working times

NEW AND WANNABE DRIVERS (INTERACTIVE)
41

A midweek weekly rest doesn’t reset your 10 hour drives, it’s 2 per fixed week and that’s it.

I didn’t know that :exclamation:

Unless i am just being a bit thick there must be something seriously wrong with all these publications on drivers hours if they still leave so many unanswered questions and confusion.

I have a couple more confusing points that have been puzzling me concerning weekly rest.

  1. You can attach a weekly rest that starts in one week and ends in another to either week. But if you attach a 45 hour weekly rest to week 2 does this mean that you would still need to have at least a 24 hour weekly rest somewhere in week 1? If not then the 45 hours would have to be attached to week 1?

  2. I am assuming you cannot split a weekly rest. So if you did 69 hours of weekly rest in which 45 hours started and ended in week 1 and 24 hours started in week 2 you could not say i’ve done my weekly rest for both weeks?

  3. But what if at midnight on sunday you did 1 hours work or drive then started a 24 hour weekly rest. At first i thought this would cause a serious problem because you can now work until the end of week 3 before you take a 45 hour weekly rest but then i realised that you cannot work for more than 6 days/shifts without taking a weekly rest. So in this situation have you “locked” yourself in to having to take another weekly rest at the same time (or thereabouts) the following week?

42

I should have looked a bit harder as i have just seen the following:

A weekly rest period that falls in two weeks may be counted in either week but not in both.
However, a rest period of at least 69 hours in total may be counted as two back-to-back weekly rests (e.g. a 45-hour weekly rest followed by 24 hours), provided that the driver does not exceed 144 hours’ work either before or after the rest period in question.

Not sure i understand the last bit though.

provided that the driver does not exceed 144 hours’ work either before or after the rest period in question.

Unless it is saying that since the previous rest period and the next one there is a limit on 144 hours work.

So the two 10 hours driving time must be within the FIXED WEEK not between any two weekly rest periods.

But the daily rest periods themselves must be between weekly rest periods no the FIXED WEEK.

F*** M*. I might become a forklift driver.

43

JS8576:

A midweek weekly rest doesn’t reset your 10 hour drives, it’s 2 per fixed week and that’s it.

I didn’t know that :exclamation:

A “week” runs from 00:00 Monday to 24:00 Sunday (midnight Sunday to midnight Sunday), having a weekly rest period doesn’t change when the week starts or ends.

You can extend the daily driving limit to 10 hours twice a week.
You can have three reduced daily rest periods between two weekly rest periods.

Some people call the time between weekly rest periods the “working week” which should not be confused with the “week” which is sometimes referred to as a “fixed week”.

JS8576:

  1. You can attach a weekly rest that starts in one week and ends in another to either week. But if you attach a 45 hour weekly rest to week 2 does this mean that you would still need to have at least a 24 hour weekly rest somewhere in week 1? If not then the 45 hours would have to be attached to week 1?

That’s correct, a 45 hour weekly rest period that crosses over two weeks can be used for either week but not both, so if you had a 45 hour weekly rest period attached to week 2 you would need a rest period of at-least 24 hours attached to week 1.

JS8576:
2) I am assuming you cannot split a weekly rest. So if you did 69 hours of weekly rest in which 45 hours started and ended in week 1 and 24 hours started in week 2 you could not say i’ve done my weekly rest for both weeks?

You cannot have a split a weekly rest period but you can have two weekly rest periods back to back which is what I think you mean.

If you had a 69 hour rest period that crosses over two weeks (crosses Sunday midnight) the first 45 hours could be used for week one and the last 24 hours could be used as a reduced weekly rest period for week two.

JS8576:
3) But what if at midnight on sunday you did 1 hours work or drive then started a 24 hour weekly rest. At first i thought this would cause a serious problem because you can now work until the end of week 3 before you take a 45 hour weekly rest but then i realised that you cannot work for more than 6 days/shifts without taking a weekly rest. So in this situation have you “locked” yourself in to having to take another weekly rest at the same time (or thereabouts) the following week?

You cannot work more than six 24 hour periods (144 hours) before starting a new weekly rest period.

If you call this six days it implies that you cannot do work on seven days which you can, if you call it six shifts it’s wrong because there’s nothing to stop you doing more than six shifts in the six 24 hour periods.

You don’t have to have a weekly rest period at the same time each week, a weekly rest period or reduced weekly rest period resets the six 24 hour periods.

JS8576:

provided that the driver does not exceed 144 hours’ work either before or after the rest period in question.

Unless it is saying that since the previous rest period and the next one there is a limit on 144 hours work.

That’s exactly what it’s saying.

You must start a new weekly rest period no later than six 24 hour periods from the end of the last weekly rest period, six 24 hour periods equals 144 hours.

44

This might help …

NEVER think in terms of shifts or days

The regs work on hours and fixed weeks known as week

There are certain rules for fixed weeks (week) and certain rules for between daily and weekly rests

Also rules for how much daily and weekly rest you must take within certain time frames

45

Further to tachograph’s and ROG’s excellent help, can I also offer some comfort that in most cases the rules you need to know depend on the work you are doing, and in general it usually isn’t as complex as you are entertaining! No harm in understanding it all, but maybe chill out a bit :wink:

Most of the time each morning if you ask yourself:

  1. Have I done any 10 hour drives since Monday 00:00 ? (tells you if you can do 10 hours driving that day or not)
  2. Have I done any reduced daily rests since my last weekly break ? (tells you if you have a reduced daily rest available)
  3. What time did I start my shift ? (add 13 hours and write down time, add 15 hours then write down time, then depending on answer to q2 you know when shift must finish by)

Other than that, take your 45 minute breaks with help of tacho, always aim for a full weekly rest and you are good. (Let’s leave WTD for now :wink:

46

You don’t have to have a weekly rest period at the same time each week, a weekly rest period or reduced weekly rest period resets the six 24 hour periods.

But if you’ve done 2 x 10 hours driving before weekly rest you cannot have any more in that fixed week?

NEVER think in terms of shifts or days

This is what people are so used to it’s difficult to break the habit.

[Bit like getting to grips with debit and credit in bookkeeping. What looks like a debit is a credit, vice-versa. We so used to getting a bank statement which we see as debits but in reality they are the banks statement of accounts.]

Not sure if that David Lowe Drivers Hours book is recent, might be incorrect info in there and still talk about having to compensate for reduced daily rest which obviously no longer necessary.

Hopefully i’ll get a nice regualr driving job or have a nice lady in the office who takes care of it all. :smiley:

I think the WTD seems very straightforward with regards to rests needed.

POA looks crazy though:

vehicle being unloaded but you have to stay with vehicle for health and safety reasons = POA
vehicle being unloaded but you have to stay with vehicle in case it needs to be moved = OW

I might have got them the wrong way around but saw that in some document while googling POA.

47

JS8576:

You don’t have to have a weekly rest period at the same time each week, a weekly rest period or reduced weekly rest period resets the six 24 hour periods.

But if you’ve done 2 x 10 hours driving before weekly rest you cannot have any more in that fixed week?

You’ve got it :wink:

POA looks crazy though:

vehicle being unloaded but you have to stay with vehicle for health and safety reasons = POA
vehicle being unloaded but you have to stay with vehicle in case it needs to be moved = OW

I might have got them the wrong way around but saw that in some document while googling POA.

I’ve no idea where you read that or why it would say it, a period of availability requires that you’re not required to remain at the the workstation, which I would say technically rules out both the scenarios you’ve mentioned.

Period of Availability - The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005

“period of availability” means a period during which the mobile worker is not required to remain at his workstation, but is
required to be available to answer any calls to start or resume driving or to carry out other work , including periods during
which the mobile worker is accompanying a vehicle being transported by a ferry or by a train as well as periods of waiting at
frontiers and those due to traffic prohibitions;

48

I think it’s sinking it (slowly :confused: ) thanks to you guys.

Found that POA stuff link below. Pasted the two examples i gave. They have a few more examples on there.

1stclassdrivers.co.uk/poa.php

Example 3

You turn up at a new depot you have never visited before only to find a long queue. You get out of the cab and ask how long you are likely to have to wait. They say two hours but tell you that you must stay with your vehicle in case you have to move it. You sit there for two hours before your turn.

POA = 0 Working time = 2

Example 4

You turn up at a new depot you have never visited before only to find a long queue. You get out of the cab and ask how long you are likely to have to wait. They say two hours but tell you that you must stay with your vehicle for saftey reasons. You sit there for two hours before your turn.

POA = 2 Working time = 0

49

Any thoughts on that POA issue above, anyone?

Also a couple more issues:

  1. I was under the impression that driving break and WTD break can double up and be used to satisfy both.
    Drive 3 hours, 45 minute break, OW 5 hours, Drive 2 hours [satisfied driving break 45 minutes/satisfied WTD of 45 minutes]

  2. Can you compensate for weekly rest IN THE SAME WEEK?

  3. You can drive 4.5 hours and then finish shift. No need for break. But with WTD you cannot take a 15 minute break and then stop work. So i assume it would be okay to take 15 minute break if one is needed then work/drive for a couple of minutes then stop?

50

JS8576:
Any thoughts on that POA issue above, anyone?

It’s an agency website and they seem to be confused.
The two examples in the above post are basically the same but they see them as being different for some reason.

As I said before a requirement of POA is that you’re not required to remain at the workstation so I don’t see why that agency sees the two scenarios differently … maybe I’m missing something

POA is quite simple really, if you’re waiting and know roughly how long you’ll be waiting, and you can leave the workstation you can book POA.

In reality if you want to book POA you probably will because no-one will know or care if you knew in advance how long you would be waiting or if you could leave the workstation :wink:
And if anyone does care you’ll lie about it :laughing:

JS8576:

  1. I was under the impression that driving break and WTD break can double up and be used to satisfy both.
    Drive 3 hours, 45 minute break, OW 5 hours, Drive 2 hours [satisfied driving break 45 minutes/satisfied WTD of 45 minutes]

Driving breaks count as WTD breaks and where appropriate vice versa.

In your example the first 45 minute break meets the WTD daily requirement for a shift of over nine hours, however you would still get an infringement because you’ve then worked seven hours without a break.
(The six hour rule states that no worker should work more than six hours without a break of at-least 15 minutes)

JS8576:
2) Can you compensate for weekly rest IN THE SAME WEEK?

Yes as long as the compensation comes after the reduced weekly rest period.

JS8576:
3) You can drive 4.5 hours and then finish shift. No need for break. But with WTD you cannot take a 15 minute break and then stop work. So i assume it would be okay to take 15 minute break if one is needed then work/drive for a couple of minutes then stop?

There’s nothing to stop you having a break at the immediate end of the shift, it just won’t count for the WTD that’s all.
If you need a WTD break at the end of the shift you would need to book a minutes other work before booking off.

51

So with the WTD you have to look forwards and backwards to make sure you take break at the right time? Whereas with driving break you only really have to look at accumulated driving.

52

JS8576:
So with the WTD you have to look forwards and backwards to make sure you take break at the right time? Whereas with driving break you only really have to look at accumulated driving.

I’m not sure what you mean, with driving breaks you look at accumulated driving time since the last break and with the six hour rule you look at accumulated working time since the last break.

Daily driving time must not exceed nine hours (10 hours twice a week), accumulated daily WTD breaks required depend on the length of the shift.

53

Came across one of your posts:

The fact that from 05:15 to 12:00 is between 6 and 9 hours is irrelevant, the 6 to 9 hours referred to in the regulations is total working time over the shift :wink:

What I seem to be doing is looking at how many hours I work, say 10 hours, deciding on how much WTD break is required and then just slotting in the 45 minutes WTD anywhere during the day either in full or in part and assuming that’s all that is required and if I’ve done a 45 minute driving break i’m also letting that double up as driving break and WTD.

With my previous example:
Add up the driving time and see if a 45 minute break is required. Why can’t I say that I drove for 3 hours and then worked for 5 hours (=8 hours) but I’ve had a break of 45 minutes of which 30 minutes satisfies WTD). The rest of work takes it over 10 but I’ve still got 15 minutes break unused. :confused:

54

JS8576:
Came across one of your posts:

The fact that from 05:15 to 12:00 is between 6 and 9 hours is irrelevant, the 6 to 9 hours referred to in the regulations is total working time over the shift :wink:

I don’t know what that quote is about, I can’t remember every post I’ve made on this board and without seeing the thread I’ve no idea in what context I said that :confused:

I’m guessing it was in response to someone suggesting you need a 30 minute break before nine hours working time regardless of the total length of the shift, but that is just a guess.

JS8576:

  1. I was under the impression that driving break and WTD break can double up and be used to satisfy both.
    Drive 3 hours, 45 minute break, OW 5 hours, Drive 2 hours [satisfied driving break 45 minutes/satisfied WTD of 45 minutes]

In your previous example you had enough break for the shift but still went over six hours working time without a break, five hours other work then two hours driving is seven hours without a break.

For the RT(WT)R you should not work more than six hours without a break at any-time during the shift.

Working Time Regulations[/list:u]

RT(WT)R Breaks

  • You should not exceed 6 hours working time without a break of at-least 15 minutes.
  • If your working time is more than 6 hours but not more than 9 hours you should have a total of at-least 30 minute break/breaks during the shift.
  • If your working time exceeds 9 hours you should have a total of at-least 45 minute break/breaks during the shift.
  • Breaks for the working time regulations can be split into separate breaks of at-least 15 minutes each.
  • Breaks that are at the immediate start of finish of the shift will not count for the working time regulations (breaks must interrupt the working time).

Up-to 6 hours working time.

  • No break is legally required.

If the shift is more than 6 hours working time but not more than 9 hours working time.

  • A total break/breaks of 30 minutes is required, this can be taken in 2 parts of 15 minutes each and at-least 15 minutes of the 30 minute break should be taken before going over 6 hours working time.

Or (You are legally required to comply with either the rule above ↑, or the rule bellow ↓, but not both)

If the shift is more than 9 hours working time.

  • Total break/breaks should be at-least 45 minutes and at no point in the shift should you do more than 6 hours working time before having a break of at-least 15 minutes.
  • So for the 6 hour rule a 15 minute break should be taken
  • No later than 6 hours working time from the start of the shift
  • And*
  • No later than 6 hours working time since the end of the last break.
    [/*:m][/list:u]

Breaks for the working time regulations (RT(WT)R 2005) can be split into separate breaks of at-least 15 minutes each and cannot be taken at the immediate start or end of the shift.
Driving breaks count as breaks for the RT(WT)R and where appropriate breaks for the RT(WT)R count as driving breaks.

55

JS8576 - try posting a general shift that you are likely to do and then we can see better …

example
0600 - 0800 work
0800 - 0900 drive
0900 - 1000 work
1000 - 1045 break
1045 - 1200 drive
etc etc

56

I think the mistake i’ve been making is just looking at the 6 hours as the FIRST 6 hours of the shift. What you appear to be saying is it is ANY 6 hour period.

If that is right then i think i’ve finally grapsed it :blush:

So the following would be okay:

5 hours work / 45 minute break / 5 hours work

Because i’ve not worked more than 6 hours without a break. And the 45 minutes satisfies working more than 9 hours.

But the following would be wrong:

3 hours work / 45 minutes break / 7 hours work

Because i’ve worked for 7 hours without a break. So in this case am i right in thinking that i could take a 15 minute break anywhere in that 7 hour period? I could also reduce the 45 minutes to 30 minutes. That way i have had 45 minutes break during the shift and i’ve not worked for more than 6 hours in a strectch?

So i need to look throughout the whole day (i think that’s what i might have meant when i said looking backwards and forwards).

The two important points are:
making sure i take a break before working a 6 hour strectch
making sure extra 15 minute breaks are taken (ANYWHERE IN SHIFT) if work exceeds 6 hours and again if exceeds 9 hours

I HOPE YOU NOT GOING TO SAY I’M STILL WRONG. IF I’M RIGHT THEN I’VE RINALLY GRASPED IT. IT’S A SHAME IT DOESN’T EXPLICITLY SAYS THIS IN THE VARIOUS DRIVERS HOURS DOCUMENTS.

Just wondering if it would be useful if you could put it all together in an easy to understand way and have ADMIN lock it on the newbie page so anyone else who’s confused can finally understand it.

Thanks for all your help.

57

you seemed to have got it :smiley:

The only thing I would do different is to take a 15 then 30 break so it covered the driving time regs as well as the WTD breaks

58

Glad to have finally grapsed. Am i the only one who just couldn’t get my head around it or do people get a lot of infringements for this sort of thing?

Sounds so easy now. I’m sure there are some complex examples which can throw you especailly if you haven’t planned it all in advance but it does say somewhere that employers are responsible for organising drivers work so they don’t end up breaking the law.

Thanks ROG / Tachograph. I’ve taken up too much of your time with this.

59

JS8576:
Am i the only one who just couldn’t get my head around it or do people get a lot of infringements for this sort of thing?

:wink: You are in the minority that tries to understand ALL of it before you start rather than figuring it out during the first few weeks like most do!
In your pursuit of knowing every nuance, have you looked at multi-manning yet? :wink:

60

No haven’t bothered with multimanning and i got a case study on that with module 2.

I wouldn’t want to do multimanning work. If i had to then he/she (preferably she :smiley:) can tell me what to do.

How common is multimanning? Are there some types of work where this goes on more than others?