Hi all. Quick question. So im sure in my own mind.
Can someone work all day in an office, then go out and drive for a night job? Only few hours but still driving.
yes, why not. as long as its within the 15 hrs max shift etc etc 
green456:
yes, why not. as long as its within the 15 hrs max shift etc etc
+1
If you drive within EU driving regs at any time during the week then other work must be taken into account and rest periods must be taken accordingly.
Is that office work ‘In Scope’ of tachograph?
If you don’t drive full time & normally do other (none Tacho relevant) work you should keep a diary of all worked hours, I’ve been told this personally by a VOSA peeps on the A52, I (of course) told them I hadn’t heard of this & (naturally) agreed to get one & fill it in accordingly from that day forward. (& that’s what I’ll tell them next time I get told)
Ross.
Just tell them you are a mature student and drive a lorry to pay off the extortionate loans, they dont need to know where you work
Just treat any second job as if it were “other work” on the single shift.
In other words, if you are doing monday-friday 8 hours driving 10 hour shift per day, then you WON’T be able to do even a 5 hour “external” shift monday to friday on top of it, as that would mean reduced rest of 9 hours too often in the same week. There’s no such thing as POA on an “external shift”. If you record it as “break” you’d be falsifying your tacho, so “other work” is the only way to record it legit. You CAN “not include” whatever time you spend driving your own vehicle to and from work though. 
Time from booking off from the second job and starting the next day’s shift cannot be reduced lower than 9 hours gap as per the usual rules regarding reduced rest.
You can’t therefore do a full “double shift” (over 15 hours within a 24 hour period) on ANY day. 
A second job isn’t other work though, unless that second job is driving.
What’s doing office work got to do with driving?
Can you work in McDonalds for 8 hours then drive for someone?
Is working in McDonalds ‘In Scope’ of tacho?
cieranc:
What’s doing office work got to do with driving?
Everything!!
bigr250:
If you don’t drive full time & normally do other (none Tacho relevant) work you should keep a diary of all worked hours
FACT!!
Ross.
Isn’t everyone forgetting the working time directive?!
What if you voluntarily opt out of the WTD?
I got stopped while I was loading an untaxed/tested lorry in Barnstaple recently. It just happened to be the TE for the south west coz I’m lucky like that. While she praised my use of the mode switch and analogue tacho readings, my failure to produce tachos (self employed, other jobs not connected with lorry driving in any way) and/or tachos resulted in a £200 fine, this was then revoked on her good will as she explained to me the rights and wrongs. I showed her my personal diary, she showed me the correct way to make manual entries.
Now I keep a spreadsheet of hours spent at work, driving and breaks and fill a tacho out every day for cross reference whether I am lorry driving, log processing/delivering, silage making, cattle work or anything else. I make sure my daily and weekly rests are in line, the WTD is followed and at the end of it all, my invoices to my employers also match.
It’s arduous and pointless when half the other road users arn’t required to do it but if I get pulled again (the likelihood being higher now) I want to be able to show I’m trying my best to follow their own example.
I would imagine your situation to be exactly the same as mine. Some weeks I may only drive a lorry for 3hrs but those 3hrs determine the rest of my working week.
NiceRoadTrucker:
I got stopped while I was loading an untaxed/tested lorry in Barnstaple recently. It just happened to be the TE for the south west coz I’m lucky like that. While she praised my use of the mode switch and analogue tacho readings, my failure to produce tachos (self employed, other jobs not connected with lorry driving in any way) and/or tachos resulted in a £200 fine, this was then revoked on her good will as she explained to me the rights and wrongs. I showed her my personal diary, she showed me the correct way to make manual entries.Now I keep a spreadsheet of hours spent at work, driving and breaks and fill a tacho out every day for cross reference whether I am lorry driving, log processing/delivering, silage making, cattle work or anything else. I make sure my daily and weekly rests are in line, the WTD is followed and at the end of it all, my invoices to my employers also match.
It’s arduous and pointless when half the other road users arn’t required to do it but if I get pulled again (the likelihood being higher now) I want to be able to show I’m trying my best to follow their own example.
I would imagine your situation to be exactly the same as mine. Some weeks I may only drive a lorry for 3hrs but those 3hrs determine the rest of my working week.
i can see you are going the extra mile! i am in same position as you these days as some weeks i dont drive at all then the next i may drive most nights.
but tbh all this paperwork is a total waste of time due to being self employed , if not billing customers by the hr its not going to be possible to prove how many hrs you spent doing what!
so how do those 3 hrs determine the rest of your week when you can make records for other work hrs and wtd show what you want anyway?
I do bill by the hour most of my jobs, one however is a day rate and never exceeds 9hrs inc breaks. It’s twice the money of any other job at £140 a day too!! The thing I don’t get though is what you tell them (VOSA) could like you say, amount to anything! ie You work for a salary, no hourly records and in full employment. Who knows if you finished in the office at 6pm, jumped in a milk tanker and drove till 2am then were back in the office for an 8am start? Three or four times in a week? If all VOSA are going to do at the end of it is take your word for it via your own written records… Why bother?
The issue I have a problem with is the ‘failure to produce records’. Basically, you get a fine INCASE you are guilty, what happened to Innocent until proven guilty? How come the Police have to prove a persons guilt yet with VOSA you have to prove your innocence?!
Whilst keeping a diary of what non-driving work you do may satisfy one VOSA person, do they all sing from the same hymn sheet?
If a diary/records are required then why aren’t they mentioned in the regulations? VOSA would appear to be making up the rules to suit themselves.
If I don’t do any other work other than two days a week driving are they going to accept that as true or fine me just in case I am lying?
Are they in collusion with HMRC to find out who is working but not declaring it?
The list could go on.
NiceRoadTrucker:
The issue I have a problem with is the ‘failure to produce records’. Basically, you get a fine INCASE you are guilty, what happened to Innocent until proven guilty? How come the Police have to prove a persons guilt yet with VOSA you have to prove your innocence?!
I see your point here and it does seem fine him now he might be guilty, however you have overlooked that the eu directive requires you to carry records of the the current week and the previous 28 days and produce them when required therefore this is the bit of the directive thats been broken and you recieve a fine for not the possible content of missing disks. Your not being asked to prove your innocent of infringments youve already proved your guilty of not carrying records by not producing them.
This may be possible, but would depend on exactly when he does his driving.
Any type of work either for the same or another employer (even McDonalds) has to be taken into account. So any ‘other work’ , since your last weekly rest period, needs to be documented (as per the VOSA guidelines).
Assuming that EU rules are being followed, if the office work and driving both fall within a 13 hour period and then 11 hours rest is taken before the start of any other type of work, then no problems under tacho rules. This could also be extended up to 15 hours max on three occasions between weekly rests, as per the reduced daily rest rules.
It is also possible to take split rest every day, so office for up to 9 hrs, rest for min of 3 hrs, drive for max 3 hrs, rest for min of 9hrs. Office hours could be reduced and driving hours increased; 8 & 4, 7 & 5, etc.
Where there is likely to be problems is under the WTD rules for mobile workers. If he drives more than about once every 2 weeks, he cannot claim ‘occasional mobile worker’ exemption and as there is no ‘opt out’ option for mobile workers, all his other work would be included under the standard (MW) WTD rules.
cerbrious:
NiceRoadTrucker:
The issue I have a problem with is the ‘failure to produce records’. Basically, you get a fine INCASE you are guilty, what happened to Innocent until proven guilty? How come the Police have to prove a persons guilt yet with VOSA you have to prove your innocence?!I see your point here and it does seem fine him now he might be guilty, however you have overlooked that the eu directive requires you to carry records of the the current week and the previous 28 days and produce them when required therefore this is the bit of the directive thats been broken and you recieve a fine for not the possible content of missing disks. Your not being asked to prove your innocent of infringments youve already proved your guilty of not carrying records by not producing them.
Fair point, Officer! Yes I see what you mean there. As it was in this instance I had a calender month worth of tachos with me, only it mean’t 8 tachos as I was only driving two days a week during that month. It was the absence of records for the remaining days which raised the doubt. It wasn’t all that clear to me, so with some guidance and cooperation from the TE I was in the clear and on my way. So I put this down to a school day and am now more in the know. 
Another small point, seeing as we have to pay for our training and licenses I assume VOSA have our detailed or access to them at least through DVLA. So when these rules change or get ammended, can hauliets and/or drivers not be notified directly??!! I keep a printed off copy of the driving regs with me now too just as another “I’m trying, Officer”!! Should I ever get stopped and have my attention drawn to anything.
cieranc:
A second job isn’t other work though, unless that second job is driving.
What’s doing office work got to do with driving?
Work is work, as far as the law is concerned. It doesn’t matter if you’re working in the office, cleaning it or even building it. It’s work.
Ross is absolutely correct. If you are working in another non-driving job, in other words NOT free to dispose of your time as you wish (which is the definition of resting according to VOSA) you need to keep a log of it if you drive part-time.
Just a question if i baby sit (etc) on an afternoon/morning,or is it only if you receive payment for it should i be putting this down as other work?