albion:
Some titan of industry said that he doesn’t take graduates on because if there is a problem, graduates analyse it, nongraduates solve it. |From what I’ve seen ( some sort of business degree), that’s right.
I think the main thing is we have, although I think it’s changing, a system where you were pushed into University, regardless of the type of work you were best suited to, Politicians, Educationists and many parents seemed to think it was the only option, and with lack of proper apprenticeships they were probably right.
There are many jobs that require the education University can offer, worked with loads of motorsport Engineers with and without a University education and you can normally tell whose got the degree, (I’m sure somebody will give me an example of some Famous Reacar Engineer without a degree, but there are always exceptions) but you don’t need that to repair the thing, you need a good hands on training, but I do mean proper structured training, not just sweeping the floor and making tea and every so often shown how to do something because somebody has a bit of time on their hands.
I wouldn’t class media studies as a key skill, it’s not a science, teaching or medical, and there are possibly fields within media studies that warrant a degree, the point I was trying to make is that some students use media studies as a cop out course, and not having any intention of pursuing a career in it, media studies is taught within schools to an A level standard, nursing isn’t, teaching isn’t you need A levels as an entry level
Grumpy Dad:
I wouldn’t class media studies as a key skill, it’s not a science, teaching or medical, and there are possibly fields within media studies that warrant a degree, the point I was trying to make is that some students use media studies as a cop out course, and not having any intention of pursuing a career in it, media studies is taught within schools to an A level standard, nursing isn’t, teaching isn’t you need A levels as an entry level
I don’t think degrees suit some roles very well. On the job training would be more relevant. But rightly or wrongly, degrees are now used as a filter in competitive fields to sort the wheat from the chaff - those who were interested enough to study the field prior to applying. Take joining the Police. You now have to pass a specific distance learning course prior to application.
Agree the evidence seems some enrole on courses without much enthusiasm other than wanting to spend a few years of uni life or because that is the way the machine is pushing them. But that isn’t limited to non science subjects. Plenty of kids sign up to study Chemistry, or Biology, only to drop out, completely disillusioned with their choice. Perhaps this is the fault of the system streaming kids into the degree plughole as being a panacea to gaining employment. Perhaps even more training opportunities that identify skills and interests earlier on outside of the old sciences would be welcome. After all, not everyone can be a scientist, nurse or teacher. And nor is that required. The country values and requires a wider scope than that.
It’s natural to require A levels to teach in schools. Otherwise it would be the mice teaching other mice about the manufacture of cheese .
Grumpy Dad:
I wouldn’t class media studies as a key skill, it’s not a science, teaching or medical, and there are possibly fields within media studies that warrant a degree, the point I was trying to make is that some students use media studies as a cop out course, and not having any intention of pursuing a career in it, media studies is taught within schools to an A level standard, nursing isn’t, teaching isn’t you need A levels as an entry level
Media is a big part of our life and it makes money, earns revenue for the Country and employs people who pay taxes to pay the Nurses, Doctors, Teachers etc.
People do degree’s in Math and Physics, and you can do that at A Level.
Graduates are far more likely to be in Employment than those that are not and those with Media Studies Degrees have a higher than average employment rate of all those with degrees, so not sure if it is a cop out, although couldn’t find a breakdown for those working in related jobs though. And it’s one of the lowest paying degrees, which is a relief considering the Media types I’ve had to work with.
Apparently Engineering’s what you want for the big bucks.
There are two types of degree, job specific and non job specific. Examples of job specific would be: engineering, medicine or law. You’ll struggle to get into these fields without the right degree. Non job specific degrees open open up fields such as: teaching, social work, business management. Jobs where specific knowledge isn’t required but the ability to work to a high standard is.
I suppose there is a third category, but art degrees don’t really count as anything.
As someone who’s spent the past twenty years paying off their university fees, it’s a bit of a kick in the teeth seeing other people get it for free. A bt like my neighbours who’ve never done a days work in their life but still have the large screen tv, sky package, ipads for each brat, oops, I mean kid, etc.
Captain Caveman 76:
As someone who’s spent the past twenty years paying off their university fees, it’s a bit of a kick in the teeth seeing other people get it for free. A bt like my neighbours who’ve never done a days work in their life but still have the large screen tv, sky package, ipads for each brat, oops, I mean kid, etc.
This is the kernel of it, the wisdom (lack of) that I think they need to look at. Degrees for young people full of mental vitality and potential to go on and do great things for society are already very expensive things. To offer them free, at the behest of the public ■■■■■, to a generation in their twilight years enjoying a retirement, is a bit fishy on the justification of spending stakes. I don’t buy that keeping them alive for more years will offset the cost. And I don’t particularly subscribe to the idea that a mass of free degrees (not the singers) will nett a mass of retirees suddenly alleviating their burden on the health system. Using a mind does aid health, but it’s all a bit subjective to say it’ll cover its costs.
All it is, is a nice cosy little idea, giving this relatively historic bubble of retirees the chance to study 3 years of ancient Roman history - if it were from money grown on the magic little money tree. But it’s not.
A counter argument I read is that many of this generation were deprived from higher education due to the social and financial barriers of the day. This is an arguable point. However, also arguable is expecting a young generation with potential to pay for this just on the point of principle, who will themselves be deprived of this concept of retirement the likes of the last few generations enjoyed.
Captain Caveman 76:
As someone who’s spent the past twenty years paying off their university fees, it’s a bit of a kick in the teeth seeing other people get it for free. A bt like my neighbours who’ve never done a days work in their life but still have the large screen tv, sky package, ipads for each brat, oops, I mean kid, etc.
This is the kernel of it, the wisdom (lack of) that I think they need to look at. Degrees for young people full of mental vitality and potential to go on and do great things for society are already very expensive things. To offer them free, at the behest of the public ■■■■■, to a generation in their twilight years enjoying a retirement, is a bit fishy on the justification of spending stakes. I don’t buy that keeping them alive for more years will offset the cost. And I don’t particularly subscribe to the idea that a mass of free degrees (not the singers) will nett a mass of retirees suddenly alleviating their burden on the health system. Using a mind does aid health, but it’s all a bit subjective to say it’ll cover its costs.
All it is, is a nice cosy little idea, giving this relatively historic bubble of retirees the chance to study 3 years of ancient Roman history - if it were from money grown on the magic little money tree. But it’s not.
A counter argument I read is that many of this generation were deprived from higher education due to the social and financial barriers of the day. This is an arguable point. However, also arguable is expecting a young generation with potential to pay for this just on the point of principle, who will themselves be deprived of this concept of retirement the likes of the last few generations enjoyed.
I don’t think this is some Government scheme to offer degrees for free to retired people, but it shows a loophole in the Student loans system, whereby somebody can sign up for a degree course, then takes a out a student loan to pay the tuition fee, knowing they’ll never earn enough to have to pay the loan back.
Captain Caveman 76:
As someone who’s spent the past twenty years paying off their university fees, it’s a bit of a kick in the teeth seeing other people get it for free. A bt like my neighbours who’ve never done a days work in their life but still have the large screen tv, sky package, ipads for each brat, oops, I mean kid, etc.
This is the kernel of it, the wisdom (lack of) that I think they need to look at. Degrees for young people full of mental vitality and potential to go on and do great things for society are already very expensive things. To offer them free, at the behest of the public ■■■■■, to a generation in their twilight years enjoying a retirement, is a bit fishy on the justification of spending stakes. I don’t buy that keeping them alive for more years will offset the cost. And I don’t particularly subscribe to the idea that a mass of free degrees (not the singers) will nett a mass of retirees suddenly alleviating their burden on the health system. Using a mind does aid health, but it’s all a bit subjective to say it’ll cover its costs.
All it is, is a nice cosy little idea, giving this relatively historic bubble of retirees the chance to study 3 years of ancient Roman history - if it were from money grown on the magic little money tree. But it’s not.
A counter argument I read is that many of this generation were deprived from higher education due to the social and financial barriers of the day. This is an arguable point. However, also arguable is expecting a young generation with potential to pay for this just on the point of principle, who will themselves be deprived of this concept of retirement the likes of the last few generations enjoyed.
I don’t think this is some Government scheme to offer degrees for free to retired people, but it shows a loophole in the Student loans system, whereby somebody can sign up for a degree course, then takes a out a student loan to pay the tuition fee, knowing they’ll never earn enough to have to pay the loan back.
Ah right, didn’t appreciate that. Well, that’s even worse! It’s cunning premeditation on the part of the retirees!
Freight Dog:
To offer them free, at the behest of the public ■■■■■, to a generation in their twilight years enjoying a retirement, is a bit fishy on the justification of spending stakes.
All it is, is a nice cosy little idea, giving this relatively historic bubble of retirees the chance to study 3 years of ancient Roman history - if it were from money grown on the magic little money tree. But it’s not.
.
I don’t think this is some Government scheme to offer degrees for free to retired people, but it shows a loophole in the Student loans system, whereby somebody can sign up for a degree course, then takes a out a student loan to pay the tuition fee, knowing they’ll never earn enough to have to pay the loan back.
Ah right, didn’t appreciate that. Well, that’s even worse! It’s cunning premeditation on the part of the retirees!
To Quote that great philosopher David Brent
Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability
Freight Dog:
To offer them free, at the behest of the public ■■■■■, to a generation in their twilight years enjoying a retirement, is a bit fishy on the justification of spending stakes.
All it is, is a nice cosy little idea, giving this relatively historic bubble of retirees the chance to study 3 years of ancient Roman history - if it were from money grown on the magic little money tree. But it’s not.
.
I don’t think this is some Government scheme to offer degrees for free to retired people, but it shows a loophole in the Student loans system, whereby somebody can sign up for a degree course, then takes a out a student loan to pay the tuition fee, knowing they’ll never earn enough to have to pay the loan back.
Ah right, didn’t appreciate that. Well, that’s even worse! It’s cunning premeditation on the part of the retirees!
To Quote that great philosopher David Brent
Remember that age and treachery will always triumph over youth and ability
Quality. Some old boy stepped out in front of me earlier, he pointed his finger at me then banged my bonnet . Then carried on at 0.75 mph across the road. Just sat there smiling, bemused. I wonder at what point you turn into a complete mentalist. Wonder when that’ll happen to me? . Maybe he thought I was German halftrack.
Freight Dog:
Would prefer it myself if they set aside that money to show some positive interest in a state pension for the younguns of today. By the time they retire, a free degree is going to be the least of their worries.
Obviously economics is not your strong point then is it, the mere fact that you are posting comments on any educational benefits is laughable on its own, there will be no state pension funds for when my age retires let alone for the younger generation. How much do you anticipate the government should put aside annually for the younger generations state pension then?
Freight Dog:
Would prefer it myself if they set aside that money to show some positive interest in a state pension for the younguns of today. By the time they retire, a free degree is going to be the least of their worries.
Obviously economics is not your strong point then is it, the mere fact that you are posting comments on any educational benefits is laughable on its own, there will be no state pension funds for when my age retires let alone for the younger generation. How much do you anticipate the government should put aside annually for the younger generations state pension then?
You’re just sore I picked on your video thread
I don’t think you comprehended or read what I said, rather just pick a bit up to look for a tangle. You’ve actually just repeated the point I made - they should put it aside for a pension fund. I in fact cited in that very post the lack of benefits for the younger generatio…you know what? Did you actually even read my post at all?
Why is it laughable that I comment on educational benefits?
Freight Dog:
Would prefer it myself if they set aside that money to show some positive interest in a state pension for the younguns of today. By the time they retire, a free degree is going to be the least of their worries.
Obviously economics is not your strong point then is it, the mere fact that you are posting comments on any educational benefits is laughable on its own, there will be no state pension funds for when my age retires let alone for the younger generation. How much do you anticipate the government should put aside annually for the younger generations state pension then?
You’re just sore I picked on your video thread
I don’t think you comprehended what I said, rather just pick a bit up to look for a tangle. You’ve actually just repeated the point I made - they should put it aside for a pension fund.
Why is it laughable that I comment on educational benefits?
Freight Dog:
Would prefer it myself if they set aside that money to show some positive interest in a state pension for the younguns of today. By the time they retire, a free degree is going to be the least of their worries.
Obviously economics is not your strong point then is it, the mere fact that you are posting comments on any educational benefits is laughable on its own, there will be no state pension funds for when my age retires let alone for the younger generation. How much do you anticipate the government should put aside annually for the younger generations state pension then?
You’re just sore I picked on your video thread
I don’t think you comprehended what I said, rather just pick a bit up to look for a tangle. You’ve actually just repeated the point I made - they should put it aside for a pension fund.
Why is it laughable that I comment on educational benefits?
Captain Caveman 76:
As someone who’s spent the past twenty years paying off their university fees, it’s a bit of a kick in the teeth seeing other people get it for free. A bt like my neighbours who’ve never done a days work in their life but still have the large screen tv, sky package, ipads for each brat, oops, I mean kid, etc.
This is the kernel of it, the wisdom (lack of) that I think they need to look at. Degrees for young people full of mental vitality and potential to go on and do great things for society are already very expensive things. To offer them free, at the behest of the public ■■■■■, to a generation in their twilight years enjoying a retirement, is a bit fishy on the justification of spending stakes. I don’t buy that keeping them alive for more years will offset the cost. And I don’t particularly subscribe to the idea that a mass of free degrees (not the singers) will nett a mass of retirees suddenly alleviating their burden on the health system. Using a mind does aid health, but it’s all a bit subjective to say it’ll cover its costs.
All it is, is a nice cosy little idea, giving this relatively historic bubble of retirees the chance to study 3 years of ancient Roman history - if it were from money grown on the magic little money tree. But it’s not.
A counter argument I read is that many of this generation were deprived from higher education due to the social and financial barriers of the day. This is an arguable point. However, also arguable is expecting a young generation with potential to pay for this just on the point of principle, who will themselves be deprived of this concept of retirement the likes of the last few generations enjoyed.
I think a big part of is is the bums on seats mentality. Since universities are pretty much self funding now, any drop in students hits them hard. Frankly, IMO it’s simply a way of fiddling the system and getting more money through the doors of learning establishments.
This ain’t one can of worms it’s a whole skip load of seagull fodder. Governments failing to close loopholes so their potential voters benefit? Surely not.
Usefulness of degrees?
For how long have we been told (by people at the top with useless degrees) that the type of degree isn’t relevant: it’s an indication of intelligence. That’s why we have Classics degree holders supervising investors in banking… That worked well didn’t it? And rather than admit their shortcomings they perpetuate a foolish system.
We have politicians (all parties) with degrees in Classics etc who can hardly add 2+2 but think the sun shines from anyone who can quote Shakespeare. Again myths are perpetuated when politico A says politico B is a genius and politico B incredibly says A is super intelligent. I’m glad these clowns tell us hoe clever each other is because looking at what they do, and hearing what they say I’d have them down as idiots!
Gotta go, Alfie Moore to listen to.
Great response folks…but i did a bit of research yesterday, and it put me on a downer…seems that to enter the scheme, most unis want a minimum 4 GCEs…whatever they are, i ahvnt got one let alone 4, so its only for those with brains…not truck drivers…is that a case for discrimination ■■ might have to do a bit more research lol.
Franglais:
This ain’t one can of worms it’s a whole skip load of seagull fodder. Governments failing to close loopholes so their potential voters benefit? Surely not.
Usefulness of degrees?
For how long have we been told (by people at the top with useless degrees) that the type of degree isn’t relevant: it’s an indication of intelligence. That’s why we have Classics degree holders supervising investors in banking… That worked well didn’t it? And rather than admit their shortcomings they perpetuate a foolish system.
We have politicians (all parties) with degrees in Classics etc who can hardly add 2+2 but think the sun shines from anyone who can quote Shakespeare. Again myths are perpetuated when politico A says politico B is a genius and politico B incredibly says A is super intelligent. I’m glad these clowns tell us hoe clever each other is because looking at what they do, and hearing what they say I’d have them down as idiots!
Gotta go, Alfie Moore to listen to.
Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
Whose Alfie Moore? Couldn’t put it better myself. Take economists, they can never agree what should be done and only about 20% spotted the crash in 2008.
I said before that I can understand some free degrees, but there has to be a value. In terms of us older folk, I’m not sure there is a value - we won’t use them and you can learn all sorts for either free or heavily discounted in other places.
Sorry, Alfie Moore is way off subject: 30min slot on BBC R4. Real ex-copper talking about real world policing. TWOCing today, not his best. Drunk and disorderly the other week was funny.
Economics isn’t a “hard science” although manu economists kid on that it is. In a science pulling a lever always has the same predictable effect. Econpmics clearly isn’t like that. And it’s not just that the machine the lever is attached to is a big one with lots of cogs, it’s also thst the assumptions traditional economists make are (demonstrably) false. Adam Smith talks of individuals who always act in their own best interest. They don’t. WE don’t!
When you’ve space on your reading list Albion and all:
Ha Joon Chang.
23 things they don’t tell you about economics and capitalism.
Dan Ariely.
Predictably irrational.
First book paints a picture of the world that I see around me.
Second book describes me. Much as I wish/imagine otherwise, it’s me.
Sigmund Freud and Adam Smith have both attracted followers who seem evangelical in their support in spite of lack of evidence of their contentions.
For my money J.K. Gilbraith has a more realistic world view.
But, work calls, enough of my nonsense for now.
.
