would be better to lose those seats to a potential coalition partner than an intransigent opposition party.
Lose the seats to UKIP, and have a fighting chance of the next government being a Con/UKIP coalition, thus retaining a grip on power.
DON’T do that - and we’ll end up in an even WORSE quagmire where our electorate gets split SIX ways, of whom three are needed to put togehter a government, and it’ll be like trying to mix sand, oil, and plastecine.
The SNP won’t be in any coalition with UKIP in it, UKIP won’t be in any coalition with the Libdems in it, and the Libdems won’t be in any coalition with the SNP in it.
Even the Tories and Labour cannot form a “Grand Coaltion” - because their two combined seat tallies - isn’t enough to get them over the 326 finish line!
Surely we cannot have a future “coalition minority government”?
Labour wants to raise taxes - “Motion of no confidence by the rest of the house”.
Tories want to complete Brexit - “Motion of no confidence by the rest of the house”.
UKIP want to be anywhere in government “Motion of no confidence the moment a kipper cabinet member stands up to speak”
The SNP want a second referendum “They might get one now!”
Libdems want Brexit cancelled - “They might be able to downsize from their current minibus, carrying on like that!”
The minor parties like Plaid Cymru, Ulster Unionists, and even Independents - will surely have a bigger say than ever before - IF they can stop pulling in seperate directions,…
Labour - seem to want to become a party of Remain, and steal votes away from the Libdems. Good luck with selling your party soul for a handful of seats, what is it? - 12? “best possible result gain from Libdem”?
The Tories have weakened UKIP sufficiently that they’d have to come up with a major coalition deal very much in UKIP’s favour - to get them on board in any future coalition. I can’t see that happening with Remainers still in the Conservative Party.
The SNP - can’t get enough seats even if maxed out - to guarantee them a place in any future coaltion. There’s more chance that UKIP will get more than 60 seats than the SNP can - simply because for the SNP it is actually mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for them to do!
The people will one day be asked to vote for the government that they are least afraid of.
Theresa May has already shown what happens if you play the “Destroy UKIP by warning a vote for UKIP is a vote for Labour”. Around 3m UKIP voters from 2015 must have got behind Corbyn in 2017…
The PM’s best bet for now - is what she’s actually been getting on with of late.
Trick the Remainer Tories into keeping her in power, THEN perform the No Deal Brexit, and retain that £39bn.
Come the Spring of this year, the Remainer Tories will be reluctant to destablize the goverment any longer, as they’d be the first to lose their seats in any force election.
So… The future is either Brexit completed, or UKIP in government to complete if FOR them.
Other remain parties carrying on hampering Brexit - only strengthens UKIP’s hand from here on.
If anything, Farage is probably the greatest threat to UKIP now, as if he forms a seperate party, the vote will be split, and Labour will mop up a lot more seats, truly giving us the worse-case scenario - a Labour/SNP coalition government. London and Scotland would act upon the rest of the UK like a parasitic twin… 
Franglais:
“Flooded with cheap labour”?
We have currently a 4% unemployment rate.
And we all know that statistic is codswallop, in the same vein as the “driver shortage”.
When Britain had such rates in the 60s, you could walk out of a routine job in the morning and be in another job in the factory next door by the afternoon, and wages were inflating healthily.
There is not the slightest evidence of such conditions today.
Franglais:
“Flooded with cheap labour”?
We have currently a 4% unemployment rate. That’s low by any standards, and some economists argue that going below 3% is bad for a country. (Obviously though it’s bad for those out of work).
Wage differentials are changing all over the world. It is a time of flux. That is not a uniquely EU problem and leaving will leave us more in competition with lower paid economies than now.
How many knowingly voted to be worse off?“We used to have a mighty empire”.
True. We haven’t now.
So look ahead rather than try to ride on the coat-tails of the past. Building a future for us and our kids won’t be done crying over past times. The Victorians were forward looking, they didn’t just hark back to the good ole days of Hereward the Wake did they?“They need us more than we need them”?
We import a third of our food from the EU.
They buy about 44% of our exports.
We buy about 10% of their exports.
Our economy is based about 80% on services…people and offices, easily moved…
The nonsense about them crawling along to sign deals has long been proved to be wrong hasn’t it?
We have currently a so called 4% unemployment rate using rigged figures based on youth unemployment being hidden by silly school leaving age expectations and funding it’s own unemployment in the form of ‘further education’ and ‘student loans’ even after that.While the East Euros take the jobs.Not to mention the loss of jobs and skills caused by the transfer of industry to Europe.That’s the tax revenue stream busted before we start.
Below 3% unemployment is bad for a country yeah right Germany was a basket case between the late 1950’s-mid 1970’s in that case.With the US close to it in 1968/9.
If we import a 3rd of the food we need from the EU how is it that I can buy everything I need in any of the usual supermarkets from meat to fruit and veg and dairy without any need whatsoever to buy European produce.
10% of total EU exports is worth a lot more than 44% of British exports.Let alone when it’s turned into a more realistic UK v German comparison.Which probably explains the trade deficit with Euroland of epic proportions.While yes our economy is unsustainably based on the foundations of services and clerical.That’s working out well for us.As opposed to Germany.
The fact that ‘they’ haven’t so far been crawling to make a proper deal,in which we don’t have to compromise sovereignty for trade,hasn’t been proven because we’ve got EU Federalists running the Brexit show in the interests of the EU.As opposed to telling the Germans if they want a trade war they can have one.
Rjan:
Franglais:
“Flooded with cheap labour”?
We have currently a 4% unemployment rate.And we all know that statistic is codswallop, in the same vein as the “driver shortage”.
When Britain had such rates in the 60s, you could walk out of a routine job in the morning and be in another job in the factory next door by the afternoon, and wages were inflating healthily.
There is not the slightest evidence of such conditions today.
+1
Rjan:
Franglais:
“Flooded with cheap labour”?
We have currently a 4% unemployment rate.And we all know that statistic is codswallop, in the same vein as the “driver shortage”.
When Britain had such rates in the 60s, you could walk out of a routine job in the morning and be in another job in the factory next door by the afternoon, and wages were inflating healthily.
There is not the slightest evidence of such conditions today.
There are changes and issues with the way of measuring unemployment agreed. But these are the official figures.
Edit to add.
Wage structures are changing now agreed. But surely much of that is due to the global changes in the work market and is not due to us being in/out of the EU area?
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Rjan and C.F. you’re both making points which I’ll try to answer a little later.
Not that I’m about to disprove them, just kick the issues around a bit.
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