LGV Training Schools, EU regs and Tachographs

When I was LGV instructing the companies I worked for told me that as the truck was private and not used for hire or reward, the normal EU rules did not apply in any circumstances.
Once I got into reading the EU regs a bit more, I realised that this might not be the case so I thought I would investigate…
The answers given may be useful to others

This thread tends to err towards one view and then another so checking the last posts in the final page is recommended

Firstly, I read this -
eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 013:EN:PDF

REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 article 13
(g) vehicles used for driving instruction and examination with a view to obtaining a driving licence or a certificate of professional competence, provided that they are not being used for the commercial carriage of goods or passengers;

Then I asked VOSA a few questions —

Before answering my questions VOSA referred me to this National derogation -
opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/em/uks … 819_en.pdf

13(1)(g)
National derogation for vehicles used for driving instruction and examination with a view to obtaining a driving licence or a certificate of professional competence, provided that they are not being used for the commercial carriage of goods or passengers
Regulation 2(1)(a) and paragraph 7 of Part 1 of the Schedule of the 2007 Regulations implement this derogation. Regulation 4(1) of the 2007 Regulations exempts these vehicles from the requirement to have a tachograph.

Q1) Does a full LGV licence holder who does a refresher course need to comply with EC regulations or would they be exempt?
A1) The driver must fully comply with REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006.

Q2) Does the LGV instructor who gives driving demonstrations and drives the LGV back to base from the DSA test station need to comply with EC regulations or would they be exempt?
A2) Exempt

Q3) If yes to Q2, then what does the instructor do with the tachos after 42 days as there in no operator licence required as the vehicle is private?
A3) Only in the case of Q1 would the training school need to retain the cards/download for 1 year.

Q4) Does the LGV, which is taxed as private, need to have the tachograph equipment sealed, calibrated and two yearly checked?
A4) Sealed at all times but not required to have 2 yearly checks and 6 yearly calibrations if not used for Q1.
If used for Q1 then it must have 2 yearly checks and 6 yearly calibrations.

Q5) If yes to number 4, then does this get checked at MOT?
A5) Yes it should if used for Q1

Q6) If no to Q4 and yes to Q1 and/or Q2 then is it legal for a driver to knowingly use a LGV where the equipment is not calibrated/checked?
A6) In the case of Q1, it would be illegal for a driver who is driving under REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 to drive a vehicle where the tachograph is not compliant.
Also those that are allowing the driver to do so, including the instructor & the company, would also be liable.

Good grief Rog, have you got nothing better to do than come up with these sort of questions and then answer them yourselves!

Smart Mart:
Good grief Rog, have you got nothing better to do than come up with these sort of questions and then answer them yourselves!

Not my answers mate - they are too precise to have come from me

I bet if you asked another VOSA person, you would get different answers!

Q4) Does the LGV, which is taxed as private, need to have the tachograph equipment sealed, calibrated and two yearly checked?
A4) Sealed at all times but not required to have 2 yearly checks and 6 yearly calibrations if not used for Q1.
If used for Q1 then it must have 2 yearly checks and 6 yearly calibrations.

Interesting as have had a truck fail for the 2 year check being out of date. Also had one ignored. So, like the man said:

I bet if you asked another VOSA person, you would get different answers!

There is a form for tachograph exemption that we present at mot, and this apparently allows our trucks to pass irrespective of the normal tachograph requirements for mot.

Smart Mart:
There is a form for tachograph exemption that we present at mot, and this apparently allows our trucks to pass irrespective of the normal tachograph requirements for mot.

Corrcect but it for a full licence holder doing a refresher it MUST conform to the regs at the time when they drive it,

I don’t want to get into a debate about this, but I think it is the intrepretation that is questionable.

Might I suggest that you scan the letter from VOSA and then let us see the ‘official’ statement. Then I think it will be down to VOSA or whoever to bring a proscecution if a training school is in breach of the regs., when they have a qualified driver doing a refresher, which is probably because he doesn’t feel able/safe to drive on his own without - wouldn’t VOSA appear silly then!

Of course the regs do not appear to apply (according to the regs.), if a person is training for ‘a certificate of professional competence’ - which would mean to me that if he/she were to be going to do, for example a fuel efficiency course or safe driving course in the future as periodic training, then they would be exempt.

Peter Smythe:

Q4) Does the LGV, which is taxed as private, need to have the tachograph equipment sealed, calibrated and two yearly checked?
A4) Sealed at all times but not required to have 2 yearly checks and 6 yearly calibrations if not used for Q1.
If used for Q1 then it must have 2 yearly checks and 6 yearly calibrations.

Interesting as have had a truck fail for the 2 year check being out of date. Also had one ignored. So, like the man said:

One of ours went through yesterday…

> I bet if you asked another VOSA person, you would get different answers!
[/quote]
We do too.

> Smart Mart wrote:
> There is a form for tachograph exemption that we present at mot, and this apparently allows our trucks to pass irrespective of the normal tachograph requirements for mot.
[/quote]

Same as…

Smart Mart:
I don’t want to get into a debate about this, but I think it is the intrepretation that is questionable.

I bet if you asked another VOSA person, you would get different answers!

If anyone does not believe the info I have been given from VOSA then why not call them to confirm it

I’m sure if many do so and get the same answers I got then perhaps we can agree to what are the correct answers…

ROG:

Smart Mart:
I don’t want to get into a debate about this, but I think it is the intrepretation that is questionable.

I bet if you asked another VOSA person, you would get different answers!

If anyone does not believe the info I have been given from VOSA then why not call them to confirm it

I’m sure if many do so and get the same answers I got then perhaps we can agree to what are the correct answers…

I’m sure no-one doubts the info you have been given, Rog - merely that with my experiences with such government sponsored/run departments, they are unwilling to put anything in writing, as it is usually the persons opinion and not neccessarily that of the department. However as it doesn’t concern me overly, I won’t be contacting them.

However as it doesn’t concern me overly, I won’t be contacting them.

And i’ll not lose any sleep over it neither.

I agree that if a training school does not do refresher training for a full licence holder then it won’t concern them.

I remember having a refresher course when i worked for White Arrow,it was in house and the assessor was DSA registered from a training school and cos in was done in house all duties had to be booked as driving and other work even the assessor had to have a tacho in cos it was not his truck.

We do refresher courses from time to time, but will in future refer to them as training for a certificate of professional competance! Ok Rog.

Smart Mart:
We do refresher courses from time to time, but will in future refer to them as training for a certificate of professional competance! Ok Rog.

As long as the course is approved by the relevant authority then I cannot see a you having a problem with that

I don’t think it states that a course has to be approved, Rog, much the same as driver training doesn’t have to be approved.

Smart Mart:
I don’t think it states that a course has to be approved, Rog, much the same as driver training doesn’t have to be approved.

I assume we are taliking about the Periodic driver cpc courses and if so, all those courses MUST be approved by JAUPT.

ADD - if it is the INITIAL driver cpc then it is unlikely that the driver would have a full licence.

REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 article 13
(g) vehicles used for driving instruction and examination with a view to obtaining a driving licence or a certificate of professional competence, provided that they are not being used for the commercial carriage of goods or passengers;

That is what I was referring to Rog.

Not a course specifically to qualify for periodic training, which as you say have to be approved.

It only says with a ‘view to obtaining’.

Always dangerous to make assumptions of what I am thinking - even my wife can’t follow me most of the time.

There are two parts to this - the EU and the National -

eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex … 013:EN:PDF

REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 article 13
(g) vehicles used for driving instruction and examination with a view to obtaining a driving licence or a certificate of professional competence, provided that they are not being used for the commercial carriage of goods or passengers;

opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/em/uks … 819_en.pdf

13(1)(g)
National derogation for vehicles used for driving instruction and examination with a view to obtaining a driving licence or a certificate of professional competence, provided that they are not being used for the commercial carriage of goods or passengers
Regulation 2(1)(a) and paragraph 7 of Part 1 of the Schedule of the 2007 Regulations implement this derogation. Regulation 4(1) of the 2007 Regulations exempts these vehicles from the requirement to have a tachograph.

I am fairly sure that the cpc bit refers to the initial driver cpc but I can check if you like