Will Wages Decline After Brexit For Truck Drivers

Franglais:

Carryfast:
Which selectively misses the point that we don’t have to stay with a Tory government after Brexit.

Which misses the point it is an ERG influenced Tory Gov who are there today, negotiating any deal, or organising our departure.
If the current bunch of idiots drives us over the cliff edge, a different driver, can`t stick it back into reverse.

Your selective memory is obviously running in overdrive again.

Cliff edges don’t get much worse than the one which Heath drove us over in 1973 followed by the events of the late 1970’s you know having to go running to the IMF.Followed by the early 1980’s recession and over 3 million unemployed which then took place on Europhile Thatcher’s watch.As for can’t be reversed you do know that any government not being bound by decisions of a previous one is part of UK law.

Conor:

maga:
Pretty much this. There will never be a labour “shortage” again after brexit. And if you thought the Romanians and Poles were cheap, you’re in for a big shock.

How do you come to this completely wrong conclusion? Anyone who comes to the UK will need to be coming for a job that’s on the Tier 2 Visa list or seasonal agricultural workers. Haulage won’t be going on Tier 2 any time soon. The number of places for Tier 2 vacancies are restricted and it takes a fair bit of time to get a Tier 2 visa. An employer wanting to get an employee under a Tier 2 Visa would have to prove they’ve exhausted the entire UK job market and not been able to find one and “can’t find someone who will work for peanuts” isn’t a qualifying reason - Border Agency would expect you to have advertised the vacancy with a competitive salary.

And then to finish off your argument there’s a thing called the national minimum wage and they won’t be working for less than that.

Christ there’s some bollox posted in this topic.

Conor, you seem to be a bright lad but you have a pretty blinkered view of how things are.
The game is rigged, the people at the top rig it to suit their own advantage so all your talk of how 'it" would never happen because of current rules and regulations, can you guess what is going to change in order to allow for this■■?

Moaning to your fellow plebs and calling bollex at their opinion isn’t helping as they are also in the same sinking ship, it’s the whole system that is wrong.
You could carry on regardless and keep clinging on in the hope of things might get better.
This is called apathy, or.
Accept that change is inevitable and get out there to make the best you can from the new opportunity that change has brought.

Instead of worrying about which low rent monkey will steer the lorry of this future, think of how we can make things, sell things, develop ideas. You remember, all the things that made the British Great.

AndieHyde:
Conor, you seem to be a bright lad but you have a pretty blinkered view of how things are.
The game is rigged, the people at the top rig it to suit their own advantage so all your talk of how 'it" would never happen because of current rules and regulations, can you guess what is going to change in order to allow for this■■?

Moaning to your fellow plebs and calling bollex at their opinion isn’t helping as they are also in the same sinking ship, it’s the whole system that is wrong.
You could carry on regardless and keep clinging on in the hope of things might get better.
This is called apathy, or.
Accept that change is inevitable and get out there to make the best you can from the new opportunity that change has brought.

Instead of worrying about which low rent monkey will steer the lorry of this future, think of how we can make things, sell things, develop ideas. You remember, all the things that made the British Great.

But there are a lot more elites at the top rigging the game in the case of the EU.

While who steers the lorry is obviously relevant in the case of a site meant for ‘drivers’.While inventornetuk/entrepreneurnetuk is obviously the relevant site for what you’re describing.The problem being that just about everything under the Sun has been invented and marketed.So it’s just a question of electing a government which makes sure that what’s sold here gets made here and moved by our own transport providers providing jobs for Brit workers not foreign ones.

Carryfast:

AndieHyde:
Conor, you seem to be a bright lad but you have a pretty blinkered view of how things are.
The game is rigged, the people at the top rig it to suit their own advantage so all your talk of how 'it" would never happen because of current rules and regulations, can you guess what is going to change in order to allow for this■■?

Moaning to your fellow plebs and calling bollex at their opinion isn’t helping as they are also in the same sinking ship, it’s the whole system that is wrong.
You could carry on regardless and keep clinging on in the hope of things might get better.
This is called apathy, or.
Accept that change is inevitable and get out there to make the best you can from the new opportunity that change has brought.

Instead of worrying about which low rent monkey will steer the lorry of this future, think of how we can make things, sell things, develop ideas. You remember, all the things that made the British Great.

But there are a lot more elites at the top rigging the game in the case of the EU.

While who steers the lorry is obviously relevant in the case of a site meant for ‘drivers’.While inventornetuk/entrepreneurnetuk is obviously the relevant site for what you’re describing.The problem being that just about everything under the Sun has been invented and marketed.So it’s just a question of electing a government which makes sure that what’s sold here gets made here and moved by our own transport providers providing jobs for Brit workers not foreign ones.

I sort of agree with you.
My sentiment is this.

Many decades ago, I saw Jerry Sadowitz take to the stage in Montreal and proclaim that “There are two things wrong with Canada. Half of them speak French. And the other half let’s them”

Also many decades ago, as an eager young man starting out with something to prove and the ink still wet upon my new LGV C,C+E entitlement, I round tripped northern Italy inside of a week, quite legally. Couple of weeks later when shipping out of Hull on a Sunday was still a thing, the other,older drivers on the firm cornered me and told me under no circumstances was I to do that again. For a multitude of reasons that potentially hurt them in the pocket.

So we could apply Mr. Sadowitz statement in the same vein.
“British truck drivers, half of them are prepared to work for ■■■■ all, And the other half let’s them”

Brexit or nah, life will continue to be a ■■■■ sandwich if you keep eating it. So the next time you meet another driver bragging about he is getting a pay rise because the Government of the day are increasing minimum wage.
Get up and punch the idiot. Or least gang up on him and explain where he is going wrong.

[/quote]
Not quite a load of ■■■■■■■■.

Many incoming (and existing foreign workers) WILL quite happily drive an artic for minimum wage though, plenty places in the North West still only just hitting £10 per hour for Mon-Fri days.

If haulage companies can keep putting bums on seats for a tenner an hour, why would they put it up? It might be uncomfortable for many on here but the fact is cheap labour WILL keep lorry drivers wages low and there is a plentiful supply of artic steerers available unfortunately. Don’t believe the hype, THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF LORRY DRIVERS.

this is why I love working in specialist haulage…our lot wouldn’t ever be able to use agencies, there’s never a plentiful supply of drivers that they would even think of taking on and the sector we work in is always short of drivers. General haulage is a tough industry to be in, companies under cutting each other, mergers and takeovers galore and foreigners etc stealing work too. I’m happy to stay away from all that and let the rest fight for work.

sammym:
IF there is no deal. For a short time there will be no change.

Then the churn of imported drivers will decrease. And the big transport co’s will do what they have done for a while and cry a shortage. No government, be them blue, red, pink or green will want to carry the can for not enough cans of baked beans on a shelf. So they will import drivers on mass.

Road haulage is too important for them not to do something. It’s the first sign to a normal person that something is wrong, and it’s easy to fix. Just make an exemption for EE drivers.

If Brexit is a sucess you will need the drivers. If it’s a failure you will need the drivers to hide that. Anyone who thinks wages will go up significantly is a fool and deluded.

There’s unlikely ever to be a shortage of baked beans on the shelves, because baked beans manufacturers have an interest in selling beans and keeping their own factories running.

What may happen, if the bosses can no longer import cheaper drivers, is that the cost of baked beans will simply go up marginally, as consumers are forced to pay for the wages demanded by drivers in the settled workforce (who are amply available, in the form of both licenced drivers, and of trainees who will quickly enter the game if pay and conditions improve significantly).

This will not result (as some often laughably say) in runaway inflation or drivers losing as much at the checkout as they gain in wages, because drivers do not spend all of their wages on baked beans, and drivers’ wages are only a small slice of the cost of putting beans on shelves.

The actual losers will be rentiers, whose bargaining power will not be increased by a reduction in cheap imported labour, and whose unearned income is not from wages and who thus will have no gain in income to set against the increased cost of their bean-buying.

Of course, people are probably living in a dreamworld if they think the Tories are going to cut bosses off from cheap imported labour. Just because we are out of the EU, does not mean the Tories cannot grant visas to EU workers who will fill what they deem a “shortage occupation”, or that they will not continue to increase the number of visas granted to cheap non-EU imported labour (which has already reached a record high under this Tory government).

Just look at the supposed nurse shortage. The Tories cut the bursaries and training courses available, creating a tax saving which can be passed on in tax cuts for the rich. Would-be nurses in the settled population can then perhaps be forced into competing for similar but much lower-paying jobs in care homes, for example. Meanwhile, they import ready-trained and experienced nurses trained abroad, who will also accept lower pay than settled nurses, and saving the cost of training entirely. The gains again then go to the rich in tax cuts. The rich are winners every time, whilst settled workers lose wages, foreign societies lose their skilled and experienced workers in which they invested, and the most surprising thing is that settled workers who actually have a vote on all this, keep voting for the Tories.

Rjan:
There’s unlikely ever to be a shortage of baked beans on the shelves, because baked beans manufacturers have an interest in selling beans and keeping their own factories running.

What may happen, if the bosses can no longer import cheaper drivers, is that the cost of baked beans will simply go up marginally, as consumers are forced to pay for the wages demanded by drivers in the settled workforce (who are amply available, in the form of both licenced drivers, and of trainees who will quickly enter the game if pay and conditions improve significantly).

This will not result (as some often laughably say) in runaway inflation or drivers losing as much at the checkout as they gain in wages, because drivers do not spend all of their wages on baked beans, and drivers’ wages are only a small slice of the cost of putting beans on shelves.

The actual losers will be rentiers, whose bargaining power will not be increased by a reduction in cheap imported labour, and whose unearned income is not from wages and who thus will have no gain in income to set against the increased cost of their bean-buying.

Of course, people are probably living in a dreamworld if they think the Tories are going to cut bosses off from cheap imported labour. Just because we are out of the EU, does not mean the Tories cannot grant visas to EU workers who will fill what they deem a “shortage occupation”, or that they will not continue to increase the number of visas granted to cheap non-EU imported labour (which has already reached a record high under this Tory government).

Just look at the supposed nurse shortage. The Tories cut the bursaries and training courses available, creating a tax saving which can be passed on in tax cuts for the rich. Would-be nurses in the settled population can then perhaps be forced into competing for similar but much lower-paying jobs in care homes, for example. Meanwhile, they import ready-trained and experienced nurses trained abroad, who will also accept lower pay than settled nurses, and saving the cost of training entirely. The gains again then go to the rich in tax cuts. The rich are winners every time, whilst settled workers lose wages, foreign societies lose their skilled and experienced workers in which they invested, and the most surprising thing is that settled workers who actually have a vote on all this, keep voting for the Tories.

Because at present there is no alternative the Labour party is now so far removed from the working class that it does not offer an option, the labour party should split, with the metropolitan elite from London leaving and eventually disappearing up their own arse, thus enabling the rest of the country a chance to vote for a Labour party that does have the vested interests of the working class at it’s core. Had to laugh at a Labour voter form Hackney calling brexiteers thick on the radio yet he can’t see the irony in having voted for Diane Abbott who opposes private education yet privately educated her son, the hypocrisy of London’s Labour MP’s knows no bounds and most only have contact with the working class when their bog is broke yet they are the ones influencing the party

Carryfast:
So it’s just a question of electing a government which makes sure that what’s sold here gets made here and moved by our own transport providers providing jobs for Brit workers not foreign ones.

Easy then ! If only our previous Governments had thought of that!

Carryfast:
As for can’t be reversed you do know that any government not being bound by decisions of a previous one is part of UK law.

Trade talks take years to negotiate. Maybe longer than the life of one Parliament…certainly true now. They cant be chopped and changed like income tax rates can. No-one would give a good deal, or maybe any deal, to a country that changes its position every couple of years. Why would they spend time, effort, and cash, making a deal that could be broken in a few months? Countries who dont honour deals, are like individuals who dont pay debts. They arent trusted and get worse deals in the future.

Franglais:

Carryfast:
So it’s just a question of electing a government which makes sure that what’s sold here gets made here and moved by our own transport providers providing jobs for Brit workers not foreign ones.

Easy then ! If only our previous Governments had thought of that!

Carryfast:
As for can’t be reversed you do know that any government not being bound by decisions of a previous one is part of UK law.

Trade talks take years to negotiate. Maybe longer than the life of one Parliament…certainly true now. They cant be chopped and changed like income tax rates can. No-one would give a good deal, or maybe any deal, to a country that changes its position every couple of years. Why would they spend time, effort, and cash, making a deal that could be broken in a few months? Countries who dont honour deals, are like individuals who dont pay debts. They arent trusted and get worse deals in the future.

Strange how we managed just fine up to 1973 in that case at which point the economy predictably went down the tubes under the weight of its EU contribution and trade deficit.Followed by the wholesale massacre of Brit jobs and Union strength and rights based on what the German banker elites and their Thatcherite quisling puppets wanted.

Carryfast:
Strange how we managed just fine up to 1973 in that case at which point the economy predictably went down the tubes under the weight of its EU contribution and trade deficit.Followed by the wholesale massacre of Brit jobs and Union strength and rights based on what the German banker elites and their Thatcherite quisling puppets wanted.

multpl.com/uk-real-gdp-per-capita

Franglais:

Carryfast:
Strange how we managed just fine up to 1973 in that case at which point the economy predictably went down the tubes under the weight of its EU contribution and trade deficit.Followed by the wholesale massacre of Brit jobs and Union strength and rights based on what the German banker elites and their Thatcherite quisling puppets wanted.

multpl.com/uk-real-gdp-per-capita

countryeconomy.com/gdp/uk?year=1972

statista.com/statistics/281 … ingdom-uk/

Carryfast:

Franglais:

Carryfast:
Strange how we managed just fine up to 1973 in that case at which point the economy predictably went down the tubes under the weight of its EU contribution and trade deficit.Followed by the wholesale massacre of Brit jobs and Union strength and rights based on what the German banker elites and their Thatcherite quisling puppets wanted.

multpl.com/uk-real-gdp-per-capita

countryeconomy.com/gdp/uk?year=1972

statista.com/statistics/281 … ingdom-uk/

Your first link shows UK growth up to 1972 including a negative GDP per capita of 6.8% in 1968. Since it illustrate nothing of post 1973 it cannot show any effect, good or bad from Common Market/EU membership. It is irrelevant to your assertion

Carryfast:
just fine up to 1973 in that case at which point the economy predictably went down the tubes

Your second link shows the annual growth of GDP per capita from 2000 to 2018. It is a measure of the change in wealth, not the wealth itself.

The link I provided is the actual GDP Per Capita and adjusted for inflation. I suggest it is a reasonable measure of a Nations wealth. (Not necessarily an individuals wealth, as distribution of wealth is variable)

The graph in your second link is therefore a measure of the gradient in the graph I provided. Note also the graph I provided is from a decade before we joined the EU up to 2018.
It shows the UK rising fairly steadily, before and after joining the EU (Com. Mkt). There is a blip around 2009 due to the world recession.

Apart from showing two different measures
“GDP per capita” and “growth of GDP per capita”
your two links show one time scale ending at entry into EU, and the other showing only time after entering EU. Neither provide any comparison to before/after EU entry.

sammym:
And the big transport co’s will do what they have done for a while and cry a shortage. No government, be them blue, red, pink or green will want to carry the can for not enough cans of baked beans on a shelf. So they will import drivers on mass.

No they want. Hauliers backed by the FTA and RHA have already tried the “there’s a shortage of drivers” line. Government did an investigation and one of the things they did was to ask DVLA how many people there were with LGV licenses. DVSA’s response was “there are more than enough license holders to meet demand so if they can’t find drivers it is because of other reasons”, polite speak for “you don’t pay enough or you’re crap to work for.”

AndieHyde:
Conor, you seem to be a bright lad but you have a pretty blinkered view of how things are.

I actually have a very wide view of how things are because I’ve been keeping my eye on quite a range of things. I know how immigration works, I know how its done elsewhere and I also know results of various enquiries there have been into the supposed driver shortage with the end result being that employers who can’t find drivers can’t find them because of a lack of people with a LGV licence.

Franglais:

Carryfast:

Franglais:

Carryfast:
Strange how we managed just fine up to 1973 in that case at which point the economy predictably went down the tubes under the weight of its EU contribution and trade deficit.Followed by the wholesale massacre of Brit jobs and Union strength and rights based on what the German banker elites and their Thatcherite quisling puppets wanted.

multpl.com/uk-real-gdp-per-capita

countryeconomy.com/gdp/uk?year=1972

statista.com/statistics/281 … ingdom-uk/

Your first link shows UK growth up to 1972 including a negative GDP per capita of 6.8% in 1968. Since it illustrate nothing of post 1973 it cannot show any effect, good or bad from Common Market/EU membership. It is irrelevant to your assertion

Carryfast:
just fine up to 1973 in that case at which point the economy predictably went down the tubes

Your second link shows the annual growth of GDP per capita from 2000 to 2018. It is a measure of the change in wealth, not the wealth itself.

The link I provided is the actual GDP Per Capita and adjusted for inflation. I suggest it is a reasonable measure of a Nations wealth. (Not necessarily an individuals wealth, as distribution of wealth is variable)

The graph in your second link is therefore a measure of the gradient in the graph I provided. Note also the graph I provided is from a decade before we joined the EU up to 2018.
It shows the UK rising fairly steadily, before and after joining the EU (Com. Mkt). There is a blip around 2009 due to the world recession.

Apart from showing two different measures
“GDP per capita” and “growth of GDP per capita”
your two links show one time scale ending at entry into EU, and the other showing only time after entering EU. Neither provide any comparison to before/after EU entry.

FFS.‘My graph’ shows one time scale that being 1972 which was the period ending ‘BEFORE’ we entered the EEC/EU in 1973.The figures being clear and self explanatory

Just like the random figures I posted related to AFTER that point.

Only a lying full on EU fanatic could possibly suggest that those figures show that the economy was stronger AFTER 1973 to date than it was in 1972.Or that we ‘entered’ the EEC in 1972. :unamused:

Now feel free to post the value of the pound v the US Dollar in 1972 and before v since we joined the EEC to date.Then awaits your Federalist bs that the Dollar isn’t the same currency that it was before 1973. :unamused:

Conor:
Government did an investigation and one of the things they did was to ask DVLA how many people there were with LGV licenses. DVSA’s response was “there are more than enough license holders to meet demand so if they can’t find drivers it is because of other reasons”, polite speak for “you don’t pay enough or you’re crap to work for.”

Ironically ‘crap to work for’ in large part being because government transport policy is dedicated to removing the ‘best quality work’ and returning the industry to its position in the 1930’s.IE a localised delivery service in which ‘drivers’ actually spend more hours in a shift doing ‘other duties’ than driving anywhere.

.

the maoster:
.

download/file.php?id=282389&t=1

It missed lobby to remove from the road what trucks are left,carrying distance full/bulk loads,leaving even more of the local multi drop etc work that we can’t find enough drivers for now at any wage.

Yes.

You will be able to recruit drivers from anywhere in the world.

This will reduce wages but it will increase your profits.

Franglais:

Carryfast:

Your first link shows UK growth up to 1972 including a negative GDP per capita of 6.8% in 1968.

There was no loss of GDP in 1968, certainly nothing as grave as 6.8%! :laughing:

Such figures shouldn’t have passed a sanity check. There was a single quarter in 1968 where the economy lost 0.6% (a tenth of what you state), but the other three quarters of that year combined to leave the economy several percent up YoY.

I think you must have misinterpreted the source.

As for 1973 and the Common Market, any analysis will be confounded by the effect of the oil shock in October 1973, which led to several subsequent quarters of negative growth.

The main problem in the 1970s was not loss of growth. In fact, the perceived problem was not that growth was generally negative, it was that growth wasn’t even higher, and that Britain was falling behind higher growth rates in Europe (a pattern that had first emerged in the 50s iirc).