gingerfold:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You’re being a tad unfair here Ramone. The (new) Leyland Tiger coach was introduced in 1981 to replace the Leopard and Reliance and it remained in production to 1992. It offered a range of engine options, mid-chassis under floor mounted. Leyland TL11, Gardner 6HLXCT, and from 1987 ■■■■■■■ L10. Transmissions options were Leyland Hydrocyclic, Voith, and ZF. Volvo bought Leyland Bus in 1988 and used its THD100 engine, replacing the TL11 and Gardner options.
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Which effectively just meant the foreign competition buying the domestic manufacturers’ order books,they didn’t want the domestic production capacity and then replacing the domestic products with their own.While the government allowed ( invited ) them to do it.
gingerfold:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You’re being a tad unfair here Ramone. The (new) Leyland Tiger coach was introduced in 1981 to replace the Leopard and Reliance and it remained in production to 1992. It offered a range of engine options, mid-chassis under floor mounted. Leyland TL11, Gardner 6HLXCT, and from 1987 ■■■■■■■ L10. Transmissions options were Leyland Hydrocyclic, Voith, and ZF. Volvo bought Leyland Bus in 1988 and used its THD100 engine, replacing the TL11 and Gardner options.
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What i was trying to put across Graham is they had an answer to the B10 Volvo before it was introduced here obviously with hindsight because they built the Sabre so they must at the time have been thinking in the right area so a high powered coach was in their heads. The Tiger came 8 years too late maybe ?
By that time the decision had already been taken long before for a planned run down and handover to the foreign competition.They obviously weren’t going to do anything to contradict that.Similar MO to the Leyand DAF truck division handover.
gingerfold:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You’re being a tad unfair here Ramone. The (new) Leyland Tiger coach was introduced in 1981 to replace the Leopard and Reliance and it remained in production to 1992. It offered a range of engine options, mid-chassis under floor mounted. Leyland TL11, Gardner 6HLXCT, and from 1987 ■■■■■■■ L10. Transmissions options were Leyland Hydrocyclic, Voith, and ZF. Volvo bought Leyland Bus in 1988 and used its THD100 engine, replacing the TL11 and Gardner options.
0
What i was trying to put across Graham is they had an answer to the B10 Volvo before it was introduced here obviously with hindsight because they built the Sabre so they must at the time have been thinking in the right area so a high powered coach was in their heads. The Tiger came 8 years too late maybe ?
The British commercial vehicle industry was 8 or more years behind the Europeans and Swedish marques from about 1970, and outdated models soldiered on for too long. Partly driven (pardon the pun) it has to be said by many operators who were too loyal to their longstanding preferred marques, and they were reluctant to change. I can certainly see that with the benefit of hindsight. Brand loyalty is commendable in many respects, but in the very long term it can work against the purchaser.
gingerfold:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You’re being a tad unfair here Ramone. The (new) Leyland Tiger coach was introduced in 1981 to replace the Leopard and Reliance and it remained in production to 1992. It offered a range of engine options, mid-chassis under floor mounted. Leyland TL11, Gardner 6HLXCT, and from 1987 ■■■■■■■ L10. Transmissions options were Leyland Hydrocyclic, Voith, and ZF. Volvo bought Leyland Bus in 1988 and used its THD100 engine, replacing the TL11 and Gardner options.
0
What i was trying to put across Graham is they had an answer to the B10 Volvo before it was introduced here obviously with hindsight because they built the Sabre so they must at the time have been thinking in the right area so a high powered coach was in their heads. The Tiger came 8 years too late maybe ?
The British commercial vehicle industry was 8 or more years behind the Europeans and Swedish marques from about 1970, and outdated models soldiered on for too long. Partly driven (pardon the pun) it has to be said by many operators who were too loyal to their longstanding preferred marques, and they were reluctant to change. I can certainly see that with the benefit of hindsight. Brand loyalty is commendable in many respects, but in the very long term it can work against the purchaser.
All said and done why did they bother with the Sabre in the first place , was it around 1970 ? Anyway could this be AECs forward thinking being put back in its box by the Leyland hierachy after all if the V8 had have been successful the Sabre would surely have been ahead of its time
ramone:
All said and done why did they bother with the Sabre in the first place , was it around 1970 ? Anyway could this be AECs forward thinking being put back in its box by the Leyland hierachy after all if the V8 had have been successful the Sabre would surely have been ahead of its time
I might get flamed for this but might as well have put an AEC badge on an imported Greyhound bus with already proven Detroit power both two stroke and later 60 series then go for local production.But no the decision had already been taken to hand the domestic market over to the Euro competition.
The Sabre was by far the most powerful coach made in the UK in 1970 when it was announced. The compact V8 engine was mounted on a platform that allowed it to slide out of its rear compartment. The sole survivor is now a unique coach, there isn’t another like it. From the photo below it has had a makeover. Kemps have owned it for many years.
During my time as a driver with Ribble at the Wigan depot in the late 1960s, there were about 15 Leyland Leopard buses,
some were 3 pedal, and some were 2 pedal. These were also 2 Leyland Leopard DP coaches, fleet numbers 899 and 900,
these were 5 speed and 2 pedal. I found them all good machines to drive. Ray Smyth.
The Sabre was by far the most powerful coach made in the UK in 1970 when it was announced. The compact V8 engine was mounted on a platform that allowed it to slide out of its rear compartment. The sole survivor is now a unique coach, there isn’t another like it. From the photo below it has had a makeover. Kemps have owned it for many years.
1
0
Well maybe space was the issue Graham or maybe they didn’t consider it , i would imagine it was a flying machine do you know how many were made ?
The Sabre was by far the most powerful coach made in the UK in 1970 when it was announced. The compact V8 engine was mounted on a platform that allowed it to slide out of its rear compartment. The sole survivor is now a unique coach, there isn’t another like it. From the photo below it has had a makeover. Kemps have owned it for many years.
1
0
Well maybe space was the issue Graham or maybe they didn’t consider it , i would imagine it was a flying machine do you know how many were made ?
There were four chassis numbers issued but there is dispute if all four were actually built. Two definitely were, the Kemp’s Sabre and one that went to Black and white, Queensland Australia. The two uncertainties were for Portugal, which is feasible because AEC had most of the bus business in Portugal with UTIC. The fourth one was for Israel which is very unlikely because AEC supplied Arab countries at that time. Leyland had a lot of business in Israel so anything made by AEC would have had to have all reference to AEC removed from it, components, part numbers etc. etc.
The Sabre was by far the most powerful coach made in the UK in 1970 when it was announced. The compact V8 engine was mounted on a platform that allowed it to slide out of its rear compartment. The sole survivor is now a unique coach, there isn’t another like it. From the photo below it has had a makeover. Kemps have owned it for many years.
1
0
Well maybe space was the issue Graham or maybe they didn’t consider it , i would imagine it was a flying machine do you know how many were made ?
There were four chassis numbers issued but there is dispute if all four were actually built. Two definitely were, the Kemp’s Sabre and one that went to Black and white, Queensland Australia. The two uncertainties were for Portugal, which is feasible because AEC had most of the bus business in Portugal with UTIC. The fourth one was for Israel which is very unlikely because AEC supplied Arab countries at that time. Leyland had a lot of business in Israel so anything made by AEC would have had to have all reference to AEC removed from it, components, part numbers etc. etc.
How did the Kemps Sabre perform , was it dogged by the familiar V8 problems ,and were there any accounts of it from the drivers. I’m fascinated with AEC at this time and think it’s frustrating to see what may have been
ramone:
How did the Kemps Sabre perform , was it dogged by the familiar V8 problems ,and were there any accounts of it from the drivers. I’m fascinated with AEC at this time and think it’s frustrating to see what may have been
My guess is that it would probably have worked better in light truck and PSV applications.Although at best the question of its dodgy cooling system would always have been there especially in hot climates.
ramone:
How did the Kemps Sabre perform , was it dogged by the familiar V8 problems ,and were there any accounts of it from the drivers. I’m fascinated with AEC at this time and think it’s frustrating to see what may have been
My guess is that it would probably have worked better in light truck and PSV applications.Although at best the question of its dodgy cooling system would always have been there especially in hot climates.
This isn’t a platform for another of your ridiculous posts , i’m asking question to people who actually know what they are talking about .
The Sabre was by far the most powerful coach made in the UK in 1970 when it was announced. The compact V8 engine was mounted on a platform that allowed it to slide out of its rear compartment. The sole survivor is now a unique coach, there isn’t another like it. From the photo below it has had a makeover. Kemps have owned it for many years.
1
0
Well maybe space was the issue Graham or maybe they didn’t consider it , i would imagine it was a flying machine do you know how many were made ?
There were four chassis numbers issued but there is dispute if all four were actually built. Two definitely were, the Kemp’s Sabre and one that went to Black and white, Queensland Australia. The two uncertainties were for Portugal, which is feasible because AEC had most of the bus business in Portugal with UTIC. The fourth one was for Israel which is very unlikely because AEC supplied Arab countries at that time. Leyland had a lot of business in Israel so anything made by AEC would have had to have all reference to AEC removed from it, components, part numbers etc. etc.
How did the Kemps Sabre perform , was it dogged by the familiar V8 problems ,and were there any accounts of it from the drivers. I’m fascinated with AEC at this time and think it’s frustrating to see what may have been
I’ve just been looking through the CM archives and found an article from 1976 titled lets build a super coach it’s quite interesting and the author suggests an AEC Reliance with a TL12 as the basis
windrush:
What was the difference between the Bristol Lodekka and the Dennis Loline? They looked basically similar (and I know that Bristols were not available to non national companies) but one large bus company in my home town ran Lodekka’s and seemed to like them wheras the corporation had Lolines and everyone in the repair shop seemed to hate the things!
Pete.
The Loline was a Lodekka built under licence, so that it could be sold to non-nationalised operators
Having seen the Sabre at an AEC Society Rally its engine compartment is quite spacious and it was well vented, so air circulation around the engine was much better than the Mandator V8 engine installation. The radiator appeared to be about twice the capacity of a Mandator V8 radiator, so Carryfast does make a valid point earlier about engine operating constraints and cooling. The Sabre has an ECW body so it is heavier by about 1 ton than a contemporary AH760 Reliance, but with 247 bhp on tap that is not an issue. Incidentally it has the same back axle and double reduction diff as used in the Mercury 26 tons gvw tractor unit, also the 24 tons gvw 6x2 Marshal, so it’s a red herring to say that the Reliance had a back axle that wouldn’t take extra power. The AEC / Maudslay back axle design was a well engineered, robust, and reliable unit. Those same axles became the basis of Rockwell axles when Leyland sold the Maudslay plant at Great Alne to Rockwell, who incidentally were quite happy to host an Autumn AEC Rally one year. The reason the AEC / Maudslay axle wasn’t used in the Marathon was because it’s design and engineering quality made it more costly to manufacture than other Leyland group axles.
The Sabre was new to a London operator and Kemp’s bought it second hand. I don’t think that in Kemp’s ownership it ever did much serious coaching work, but some PSV enthusiasts will know its operational life.
windrush:
What was the difference between the Bristol Lodekka and the Dennis Loline? They looked basically similar (and I know that Bristols were not available to non national companies) but one large bus company in my home town ran Lodekka’s and seemed to like them wheras the corporation had Lolines and everyone in the repair shop seemed to hate the things!
Pete.
The Loline was a Lodekka built under licence, so that it could be sold to non-nationalised operators [/quote]
Yes I know that but I wondered if there was a difference mechanically. However, apart from some engine options, I’m informed that they were the same. A ‘mechanics nightmare’ apparently!
gingerfold:
Having seen the Sabre at an AEC Society Rally its engine compartment is quite spacious and it was well vented, so air circulation around the engine was much better than the Mandator V8 engine installation. The radiator appeared to be about twice the capacity of a Mandator V8 radiator, so Carryfast does make a valid point earlier about engine operating constraints and cooling. The Sabre has an ECW body so it is heavier by about 1 ton than a contemporary AH760 Reliance, but with 247 bhp on tap that is not an issue. Incidentally it has the same back axle and double reduction diff as used in the Mercury 26 tons gvw tractor unit, also the 24 tons gvw 6x2 Marshal, so it’s a red herring to say that the Reliance had a back axle that wouldn’t take extra power. The AEC / Maudslay back axle design was a well engineered, robust, and reliable unit. Those same axles became the basis of Rockwell axles when Leyland sold the Maudslay plant at Great Alne to Rockwell, who incidentally were quite happy to host an Autumn AEC Rally one year. The reason the AEC / Maudslay axle wasn’t used in the Marathon was because it’s design and engineering quality made it more costly to manufacture than other Leyland group axles.
The Sabre was new to a London operator and Kemp’s bought it second hand. I don’t think that in Kemp’s ownership it ever did much serious coaching work, but some PSV enthusiasts will know its operational life.
The Queensland export order’s ? service life might provide some interesting answers regarding the V8 saga. Although my guess is it was always going to be on the back foot v Detroit in the day bus or truck.
Hopefully cav might appreciate this more than Ramone.
windrush:
What was the difference between the Bristol Lodekka and the Dennis Loline? They looked basically similar (and I know that Bristols were not available to non national companies) but one large bus company in my home town ran Lodekka’s and seemed to like them wheras the corporation had Lolines and everyone in the repair shop seemed to hate the things!
Pete.
The Loline was a Lodekka built under licence, so that it could be sold to non-nationalised operators [/quote]
Yes I know that but I wondered if there was a difference mechanically. However, apart from some engine options, I’m informed that they were the same. A ‘mechanics nightmare’ apparently!
Pete.
Hi Pete, Yes, the Bristol Lodekka was an unusual machine, particularly in the line of the transmission.
First picture shows the driveline coming down the chassis on the offside, and then dividing at the diff
to the drivewheels. The second picture shows the diff is further up the chassis, and the driveline going
rearwards and across from this point. I believe the Lodekka was a reliable vehicle, they had a choice
of engines from the start, Gardner 5LW, Gardner 6LW, Bristols own engine, and later, some were fitted
with Gardner 6LX. Ray.
gingerfold:
Having seen the Sabre at an AEC Society Rally its engine compartment is quite spacious and it was well vented, so air circulation around the engine was much better than the Mandator V8 engine installation. The radiator appeared to be about twice the capacity of a Mandator V8 radiator, so Carryfast does make a valid point earlier about engine operating constraints and cooling. The Sabre has an ECW body so it is heavier by about 1 ton than a contemporary AH760 Reliance, but with 247 bhp on tap that is not an issue. Incidentally it has the same back axle and double reduction diff as used in the Mercury 26 tons gvw tractor unit, also the 24 tons gvw 6x2 Marshal, so it’s a red herring to say that the Reliance had a back axle that wouldn’t take extra power. The AEC / Maudslay back axle design was a well engineered, robust, and reliable unit. Those same axles became the basis of Rockwell axles when Leyland sold the Maudslay plant at Great Alne to Rockwell, who incidentally were quite happy to host an Autumn AEC Rally one year. The reason the AEC / Maudslay axle wasn’t used in the Marathon was because it’s design and engineering quality made it more costly to manufacture than other Leyland group axles.
The Sabre was new to a London operator and Kemp’s bought it second hand. I don’t think that in Kemp’s ownership it ever did much serious coaching work, but some PSV enthusiasts will know its operational life.
The Queensland export order’s ? service life might provide some interesting answers regarding the V8 saga. Although my guess is it was always going to be on the back foot v Detroit in the day bus or truck.
Hopefully cav might appreciate this more than Ramone.
My point was that AEC had the vision of and realising building a high powered coach , something no other British or foreign manufacturer at the time were doing or making available over here. We all no the V8 power unit wasnt any good due to reasons discussed at length in another thread. What Im trying to say is that when the TL12 was launched surely someone must have thought about dropping it in the Sabre having spent money developing the chassis and not being able to use it . The TL12 would have been well on top of the job at 273 bhp but it never happened. They didn`t need to use outside supplies of engines when they had one at their disposal
windrush:
What was the difference between the Bristol Lodekka and the Dennis Loline? They looked basically similar (and I know that Bristols were not available to non national companies) but one large bus company in my home town ran Lodekka’s and seemed to like them wheras the corporation had Lolines and everyone in the repair shop seemed to hate the things!
Pete.
The Loline was a Lodekka built under licence, so that it could be sold to non-nationalised operators [/quote]
Yes I know that but I wondered if there was a difference mechanically. However, apart from some engine options, I’m informed that they were the same. A ‘mechanics nightmare’ apparently!
Pete.
Hi Pete, Yes, the Bristol Lodekka was an unusual machine, particularly in the line of the transmission.
First picture shows the driveline coming down the chassis on the offside, and then dividing at the diff
to the drivewheels. The second picture shows the diff is further up the chassis, and the driveline going
rearwards and across from this point. I believe the Lodekka was a reliable vehicle, they had a choice
of engines from the start, Gardner 5LW, Gardner 6LW, Bristols own engine, and later, some were fitted
with Gardner 6LX. Ray.
Sorry Ray but the transmission line you describe was standard industry practice for all low body double decker chassis, and also for most standard height bodied chassis. There’s nothing unusual about that layout.
