Blunder Man:
I know there are idiots among the ranks, but then there are idiots in every industry, there are 600 + in the house of commons, /quote]Get it right BM !! 599 + cos Dennis Skinner is a 100% ok type geezer …
I agree with every word said, myself has 31 years on the road both national and international, yes your right about pay a decent hourly rate and drivers will not only look after the company but it’s customers. You cannot fault a driver who gets a better rate via a agency, agency drivers get £11 to £9 doing abbey work, don’t want to be trained up loading or tipping tanks as a chauffeur why would he. Abbeylogisticsgroup not only pay £9 per hour they stop one hour a day for breaks on the overtime rate…
Of 23 staff, only one has come from a job advert, though I’ve never paid anyone for an introduction.
Fairly standard clause to specify training be repaid, if it’s a transferable skill, why would an employer subsidise their competition.
We are pretty lean management wise, but there is more crap admin to deal with. I spent half a day filling in some complete b0ll0x from one of my customers about my anti slavery policy, my anti bribery policy and my human rights policy. Couldn’t make it up.
albion:
I spent half a day filling in some complete b0ll0x from one of my customers about my anti slavery policy, my anti bribery policy and my human rights policy. Couldn’t make it up.
My policies are:
Anti-slavery - I won’t do it for less than what it costs to do!
Anti bribery - cross my palm with silver and I’ll write something out.
Human rights - it’s the law, it’s morally right, I do it.
Would this not be enough??
As for repaying training etc. It costs at least 250 a day to train someone. Why would I spend out that money this week, for the learner to decide next week that another firm has more chrome on their wagons so they are going to do the same job for them.
Same with PPE. Ten logoed hi vis for an SME = £50 plus VAT. So I could just about stand the cost of a free hi vis to Joe Bloggs. But throw in a hard hat £7, safety glasses £3.50 boots £30 and gloves £2.50 and you are at £47.50.
Put another way, that’s two weeks worth of AdBlue, or Tachomaster for 27 wagons and 30 drivers a month, or five days hire of a sliding skel.
Now the glasses and hard hat should last for years so it’s a) very hard to put a price on remaining service life and b) pretty crappy to chase a bloke for pennies a month but I don’t see anything wrong with charging someone who walks away in my pair of boots £5 per month left of a six month service life. Why should I subsidise someone else’s business?
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@nsmith, unfortunately you have to take things seriously. Daft thing is, I’ve chatted with their sales guys and trust me, there’s been a lot of bribery been done, it’s just the way it goes in foreign countrys…better shut up now 
And there lies the problem. When you have employers who are unwilling to invest in a long term working relationship with their employees, they worry about losing £50.
Invest in the right people and you get a return on your investment. That starts at the beginning of the process with honesty, clear open policies, fairness and respect.
I don’t set the rates that you need to do business but I can help you achieve a better margin. Driving style to reduce fuel costs, attitude and respect for your property and not cause damage, be punctual and diligent to reduce down time, the list goes on.
So why pay the bare minimum, why pay me the same as someone who doesn’t care about your business? If you treat all drivers the same then you will get the drivers you deserve not the ones you need.
Honked:
And there lies the problem. When you have employers who are unwilling to invest in a long term working relationship with their employees, they worry about losing £50.Invest in the right people and you get a return on your investment. That starts at the beginning of the process with honesty, clear open policies, fairness and respect.
I don’t set the rates that you need to do business but I can help you achieve a better margin. Driving style to reduce fuel costs, attitude and respect for your property and not cause damage, be punctual and diligent to reduce down time, the list goes on.
So why pay the bare minimum, why pay me the same as someone who doesn’t care about your business? If you treat all drivers the same then you will get the drivers you deserve not the ones you need.
How do I know when I first employ you if you are one of the good ones or one of the many wastes of time which turn up. It’s easy for a slacker to look good in interview and they can usually blag their way through an assessment. I don’t know until you’ve done the job for a couple of months if you are worth the money.
And it’s not just 50 quid, there is a lot more involved than just ppe. I just knew that ppe would be a relatively small number but I could use it to illustrate my point. There is training, ni, the cost of recruitment, admin, payroll charges… The list goes on.
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I understand your troubles, I really do.
It is a given that you need to pay NI so no loss to you there. Admin, payroll and associated costs are going to be paid whoever you employ. So that leaves training and recruitment costs.
By all means put a claw back clause in for training, but make sure that training is relevant and worthwhile. I know 2 drivers at abbey who are counting down the days to leave so they don’t have to repay. I am doing the job without any training but I make sure I get the best out of any job I do, it’s not rocket science after all.
Your costs of recruitment is an area where most companies lose value, in a bid to get bums on seats they fail to offer the right money/terms, fail to screen candidates and fail to offer long term prospects with mutual benefits.
£1 an hour for O/T or nights is down to the employer not getting the right rates to pay a decent wage.
Honked:
I understand your troubles, I really do.It is a given that you need to pay NI so no loss to you there. Admin, payroll and associated costs are going to be paid whoever you employ. So that leaves training and recruitment costs.
By all means put a claw back clause in for training, but make sure that training is relevant and worthwhile. I know 2 drivers at abbey who are counting down the days to leave so they don’t have to repay. I am doing the job without any training but I make sure I get the best out of any job I do, it’s not rocket science after all.
Your costs of recruitment is an area where most companies lose value, in a bid to get bums on seats they fail to offer the right money/terms, fail to screen candidates and fail to offer long term prospects with mutual benefits.
£1 an hour for O/T or nights is down to the employer not getting the right rates to pay a decent wage.
Paying back for training is a grey area if there ever was one.
We operate a small number of vehicles and our company lawyers advised that we are legally obliged to pay for training, that if any of our staff were ever inured or injured anyone else, and were able to demonstrate that this was due to a lack of training - we wouldn’t have a legal leg to stand on.
Then there is the… if as an employer you provide equipment that requires the operation of specialist equipment, you are obliged as the employer to ensure that the operator is adequately trained in the use of that equipment in order to perform their duties efficiently and safely.
On that basis, I would say… counting the days… is not necessary and given the very low cost of a small claim in the County Court, the employee would most likely win this one.
Same applies to uniform.
If the company dictate what you wear… they have to pay for it. Claiming the cost back on a leavers wages is a no no.
People should not worry too much about the contract they signed at the start of a job. These types of contracts are NOT worth the paper they are written on. Courts already understand that a person seeking employment may be compromised into signing an unreasonable contract - that is always written for the benefit of the employer. The courts rarely consider these types of contract reasonable and almost always dismiss them.
Basically… most employers are complete ****s
Honked, you don’t understand the troubles obviously. Get the right guy and treat him right Admin is a one off cost. Keep turning over staff and you keep paying for the admin time. Same with associated costs, after all, not even Stobarts would make a new driver wear the last drivers boots, even if they were only worn once.
There is more to employing someone than salary plus a bit of ppe.
I calculated at the weekend that employing a driver for Monday to Friday tramping on 25k a year plus nights out actually costs just under 50k a year plus job specific training. That’s salary, subsistence allowance, holiday cover, cpc training and two sets of ppe a year.
That’s five grand more than the diesel bill a year at 9.5 mpg on a 160k year.
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Throw a crap driver into that equation and your figures will bankrupt you.
I said I could improve your margin, an unmotivated driver will drain it.
hkloss1:
A few days ago met one of their drivers at services, and was told they sent them all of them emails asking to recruit drivers on their behalf, and for every new driver that stays till December this year, Abbey driver that recommended him, gets £250.
Wouldn’t it be better if Abbey simply made the job more attractive in the first place, such as pay decent wages, or am I getting it wrong?A few years ago, when I enquired about working for them, I was told if I left within 1 year I would have to pay the training fee back, which at that time was £500, but I’ve heard someone saying it’s £1000, but could be wrong.
So, assuming a new driver still has to pay £500 if he leaves within the first year of employment, and Abbey has to pay their drivers £250 for referring a new driver, Abbey is still going to be quids in, but if a new driver stays long term, they still get a low wage driver working for them, possibly long term.
Your first 2 weeks is £87 a day so 435 pw the job is 2 week in hand so if you leave within a year they take £870 off you plus any cpc you do which is 2 at £100 each so £1070 is what they take off you if you leave my mate just started there but think he’s leaving soon.
nsmith1180:
Honked, you don’t understand the troubles obviously. Get the right guy and treat him right Admin is a one off cost. Keep turning over staff and you keep paying for the admin time. Same with associated costs, after all, not even Stobarts would make a new driver wear the last drivers boots, even if they were only worn once.There is more to employing someone than salary plus a bit of ppe.
I calculated at the weekend that employing a driver for Monday to Friday tramping on 25k a year plus nights out actually costs just under 50k a year plus job specific training. That’s salary, subsistence allowance, holiday cover, cpc training and two sets of ppe a year.
That’s five grand more than the diesel bill a year at 9.5 mpg on a 160k year.
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If you do it properly it doesn’t cost you a penny. Your customer pays for everything and gives you a bit on top for yourself.
TiredAndEmotional:
If you do it properly it doesn’t cost you a penny. Your customer pays for everything and gives you a bit on top for yourself.
That still costs you. After all, when the joyous day arrives that trucks can load and drive themselves, I get to keep your cut too!
nsmith1180:
Honked, you don’t understand the troubles obviously. Get the right guy and treat him right Admin is a one off cost. Keep turning over staff and you keep paying for the admin time. Same with associated costs, after all, not even Stobarts would make a new driver wear the last drivers boots, even if they were only worn once.There is more to employing someone than salary plus a bit of ppe.
I calculated at the weekend that employing a driver for Monday to Friday tramping on 25k a year plus nights out actually costs just under 50k a year plus job specific training. That’s salary, subsistence allowance, holiday cover, cpc training and two sets of ppe a year.
That’s five grand more than the diesel bill a year at 9.5 mpg on a 160k year.
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Tell you what mate; I appreciate that you’re a one man band recent start up, and believe me, I genuinely wish you all the best for the future. In fact I’d go as far as to say I honestly hope that you personally make a fortune from this game. However from reading your posts regarding employing drivers you honestly get me thinking of a kind of Victorian mill owner! You even quote a figure of £25k p/a for a five day a week tramper. What kind of driver do you think you’ll get for that pittance? I’ll tell you the type you’ll get mate; the type you deserve!
the maoster:
nsmith1180:
Honked, you don’t understand the troubles obviously. Get the right guy and treat him right Admin is a one off cost. Keep turning over staff and you keep paying for the admin time. Same with associated costs, after all, not even Stobarts would make a new driver wear the last drivers boots, even if they were only worn once.There is more to employing someone than salary plus a bit of ppe.
I calculated at the weekend that employing a driver for Monday to Friday tramping on 25k a year plus nights out actually costs just under 50k a year plus job specific training. That’s salary, subsistence allowance, holiday cover, cpc training and two sets of ppe a year.
That’s five grand more than the diesel bill a year at 9.5 mpg on a 160k year.
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Tell you what mate; I appreciate that you’re a one man band recent start up, and believe me, I genuinely wish you all the best for the future. In fact I’d go as far as to say I honestly hope that you personally make a fortune from this game. However from reading your posts regarding employing drivers you honestly get me thinking of a kind of Victorian mill owner! You even quote a figure of £25k p/a for a five day a week tramper. What kind of driver do you think you’ll get for that pittance? I’ll tell you the type you’ll get mate; the type you deserve!
Spot on.who’d want to work for him…
the maoster:
nsmith1180:
Honked, you don’t understand the troubles obviously. Get the right guy and treat him right Admin is a one off cost. Keep turning over staff and you keep paying for the admin time. Same with associated costs, after all, not even Stobarts would make a new driver wear the last drivers boots, even if they were only worn once.There is more to employing someone than salary plus a bit of ppe.
I calculated at the weekend that employing a driver for Monday to Friday tramping on 25k a year plus nights out actually costs just under 50k a year plus job specific training. That’s salary, subsistence allowance, holiday cover, cpc training and two sets of ppe a year.
That’s five grand more than the diesel bill a year at 9.5 mpg on a 160k year.
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Tell you what mate; I appreciate that you’re a one man band recent start up, and believe me, I genuinely wish you all the best for the future. In fact I’d go as far as to say I honestly hope that you personally make a fortune from this game. However from reading your posts regarding employing drivers you honestly get me thinking of a kind of Victorian mill owner! You even quote a figure of £25k p/a for a five day a week tramper. What kind of driver do you think you’ll get for that pittance? I’ll tell you the type you’ll get mate; the type you deserve!
Here here!!!
I hope you get a screwdriver and you go to the wall. A driver repaying for training and PPE kiss my A.
What wrong with the industry?? Him
25K a year for an avg of 50 hour week is £9.61.
You would have to be a cream job for that rate and they are very rare. Even container work pays more.
You want drivers who earn you money, you need to up your rates and pay them to keep you in business. The EE labour market is coming to an end.
The good news is that there are good drivers out there waiting for the bubble to burst. I am turning down work even though there’s ‘premium’ customers with terms to suit.
The terms are still advertised for easy to please drivers.
The SME’s need to switch on now if they are to survive the burst.
nsmith1180:
albion:
I spent half a day filling in some complete b0ll0x from one of my customers about my anti slavery policy, my anti bribery policy and my human rights policy. Couldn’t make it up.My policies are:
Anti-slavery - I won’t do it for less than what it costs to do!
Anti bribery - cross my palm with silver and I’ll write something out.
Human rights - it’s the law, it’s morally right, I do it.
Would this not be enough??
As for repaying training etc. It costs at least 250 a day to train someone. Why would I spend out that money this week, for the learner to decide next week that another firm has more chrome on their wagons so they are going to do the same job for them.
Same with PPE. Ten logoed hi vis for an SME = £50 plus VAT. So I could just about stand the cost of a free hi vis to Joe Bloggs. But throw in a hard hat £7, safety glasses £3.50 boots £30 and gloves £2.50 and you are at £47.50.
Put another way, that’s two weeks worth of AdBlue, or Tachomaster for 27 wagons and 30 drivers a month, or five days hire of a sliding skel.
Now the glasses and hard hat should last for years so it’s a) very hard to put a price on remaining service life and b) pretty crappy to chase a bloke for pennies a month but I don’t see anything wrong with charging someone who walks away in my pair of boots £5 per month left of a six month service life. Why should I subsidise someone else’s business?
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Why don’t you just do everyone a favour and quit the business.
If you need to be careful with every penny you spent, you shouldn’t be running your business mate, especially in haulage industry.
You are going to be doing a lot of people a favour by quiting, your competition and especially your drivers.
Drivers have three main enemies to deal with:
- Agencies.
Drivers would be so much better off without agencies around.
These are leaches , that try to undercut each other lowering, standards, drivers pay, and treating drivers badly.
- Haulage companies.
Same as above about agencies.
There is not much difference between agencies and haulage companies.
Don’t you people think you bring some value into transport.
If you weren’t around, and companies that actually require transportation of their goods, employed drivers directly, these drivers would have been on my better terms and conditions, better pay, would be treated much better, as it is the case these days with companies employing drivers directly.
Main reason of existence of most, probably all haulage companies is that someone has realised he can undercut competition on price, by lowering drivers pay, and terms and conditions of drivers employment.
The more haulage companies go to the wall, the better for every driver out there.
So, to all haulage company’s bosses on here, do yourself and everyone else a favour and just quit, fold the business and become a driver yourself, you are going to be surprised how much better this industry will become, and you are going to be getting better paid than when you were an independent operator.
- Some people think VOSA or police are our enemies. No they aren’t. They are driver’s best friend, if not for them haulage company’s bosses would run us to the ground, knowing there is no one who can put them in jail.
See I think you, and Honked, are the ones who should quit the business. Because you haven’t got a clue. Honked has delusions of grandur and you seem to think it’s every employers bounded duty to give you everything you ever wanted.
If I am going to spend out half a month’s salary just to get you on a truck, I want you there for a reasonable term. That’s logical and that’s fair to both parties. Especially as employers are no longer allowed to give a proper reference, we can either give a good reference or no reference, which means that even asking your current employer for a reference wouldn’t tell me of you are incompetent or not.
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