A few more comments on TSP 35 (workshop manual). There is no index so I can’t find a list of models covered. However, going through the sections I can find references named by their cabs rather than by their chassis. These include:
3LV, 4LV, 5LV, 6LV, 7LV and 8LV; plus
5MW, 6MW, 7MW and 8MW.
The sections cover only certain aspects (for instance, engines and chassis are hardly mentioned. The sections are:
G = Lubrication (about the only place where engines are mentioned). The tractor unit diagram appears to show an A-series.
H = Transmissions with added inserts provided by Fuller and David Brown; plus clutches by Lipe and Spicer
I = Electrical
J = Chassis (a couple of pages saying very little)
K = cabs
L = suspension
ERF-NGC-European:
Just been reading through the tilt cab mechanism section. It appears that the elusive 8MW cab tilted. That might mean that it wasn’t used to replace fixed MW cabs as we once speculated. Indeed, it might simply mean that they were replacement ‘loose’ 7MW cabs and nothing more. We know that they were identical in pretty-well every respect. It seems increasingly unlikely that 8MW cabs replaced any of the following: Pountain’s 6MW beast, Loste’s Pacific, Hye’s 5MW or anything other than an NGC with a damaged cab that needed replacing.
Here below is the opening page of the tilting cab section, clearly stating 7MW/8MW. It goes on in detail for several pages and at no time does it state that there is any difference between the 7 and 8MW. I’ve checked with the cab interior documents and parts catalogue etc and they all show the same evidence of the 7MW and 8MW being an identical cab. Robert
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Would that still leave the possibility that it could have been used to convert/modify other types using a custom made mounting kit.
Well we can’t rule that out, of course. Though you would have thought ERF would mention such a kit and how to use it in the workshop manual. The thing is, the examples I gave are all very different: one was an American Pacific so that would deffo be a one-off conversion; one was Pountain’s MDC with RHD and a 6MW cab which was set back - so that must have been an engineering one-off too; and the other one I mentioned was an MCC with LHD and a 5MW cab which I imagine might have been the easiest of the three to fit a 7MW (8MW) cab to (we still lack any evidence of that one). It’s still a mystery! Robert
ERF-NGC-European:
Well we can’t rule that out, of course. Though you would have thought ERF would mention such a kit and how to use it in the workshop manual. The thing is, the examples I gave are all very different: one was an American Pacific so that would deffo be a one-off conversion; one was Pountain’s MDC with RHD and a 6MW cab which was set back - so that must have been an engineering one-off too; and the other one I mentioned was an MCC with LHD and a 5MW cab which I imagine might have been the easiest of the three to fit a 7MW (8MW) cab to (we still lack any evidence of that one). It’s still a mystery! Robert
What if ERF only supplied the cab and left it all up to the customer to fit it.Also was the 8 MW made/offered in both rhd or lhd form as part of being intended as a loose cab conversion/replacement product ?.Also what if it was a way of getting rid of loads of unwanted cabs knowing that the NGC production run would finish long before available,if unfinished,cab production/stocks had been used.On that note was the 8MW cab available from the start of NGC production or only later ?.
ERF-NGC-European:
Well we can’t rule that out, of course. Though you would have thought ERF would mention such a kit and how to use it in the workshop manual. The thing is, the examples I gave are all very different: one was an American Pacific so that would deffo be a one-off conversion; one was Pountain’s MDC with RHD and a 6MW cab which was set back - so that must have been an engineering one-off too; and the other one I mentioned was an MCC with LHD and a 5MW cab which I imagine might have been the easiest of the three to fit a 7MW (8MW) cab to (we still lack any evidence of that one). It’s still a mystery! Robert
What if ERF only supplied the cab and left it all up to the customer to fit it.Also was the 8 MW made/offered in both rhd or lhd form as part of being intended as a loose cab conversion/replacement product ?.Also what if it was a way of getting rid of loads of unwanted cabs knowing that the NGC production run would finish long before available,if unfinished,cab production/stocks had been used.On that note was the 8MW cab available from the start of NGC production or only later ?.
An interesting challenge, CF! Documentation shows that the 8MW cab was available quite early on. The 8MW cab was clearly a LHD-only option: I have argued elsewhere on this thread that Peter Foden refused to countenance a RHD version of the NGC. The 8MW was clearly a replica of the 7MW cab. As for shedding the last 7MW cabs; you only have to look at the trouble Trans Arabia had in sourcing ERF NGCs for its operation in Jeddah! I reckon the 8MW was a straight replacement for damaged 7MW cabs; though why ERF chose to break with its code of using even numbers for set-back cabs remains a disturbing inconsistency! Robert
Glad you finally found a manual ! From what you have said it seems that there manuals covered
several different models. It also sounds like there may still be another manual to find with regard
to the engines etc ■■
Carryfast has raised some intresting points there about the cab ? Surely there must be someone
Robert that you know who worked at ERF,that can answer your queries on the 8MW cab ■■
ERF-NGC-European:
A few items from the workshop manual. Robert
The first one challenges the claim that a certain Swiss NGC had circuit-breakers instead of fuses!
The manual indicates that it was fitted with fuses. However i wonder if the one Harry had which is
what i assume you are talking about,was possibly a very early model and maybe they did have circuit
breakers fitted. They may have been updated on newer models with fuses ■■
I would have a word with Chris Till and see what he says about them as one driver told me they had
electrical problems with there NGC but i cant remember if it was a English or French driver ■■
DEANB:
Glad you finally found a manual ! From what you have said it seems that there manuals covered
several different models. It also sounds like there may still be another manual to find with regard
to the engines etc ■■
Carryfast has raised some intresting points there about the cab ? Surely there must be someone
Robert that you know who worked at ERF,that can answer your queries on the 8MW cab ■■
ERF-NGC-European:
A few items from the workshop manual. Robert
The first one challenges the claim that a certain Swiss NGC had circuit-breakers instead of fuses!
The manual indicates that it was fitted with fuses. However i wonder if the one Harry had which is
what i assume you are talking about,was possibly a very early model and maybe they did have circuit
breakers fitted. They may have been updated on newer models with fuses ■■
I would have a word with Chris Till and see what he says about them as one driver told me they had
electrical problems with there NGC but i cant remember if it was a English or French driver ■■
In answer to your first question, all we know from ERF about the 8MW cabs is that just two were exported to the Continent loose. That was reported by Barry the archivist. They may well be the only ones ever produced.
As for the fuses, I’ve spoken to NGC fitters who all report that they had fuses only. Harry drove all sorts of ancient Henschels and things abroad and he might have crossed a wire somewhere!
Robert
Looks like an ERF NGC on this you tube video on the crow carrying thread. It’s at about 5.00 obviously in Europe green and white colour scheme its only a fleeting shot though. youtube.com/watch?v=a7vMSx2XKZQ
jshepguis:
Robert
Looks like an ERF NGC on this you tube video on the crow carrying thread. It’s at about 5.00 obviously in Europe green and white colour scheme its only a fleeting shot though. youtube.com/watch?v=a7vMSx2XKZQ
Thank you for taking the time and trouble to share that with us. I don’t what others think, but it looks like a Dutch FTF with the low/wide Motor Panels cab that looks similar to the 7MW cab on an NGC. Nice bit of old film, by the way! Robert
Here is a summary of what we know about the 8MW and what we think we know.
A. Facts we know about 8MW:
That it tilted and was identical to the 7MW, according to the manuals
That two loose 8MW cabs were dispatched by ERF to Belgium (probably to CDB)
B. Belgian operators who ran 7MW-cabbed ERFs (ie NGCs) that might have required replacement (eg following an accident):
Marcel Eyckmans (1)
Van Steenbergen (6)
De Meulemeester (1)
Thibaut (1)
CDB demo (1)
Guwez (1)
Wagner (poss. 1)
? ex-Luff/LTL [F] (1)
C. Suggestion:
It has been further suggested that two ERF MCC units with 3MW cabs may have subsequently received 7MW-type cabs and that these may account for the 2 loose 8MWs. They were operated by Hye and by Van Driesche.
ERF-NGC-European:
It has been further suggested that two ERF MCC units with 3MW cabs may have subsequently received 7MW-type cabs and that these may account for the 2 loose 8MWs. They were operated by Hye and by Van Driesche.
Robert
That seems to raise another question in that updating lesser MP cabbed ERF’s with the 8 MW cab should have been a no brainer choice,such as v buying something like an F88.I’m surprised that operation didn’t take off to be a massive earner for ERF.
It seems likely that the 8MW was a 7, with a kit of parts to.facilitate ots mounting onto a non-tilt cab chassis. Lorries built with 7MW cabs would have chassis adapted for it. Maybe fixed-cab chassis had some detail features which made the fitting of a 7MW cab impossible, somehow.
[zb]
anorak:
It seems likely that the 8MW was a 7, with a kit of parts to.facilitate ots mounting onto a non-tilt cab chassis. Lorries built with 7MW cabs would have chassis adapted for it. Maybe fixed-cab chassis had some detail features which made the fitting of a 7MW cab impossible, somehow.
[zb]
anorak:
Did some of them have different chassis widths? Parallel vs. waisted chassis?
As far as I can ascertain, all the known NGCs seem to have had the standard waisted chassis. Oddly, the older straight-frame chassis is offered in early brochures but this seems to have remained the province of 5MW-cabbed chassis. R
[zb]
anorak:
If the vehicles alll left the factory with waisted chassis’, then the 8MW might be a retro-fit cab for straight chassis’.
I’m not convinced that the straight-vs-waisted chassis is a relevant factor, as the chassis starts to become waisted aft of the cab - see diagram plan below. The early brochures offered the NGC with the heavy-duty waisted chassis at 42 tonnes gross; and a lighter straight-framed chassis as an option. It is my belief that this option wasn’t taken up because a cheaper, lighter 5MW-cabbed (ie fixed sleeper) alternative was already available. Even on paper, any straight-frame NGC chassis would have been designed to accept the 7MW tilting cab. There would have been no need to produce a different cab for it.
ERF-NGC-European:
Ash’s model, still sticky, is looking tantalisingly nice! Robert
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Looking good now !
Think this may be a new pic of John Simmon’s one.
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Yes! That’s a new picture Dean. It always looked slightly odd in pictures of it pulling that trailer because the trailer dolly sometimes made it look as if the unit was a 6x4 (it was a 4x2 of course ). Robert
From what you have said it seems that there manuals covered
Robert
That’s a new picture Dean. It always looked slightly odd in pictures of it pulling that trailer because the trailer dolly sometimes made it look as if the unit was a 6x4 (it was a 4x2 of course