is this ok 2x15 hours working + 4x13 hours working = 82 hours working time in a week
Got a feeling that you cannot work more than 60 hours in a week. With a 48 hour average working week over the reference period being used by employer. Obviously driving time would be limited to 56 hours (if that, depending on how much you had driven during previous week).
I’m still trying to get to grips with POA but this would still contribute to the maximum 60 hour working week. Just wouldn’t contribute to your average 48 hour week.
I’m sure someone else who knows more than me will set you straight.
mikeaber:
is this ok 2x15 hours working + 4x13 hours working = 82 hours working time in a week
For the RT(WT)R 2005 you’re restricted to 60 hours working time per week (Monday to Sunday), however working time does not include breaks or POA so you would need to have 22 hours of breaks and/or POA to bring the total working time down to 60 hours.
It depends for how many hours of those 15 and 13 hours shifts you are working.
You can work for a maximum of 60 hours in a week.
is that enforced? or is it like the 48 hour rule, its there on paper but nobody takes any notice
Every company I’ve worked at complies with the 60 hour working time per week.
For the RT(WT)R 2005 you’re restricted to 60 hours working time per week (Monday to Sunday), however working time does not include breaks or POA so you would need to have 22 hours of breaks and/or POA to bring the total working time down to 60 hours.
I don’t want to question you Tachograph as i’m sure you know a lot more than me. But are you sure you are right about POA/Breaks not contributing to the 60 hours maximum working week.
I was under the impression they just don’t have any effect on the 48 average over the reference period.
Neither break nor POA count towards working time, legally you’re restricted to 60 hours working time per week and an average of 48 hours working time per week over the reference period.
For a HGV/PCV driver working time is driving and other work, the definition of working time is the same for the 60 hour week as it is for the 48 hour average.
Lets say for arguments sake that i start work at 9am and would normally finish at 5pm. [which would make me a very lucky and happy driver 
]
So what would happen if you were told in advance that you’ve got a wait of 5 hours at 12 noon which you can record as POA. Does this mean that the employer can tell me you now have to finish work 10pm because the 5 hours was not working time?
I can’t get my head around this at all.
so if i work the legal 2x15 and the 4x13 i need to have it on breaks so that i get the 82 hour down to the 60 hour a week
Most documents on this say that:
Working time is not attendance or shift time.
That’s what i am having difficulty getting to grips with. In the past (not driving) i’ve gone to work knowing what time i was starting and what time i was going home. Am i going to be in for a bit of a shock when i get my licence and start work 
and find that this POA issue could keep me out working way beyond what i would have liked?
JS8576:
Lets say for arguments sake that i start work at 9am and would normally finish at 5pm. [which would make me a very lucky and happy driverSo what would happen if you were told in advance that you’ve got a wait of 5 hours at 12 noon which you can record as POA. Does this mean that the employer can tell me you now have to finish work 10pm because the 5 hours was not working time?
I can’t get my head around this at all.
What time you need to finish work is governed by the required daily rest period not how much working time or POA you’ve done.
On a single manned journey you must have completed a daily rest period of at-least 11 hours within the period of 24 hours from the start of the shift, if the shift starts at 06:00 you would need to start a regular daily rest period no later than 19:00, that’s because 19:00 to 06:00 (24 hours from the start of the shift) equals 11 hours.
The 11 hours daily rest period can be reduced to no less than nine hours no more than three times between weekly rest periods.
By the way if you started at 09:00 as in your example there’s no reason why you couldn’t legally work until 22:00 as you could still complete a regular daily rest period within the 24 hour period 
Another “by the way”, if you was waiting for five hours you would normally be better off booking it as break/rest rather than POA, this is because with five hours rest during the shift you could have a split daily rest period.
- A split daily rest period is when you have at-least three consecutive hours rest during the shift and at-least nine consecutive hours rest after the shift, this must be completed within the 24 hour period.
- A split daily rest period does not count as a reduced daily rest period even though the last rest period is less than 11 hours.[/:m][/list:u]
mikeaber:
so if i work the legal 2x15 and the 4x13 i need to have it on breaks so that i get the 82 hour down to the 60 hour a week
If during those 6 shifts of 82 hours you record a total of 22 hours break/poa then its 60 hours working time
mikeaber:
so if i work the legal 2x15 and the 4x13 i need to have it on breaks so that i get the 82 hour down to the 60 hour a week
To legally do more than 60 hours working time per week you would need to book a fair amount of break or/and POA.
By the way you can legally have three reduced daily rest periods (three 15 hour shifts) between weekly rest periods not two.
JS8576:
Lets say for arguments sake that i start work at 9am and would normally finish at 5pm. [which would make me a very lucky and happy driverSo what would happen if you were told in advance that you’ve got a wait of 5 hours at 12 noon which you can record as POA. Does this mean that the employer can tell me you now have to finish work 10pm because the 5 hours was not working time?
I can’t get my head around this at all.
That would depend on what your contract of employment said.
Ie, is 0900 - 1700 your contracted hours or are you contracted to be at work for a certain number of hours or are you expected to be working (driving and OW) for a certain number of hours - and what clauses are there for them to require you to work additional hours and at what notice?
You could work 0900 to 2200 and be able to take a full daily rest, so would be OK with the law, but whether your employer could expect you to do five hours past your normal finishing time is a contractual matter.
JS8576:
Most documents on this say that:Working time is not attendance or shift time.
That’s about right, working time is not the total shift time because the total shift time would include breaks and POA (if you use POA).
I forgot all about the daily rest requirements due to the confusion over the POA. But like you said in my example i could have worked until 10pm. The question is would the employer have expected me to do this?
I think what i’m starting to realise (unless i get a very regular job with known hours in advance) is that most drivers who have to get to grips with this are probably being paid a average salary based on the hours they are expected to work over the reference period rather than being paid in the way someone in a warehouse would be paid from working regular shift of 7am to 5pm.
i’m sure it will sink in at some point. 
Posted this without seeing previous reply. Contractual matter. Would i be right in saying the POA really is in the best interests of the employer rather than driver?
JS8576:
Would i be right in saying the POA really is in the best interests of the employer rather than driver?
Can work for both depending on what the driver wants to do or not do
Many drivers are paid by the hours so the longer on shift by using poa or break = more money
For those not on hourly pay the more poa and break used means longer on shift for the same money they would have got on a shorter shift
You are generally correct JS. Most employers like POA because it allows them to work you into an early grave.