Will Wages Decline After Brexit For Truck Drivers

Franglais:
The odd ball characters may be good for a laugh down the pub, but I would rather see a serious academic holding the scalpel as I went under an anaesthetic, same with my bank manager. And my PM.

Being a serious academic may be a necessary condition for being an effective PM, but it is hardly a sufficient condition, and if all those with the necessary qualifications are malign in nature, then you have to just make do with whoever else is available.

Personally, I’d rather go under the knife with a barber, than say Harold Shipman, however capable the latter may be in principle, because he intends to use whatever capability he has to harm you.

Grandpa:
You have to be a special kind of stupid to believe that importing cheap labour would increase wage rates.

First you need to bury the idea that 1970’s style militant = bad.Not much point in replacing all that low expectation labour with our own all believing in the Thatcherite work ethic.

Rjan:

Franglais:
The odd ball characters may be good for a laugh down the pub, but I would rather see a serious academic holding the scalpel as I went under an anaesthetic, same with my bank manager. And my PM.

Being a serious academic may be a necessary condition for being an effective PM, but it is hardly a sufficient condition, and if all those with the necessary qualifications are malign in nature, then you have to just make do with whoever else is available.

Personally, I’d rather go under the knife with a barber, than say Harold Shipman, however capable the latter may be in principle, because he intends to use whatever capability he has to harm you.

Tut tut.
Comparing generalised barbers with one “cherry picked” example of a doctor.
:frowning:
.
Edit.
Sweeney Todd?

Franglais:
Tut tut.
Comparing generalised barbers with one “cherry picked” example of a doctor.
:frowning:
.
Edit.
Sweeney Todd?

To be fair there’s not a lot of difference between Shipman,Todd,and Liverpool Pathways.IE categorised as the wrong patient of the wrong age considered as being no longer worth the expense of treating.Much better to spend the money on our EU contributions instead.

Franglais:

Rjan:

Franglais:
The odd ball characters may be good for a laugh down the pub, but I would rather see a serious academic holding the scalpel as I went under an anaesthetic, same with my bank manager. And my PM.

Being a serious academic may be a necessary condition for being an effective PM, but it is hardly a sufficient condition, and if all those with the necessary qualifications are malign in nature, then you have to just make do with whoever else is available.

Personally, I’d rather go under the knife with a barber, than say Harold Shipman, however capable the latter may be in principle, because he intends to use whatever capability he has to harm you.

Tut tut.
Comparing generalised barbers with one “cherry picked” example of a doctor.
:frowning:
.
Edit.
Sweeney Todd?

:laughing:

The examples aren’t really the point, the point is that it’s senseless choosing someone who is in principle very competent, if his motive toward you is malign.

Burglars would probably make effective removal men, if they turned their hand to it, but you might as well take your chances with the Chuckle brothers as soon as entrust all your worldly things to a burglar just because he would be best placed to transport your goods if he were trustworthy.

It’s very often that the ideology of elites goes haywire and they simply have to be purged, and accept temporary dysfunction as new characters acquire the necessary experience.

Rjan:

Franglais:

Rjan:

Franglais:
The odd ball characters may be good for a laugh down the pub, but I would rather see a serious academic holding the scalpel as I went under an anaesthetic, same with my bank manager. And my PM.

Being a serious academic may be a necessary condition for being an effective PM, but it is hardly a sufficient condition, and if all those with the necessary qualifications are malign in nature, then you have to just make do with whoever else is available.

Personally, I’d rather go under the knife with a barber, than say Harold Shipman, however capable the latter may be in principle, because he intends to use whatever capability he has to harm you.

Tut tut.
Comparing generalised barbers with one “cherry picked” example of a doctor.
:frowning:
.
Edit.
Sweeney Todd?

[emoji38]

The examples aren’t really the point, the point is that it’s senseless choosing someone who is in principle very competent, if his motive toward you is malign.

Burglars would probably make effective removal men, if they turned their hand to it, but you might as well take your chances with the Chuckle brothers as soon as entrust all your worldly things to a burglar just because he would be best placed to transport your goods if he were trustworthy.

It’s very often that the ideology of elites goes haywire and they simply have to be purged, and accept temporary dysfunction as new characters acquire the necessary experience.

Motive is as important as ability?
Can’t disagree…
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But what have we here ?
An administration who have repeated ly said they won’t let employers suffer through lack of cheap labour, be it agriculture or fish processing. Who’s to say what industry will be next?
They seem happy to (selectively) quote Minford who says Brexit will destroy manufacturing and agriculture, but still be good for the country.
They are not IMHO motivated for the good of the whole country, or a majority of it, but just for their own little clique.
Intelligent or not, they are dangerous.

Franglais:
They are not IMHO motivated for the good of the whole country, or a majority of it, but just for their own little clique.
Intelligent or not, they are dangerous.

I agree but this is a change of tack, since you were originally characterising the Tory right as comical oddballs who should be rejected in preference to “serious” politicians.

The truth is that what unites both “serious” centrist politicians and the Tory right is their malignancy. The right have just added the trappings of clowns to seem different from the “sensible” politicians that people now know to reject.

Rjan:

Franglais:
They are not IMHO motivated for the good of the whole country, or a majority of it, but just for their own little clique.
Intelligent or not, they are dangerous.

I agree but this is a change of tack, since you were originally characterising the Tory right as comical oddballs who should be rejected in preference to “serious” politicians.

The truth is that what unites both “serious” centrist politicians and the Tory right is their malignancy. The right have just added the trappings of clowns to seem different from the “sensible” politicians that people now know to reject.

I certainly was concentrating on the harmless image of someone who may mess around and pretends to be a fool, as a form of modesty to hide a formidable intellect.
The ERG all call each other clever etc even if no one outside the group does.
I was trying to give pause for thought to those who seem to say Johnson is OK because he’s a giggle. Or Farage is like a publican.
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To add…
I don’t think they are odd balls but clever manipulators. Not intellectually righteous, but astute.
2nd addition.
Not even necessarily astute themselves, but just enough to hire in those that are.

[
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Edit to add.
We need to make decisions about our future all the time. Saying that
“No one knows what will happen”, although strictly true is a cop out. We need to make a best guess to buy insurance, save for a pension, plan a holiday. I tend to listen to the best majority of expert economists rather than maverick odd balls.
The odd ball characters may be good for a laugh down the pub, but I would rather see a serious academic holding the scalpel as I went under an anaesthetic, same with my bank manager. And my PM.
[/quote]
To be fair not going slate surgeons but economists hold no credibility you say you wouldn’t listen to a maverick economist but it was only the maverick economists who predicted the 2008 crash while all the ‘credible’ ones ignored all the indicators of what was about to happen. Economists are too closely tied into the financial sector and big business to be able to give unbiased advice or from left leaning academic institutions whose economics are along side John McDonnells and therefore any form of capitalism is bad
[/quote]
That needs some closer inspection.
.
Look at volcanology.
Experts can say a volcano will blow, but not accurately when.
Economists can say there is a bubble but not accurately predict when it will burst.
Other expert investors choose to ignore (or downplay) risk as they don’t want to be the first out of a still rising market.
They accept that risk, and underplay it to their clients. It pays to take risk in a rising market.
And even when it doesn’t actually pay, the perception of investors is that it does pay.
We as humans tend to remember sunny days, don’t we? We tend to remember our good gambles and ignore our losses.
It’s a big subject with a lot of research and literature on it.
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And what about reporting?
A newspaper or website with an agenda…most of them… may under report warnings? Post market failure it will then say there were no warnings, although there may well have been warnings, but that site was remiss in not reporting them.
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Your’s is a valid point, I reckon, but it ain’t that simple.
[/quote]
If we actually based predictions of the future upon what has actually come to pass already then these “forecasts” would be a lot more accurate, one might think. Silly thing is - that is the way the FINANCIAL world USED to base their “Forward Guidance” on! For example, the price of Gold has rallied more strongly in the past week than it has for the past decade. That means any Investment Banker would likely be filling their boots “going long of Gold” themselves based upon this recently sharply bullish trend in Gold at least. What’s not being paid so much close attention to though - is the rally in the bond markets, which suggest that lower rather than higher interest rates are on the way again… How does the hapless member of the public benefit from that though?

Don’t take out a fixed-rate mortgage - because you’ve got a pretty good idea that rates will NOT be going higher in the short to medium term, which is all one is worried about with these 2-5 year fixed rate “Products”, with “fixed” being the operative word there. :unamused:

A bigger picture would make the suggestion that a “Major currency is about to fail” upon looking at this new strong bull market in Gold… It used to be about “Inflationary pressures in currencies pegged to the USD” - BUT the rally in the US bond markets especially - suggest that “Inflation” is NOT the cause of this particular Gold rally.

If you build your town on the slopes of a volcano - then you’ll have bumper harvests likely for years and years, until the sudden eruption gets you.

Pompeii was a prosperous town - right up to August 79 when it got trashed by the eruption of Vesuvius right next door…
Vesuvious erupted in 1944 as well. But since then? Do people living in say, Naples feel they “have to get out of town fast” for their own safety?

I’d argue that most of the time, it is worth taking a high risk with a small liability - IF the upsides meanwhile are good enough.

The other way around is when we take NO risks with a HIGH liability. That is the situation that arises when “to act is to survive, to mark time is to perish”.

Daft thing there is that these “Extinction Rebellion” nutters seem to think “doing nothing about climate change” is THE latter scenario to follow.

I’d reverse that argument though, and say that Brexit is the thing that MUST get done, whilst Climate Change is something we cannot do anything about other than “prepare”. Canute will NEVER succeed in “ordering the tide to stop coming in”.

Brexit is “Risk Takers” vs “Risk Averse”.

Winseer:
Brexit is “Risk Takers” vs “Risk Averse”.

Brexit that turns the clock back to 1972 in terms of national government juristiction,economic policy and trade policy and union rights isn’t a risk at all.Any other type of ‘Brexit’ is an irrelevance.

Rjan:

mike68:
Reading some of the posts which some seem quite bizarre.

Could somebody please explain how non EU citizens who do not have the right to settle in this country unless they have valuable skills (Doctors Nurses and the professions that we are in short supply of) are now suddenly going to be able to come here in great numbers and drive trucks when nobody including those from the EU are no longer allowed.

Not what a man down the pub told you, proper documented legislation.

You’ve answered your own question man. Truck driving is already routinely declared “a valuable skill in short supply”. In London where the sheer cost of living requires higher wages to be paid, a toilet cleaner on the lowest possible wage can be declared “a valuable skill in short supply”.

what they can do is lift cabotage restrictions

the british government can do whatever it wants after no deal including allowing EU trucks to do domestic work. we wouldnt like it but when has a british government ever cared about haulage? or miners, steel or shipbuilding et al

Carryfast:

Winseer:
Brexit is “Risk Takers” vs “Risk Averse”.

Brexit that turns the clock back to 1972 in terms of national government juristiction,economic policy and trade policy and union rights isn’t a risk at all.Any other type of ‘Brexit’ is an irrelevance.

There are plenty of people about who preferred life in 1972 - to now

The risk-takers had their day from 1975-1979, and the result of the then Labour Government attempting to push back against Unionst Control - ended up with Thatcher.

I always respected Denis Healey as “The Best Prime Minister that Labour never had”. I had the good fortune to meet him on a school trip to the Museum of London when he was Chancellor.
I support Tony Benn’s views on Economics as well, who wanted to natioalized the banking system in particular. I still DO agree with that notion! As I’ve said before, I’m rather Left Wing on finance.

Callaghan trying to get the Unions to “show pay restrait” was a daft idea, that needed an Iron Fist to pull it off. The winding down of our old war-supporting industries could then have been done a lot more smoothly than the way Thatcher crushed it, put millions out of work, and introduced the economy to “Slave Labour” via the so-called “Youth Training Scheme” which was a cushy little number for employers to recruit dogsbodies, employ then during the government subsidy period ONLY, and then sack them on any pretence, before getting in the next wannabe worker straight out of school like I was.

Looking back, I’m surprised I wasn’t a Hard Leftie myself - but the Left have treated me rather badly over the years, and “when alienated, you tend to dive the other way”.

I didn’t vote Conservative for the first time until 2005 after Iraq. I didn’t vote Labour ever - because I was too young to vote during the 70’s period when I admired some of the people @ Labour.

I voted SDP for my first vote, and Libdem throughout the Ashdown years. I stopped supporting them after they let us down in coalition government 2010-2015. Since then, I’ve been a floating voter, who’ll vote for the candidate with the best chance of unseating the incumbent PM. That still ain’t Labour, and now it isn’t Libdem neither!

Winseer:
I didn’t vote Conservative for the first time until 2005 after Iraq. I didn’t vote Labour ever - because I was too young to vote during the 70’s period when I admired some of the people @ Labour.

I voted SDP for my first vote, and Libdem throughout the Ashdown years. I stopped supporting them after they let us down in coalition government 2010-2015. Since then, I’ve been a floating voter, who’ll vote for the candidate with the best chance of unseating the incumbent PM. That still ain’t Labour, and now it isn’t Libdem neither!

It’s a brave man who confesses to voting for Howard. :laughing:

All those catchphrases come flooding back - “are you thinking what we’re thinking?” and “don’t worry, I won’t hurt you!”. :laughing:

The truth is that the working man and woman has to get involved in Labour. The problem with “floaters”, who involve themselves with no particular party, is that they end up being flushed by those who do get involved.

All those years voting for Jenkins and Ashdown were effectively just votes for the Tories while they ate the working man’s children. The vote for Clegg literally was a vote for the Tories in the end.

Winseer:
Callaghan trying to get the Unions to “show pay restrait” was a daft idea, that needed an Iron Fist to pull it off.

If I’ve read it right you’re actually saying that it was a ‘good’ idea if he’d have smashed the Unions to do it like Maggie did.The early 80’s recession being the result.Wage restraint fixes price led inflation how ?.The reality was Callaghan and Healey were both EU puppets just like Thatcher working for the interests of the German elites at the expense of the Brit working class.While reducing incomes and increasing the labour supply while reducing the demand for labour predictably just crashes the economy being the antithesis of Fordist principles.

Rjan:

Winseer:
I didn’t vote Conservative for the first time until 2005 after Iraq. I didn’t vote Labour ever - because I was too young to vote during the 70’s period when I admired some of the people @ Labour.

I voted SDP for my first vote, and Libdem throughout the Ashdown years. I stopped supporting them after they let us down in coalition government 2010-2015. Since then, I’ve been a floating voter, who’ll vote for the candidate with the best chance of unseating the incumbent PM. That still ain’t Labour, and now it isn’t Libdem neither!

It’s a brave man who confesses to voting for Howard. :laughing:

All those catchphrases come flooding back - “are you thinking what we’re thinking?” and “don’t worry, I won’t hurt you!”. :laughing:

The truth is that the working man and woman has to get involved in Labour. The problem with “floaters”, who involve themselves with no particular party, is that they end up being flushed by those who do get involved.

All those years voting for Jenkins and Ashdown were effectively just votes for the Tories while they ate the working man’s children. The vote for Clegg literally was a vote for the Tories in the end.

We can blame the Tories for creating and then crushing the working person’s dream of owning their own house.
We can blame Labour for creating this sense of “international harmony” and then crushing us under the jackboot of foreign militants not happy to join our way of life - except for the freebies.
We can blame the Libdems - for “not doing anything about the two above” - even when they were in a position in Government to actually “make that difference”

We’ll later blame Brexit Party no doubt for NOT winning, so Corbyn, or rather his “Front bench from Hell” backdoors into the Orwellian Nightmare Coalition likely involving the SNP and Sinn Fein (Two Nationalist Socialist Parties!) whilst we’re not allowed to have a “Nationalist” party of the Right in this country, Boris’ current cabinet - the closest we’re ever likely to get TO that.

I reckon that come election day, there are more rich remainers than poor remainers - and they’ll reluctantly carry on supporting the Conservatives, even if they’ve done a Hard Brexit by that point - rather than chance their entire lifestyles upon any incoming Far Left coalition government “taking wealth away from people”.

That means that the Brexit Party and Libdems will likely NOT surge then, but be obliterated in favour of a thumping majority by the Conservatives most likely.
I don’t think there’s much chance of Labour Leave voters supporting Farage over Corbyn neither. The 2-3m voters that seemingly moved from UKIP in 2015 to Corbyn in 2017 - want a “Far” anything government. - That was all. I wonder if they’ll now support Boris too - now that he’s shifted the Tories back to the RIght again? Far enough I wonder?

I can’t see the “Far Center” or the “Hard Greens” getting much more support than they’ve already been given the past 3 years… I reckon they are a spent force already.

Rjan:

Winseer:
I didn’t vote Conservative for the first time until 2005 after Iraq. I didn’t vote Labour ever - because I was too young to vote during the 70’s period when I admired some of the people @ Labour.

I voted SDP for my first vote, and Libdem throughout the Ashdown years. I stopped supporting them after they let us down in coalition government 2010-2015. Since then, I’ve been a floating voter, who’ll vote for the candidate with the best chance of unseating the incumbent PM. That still ain’t Labour, and now it isn’t Libdem neither!

It’s a brave man who confesses to voting for Howard. :laughing:

All those catchphrases come flooding back - “are you thinking what we’re thinking?” and “don’t worry, I won’t hurt you!”. :laughing:

The truth is that the working man and woman has to get involved in Labour. The problem with “floaters”, who involve themselves with no particular party, is that they end up being flushed by those who do get involved.

All those years voting for Jenkins and Ashdown were effectively just votes for the Tories while they ate the working man’s children. The vote for Clegg literally was a vote for the Tories in the end.

Yes, I voted Tory in 2005, only to see the Labour candidate hang on to his seat in what became the 2005-2010 “smallest majority in the country” after the boundary changes made by Blair in his third term.
Ironically, this was the first time I hadn’t voted Libdem, only see the Libdems without my vote reach their high water mark of 62 seats under the Late Charles Kennedy. The Libdem Candidate, one Andy Stamp - became a turncoat, switching to Labour, and I’ve had on-line arguments with “my local Leftie” on a regular basis, - until my fb account got busted of course. Like millions of others, “I’m probababy better off without it” on a personal level, but it won’t make any difference to me voting against the Lefties at ever opportunity - because all their decent people are now long dead!